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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Guilt, morality and empathy
    #19267890 - 12/12/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Is guilt a natural reaction based in empathy and emotional understanding, or purely a social construct? Why?


I've given my opinion on morality elsewhere, that it is a social construct, a linguistic code - not a natural emotional mechanism. Apparently many disagree or otherwise think that one who does not follow a moral code must be a psychopathic and murderous necrophiliac.
Anyways my own social navigation in the sense of a 'conscious' takes place on an emotional level, through empathy. It is not necessary for me to have an artificial code to experience emotional transference, to abstain from harming others for both of our sakes.

The same goes with guilt in my opinion, it is one of the levers on which empathy relies. At the same time the guilt emotion is abused in moral codes, tying in unnatural reactions to our natural psychological state (for better or worse).

Opinions?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19268006 - 12/12/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Empathy rules.
Moral code rules when empathy has engine trouble.
The law steps in when moral code is choking.
Both law and code can get out of step with reality but they are tough to get around.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #19268128 - 12/12/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes empathy ftw every time. :thumbup:  But if you can't muster any then we need a cop to keep an eye on you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19268567 - 12/12/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:

The same goes with guilt in my opinion, it is one of the levers on which empathy relies. At the same time the guilt emotion is abused in moral codes, tying in unnatural reactions to our natural psychological state (for better or worse).

Opinions?




I would agree with this.  Can you elaborate on how guilt is abused in moral codes?  Maybe I'm amoral, but I feel like I need a good reason to feel guilty.  I know there are a lot of people out there who just blindly follow what they're told is bad, but it seems like they ultimately have a choice whether or not to question it like we have.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Mr Person]
    #19269970 - 12/13/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wasn't sure about using the word 'abused' in that context, sometimes imo it clearly is abused (as in the case of shaming rape victims, or shaming drug users) but that's obviously not always the case.
Utilized would have been a better word


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Icelander]
    #19269983 - 12/13/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes empathy ftw every time. :thumbup:  But if you can't muster any then we need a cop to keep an eye on you.




Which it seems is where morality comes in, an agreed upon concept of social empathy. Unfortunately my own ideas of morality are so far from the norm that I'm as well off not thinking on it.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89] * 2
    #19271821 - 12/13/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think I have somewhat limited capability for empathy, but I don't think that makes me a bad person. My sole moral compass is a utilitarian system of logical directives, which I try to make as internally consistent as possible. Through social conditioning I can learn what makes people happy and what causes them suffering, and then I can apply that to every day situations regardless of whether I actually "feel" for them.

For instance, if I was in a situation where killing one person was guaranteed to save ten, I would do so without any sense of guilt or wrongdoing, because as far as my system is concerned it would be the right choice, i.e. the one which maximizes happiness and minimizes suffering.

The entire point of having a system of ethics is to live without regrets, IMO, so if you're feeling regrets despite making the best possible decision with the best possible data, you're doin' it wrong.

Another thing which makes me think I have lower empathy than most is that my ethical code does not count as "wrong" many things which society does. For instance I don't think there's anything wrong with cheating on a spouse if they don't find out (as long as you don't end up giving them STDs or something). I think a lot of our current social moral standards are inconsistent and illogical and I generally don't pay much attention to socially established morals unless they happen to overlap with my logical system.

Actually, the cultural standard of monogamy is a great example of the use of guilt to enforce "moral" standards for ulterior motives. The reasons for jealousy are completely biological, and those biological reasons are less valid now that contraception and paternity tests are widely available and effective. In other words, it's possible to have safe sex with multiple partners without the risk of pregnancy or STD, meaning there's no practical reason to consider polygamy or unfaithfulness "wrong." Nevertheless, most of our actions are rooted in evolutionary biology, which is why it remains common to make people feel guilty for "cheating."

I suppose the fact that I even have a system means that I'm not totally devoid of feeling the pain of others... but I'll admit my reasons for developing that system are generally academic and larger-scale; for the long-term benefit of the species and planet, rather than out of genuine caring for, say, the person sitting next to me on the bus.

Truly, though, I think the vast majority of people act out of selfish motivation; some just rationalize it with their feelings, while others don't bother to make the effort. In the end, actions matter more than intent.


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Edited by NetDiver (12/13/13 07:54 PM)


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19272230 - 12/13/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Wasn't sure about using the word 'abused' in that context, sometimes imo it clearly is abused (as in the case of shaming rape victims, or shaming drug users) but that's obviously not always the case.
Utilized would have been a better word





I get what you are saying.  I have been getting a lot of flak the last few days on another forum for defending the basic humanity of mass murderers like Adam Lanza.  Even though I feel completely justified in my moral stance on this (that murderers are deserving of empathy as human beings), it's still hard standing up to all that vitriol and hate.  People just get rabid and stop thinking, and the path of least resistance is to just follow the code ("killers are evil!!") without acknowledging any extenuating circumstances.  It wears you out, even if you are right and know it.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19272294 - 12/13/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Is guilt a natural reaction based in empathy and emotional understanding, or purely a social construct? Why?


I've given my opinion on morality elsewhere, that it is a social construct, a linguistic code - not a natural emotional mechanism. Apparently many disagree or otherwise think that one who does not follow a moral code must be a psychopathic and murderous necrophiliac.
Anyways my own social navigation in the sense of a 'conscious' takes place on an emotional level, through empathy. It is not necessary for me to have an artificial code to experience emotional transference, to abstain from harming others for both of our sakes.

The same goes with guilt in my opinion, it is one of the levers on which empathy relies. At the same time the guilt emotion is abused in moral codes, tying in unnatural reactions to our natural psychological state (for better or worse).

Opinions?




It is my opinion that you meant to say conscience as opposed to conscious.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: NetDiver]
    #19272365 - 12/13/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Your post makes me consider how much empathy I really have and how much my own social navigation is based in logic rather than feeling. Recently especially I've come to stop caring or feeling guilty about my actions, anything which might be 'crossing the line' has been looked at in the same way as a musical mistake.
Empathy and apathy don't really mix

:hamletmonkey:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89] * 3
    #19272747 - 12/13/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Guilt and empathy are for suckas.

My morality is whatever best serves myself.  Curiously enough, behaving nicely to the people around me ends up reaping nice rewards.  Funny how behaving "morally" ultimately, if one is rationally far-sighted enough, ends up coinciding with selfishness.  :smirk:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: deCypher]
    #19273537 - 12/14/13 05:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

I've maintained this position for some years now as part of my philosophy of enlightened hedonism.  If you really know what is going to be best for you (make you happiest) and you pursue it it will likely benefit others.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Icelander]
    #19273694 - 12/14/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm in favor of And approve of the message of Justice For All.



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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Icelander]
    #19274112 - 12/14/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm speculating that my own mechanisms are a mix of all three ideas at the moment, empathy, morality and selfish altruism


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Guilt, morality and empathy [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19274188 - 12/14/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

sounds right


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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