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OfflineTheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19266238 - 12/12/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myc_check1212 said:
I'm talking about now, in 2013. Most first world powers signed onto and operate by a code of rules. The deployment was lawful, destroy Saddams army is lawful, engagement of active military targets is lawful.

directly shooting unarmed populace is UNLAWFUL.




Remember Collateral Murder? We know soldiers murder civilians when things are going bad. That's what happens in war. Often the brass allow it and reporting it becomes a martial crime even though not reporting it is also a crime.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266328 - 12/12/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Congress never even declared any wars so yeah... law?  Lol.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266390 - 12/12/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.



There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266407 - 12/12/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

They were both quite unjust, actually.  There was no adequate reason to invade either country.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266433 - 12/12/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:Right now, in 2013, everyone in the military joined or re-upped KNOWING that they would be ordered to do immoral things.  They joined anyway.  That makes them immoral.



So you are in favor of disbanding the US military?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266437 - 12/12/13 03:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, but I'd certainly be in favor of a drastic reduction in size.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #19266446 - 12/12/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL.

What difference would it make? Those who comprise it would still be immoral, in your truly bizarre worldview.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266454 - 12/12/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

That's currently true, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't be at war.  Then our military might be used for national security and defense instead of grudge fights and political agendas.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266464 - 12/12/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

If no one enlisted, there would be no military. No military, no national security and defense.


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OfflineTheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266471 - 12/12/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.



There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.




If you mean might makes right, then no, it was just.

"From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the Iraq war] was illegal." -UN

They never actually declared war against Iraq either. Congress just approved an attack.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Phred]
    #19266481 - 12/12/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.


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OfflineTheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266508 - 12/12/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.




Agreed. If my Canadian military wasn't willing to send me to die in a desert for no reason, I'd join up for the experience and skills and the actual honor of defending your country. As it stands, it seems to attract the immoral who don't mind killing so others can make money. Like a mercenary but you don't even get to keep the booty.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266520 - 12/12/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheOtherAdamSmith said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Initially, sure...But people would enlist because we weren't engaged in unjust wars, and it's unlikely that the nation would use the few new enlistees to go stir up shit in foreign countries. 

Of course, the nation shouldn't be using its military like it does even though the resources are there.  I blame the government and the citizens in addition to the soldiers.  I can't hold all of the citizens morally responsible, of course, because many have individually chosen not to support the wars.  Similarly, I can't blame everyone in the government.  Soldiers, on the other hand, I can pretty much universally blame because all of them chose to participate in unjust wars.




Agreed. If my Canadian military wasn't willing to send me to die in a desert for no reason, I'd join up for the experience and skills and the actual honor of defending your country. As it stands, it seems to attract the immoral who don't mind killing so others can make money. Like a mercenary but you don't even get to keep the booty.



most people i know who have enlisted are of the "yea fuck sand niggers!" attitude. Sociopathic idiots who just want an excuse to be racist and kill.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266529 - 12/12/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
They were both quite unjust, actually.  There was no adequate reason to invade either country.



That is, quite frankly, deranged nonsense.  Do you believe in contracts?  Saddam Hussein was in violation of his contract.  Do you believe in law enforcement?  Afghanistan was harboring an international mass murderer.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266531 - 12/12/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's currently true, but if no one enlisted, we wouldn't be at war.  Then our military might be used for national security and defense instead of grudge fights and political agendas.




:flowstone:If no one enlisted we would have no military at all.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: TheOtherAdamSmith]
    #19266537 - 12/12/13 03:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TheOtherAdamSmith said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You're missing the point.  They knew before they joined or re-upped that they would be participating in an unjust war if they did so.  Knowing that, they still signed up.  That makes them 100% responsible for their participation in unjust wars.



There was nothing unjust about going to war with either Iraq or Afghanistan.  You can put that claim back into the ass you pulled it out of.




If you mean might makes right, then no, it was just.

"From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the Iraq war] was illegal." -UN

They never actually declared war against Iraq either. Congress just approved an attack.




Umm the UN and 50 other countries backed it.  You cannot make up facts.


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OfflineTheOtherAdamSmith
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266541 - 12/12/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The world supported Afghanistan, most of the US allies didn't support Iraq. The politicians from other countries who did got their ass beat at the voting booths.

What did Saddam do that demanded he be taken out? Saudi Arabia is one of the US' best friends, full of fundamentalist Sunnis, and they are where the 9/11 terrorist came from. They didn't deserve an attack?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19266543 - 12/12/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There really is a huge difference between the wars of today and WWII for instance.  In WWII, we were bombed by another nation, and all of Europe was being invaded by a tyrant.  People who enlisted, and those who were drafted, were actively engaged in defending our way of life.

Today, we invaded one country because they broke an agreement, and another because they refused to turn over a suspected terrorist.  Neither of those are a good reason to kill people.  If they were, why didn't we invade France for not turning Roman Polanski over?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19266554 - 12/12/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
That is, quite frankly, deranged nonsense.  Do you believe in contracts?  Saddam Hussein was in violation of his contract.  Do you believe in law enforcement?  Afghanistan was harboring an international mass murderer.



This is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen you write.  Are you saying that killing thousands for breaking a contract is just?  That is beyond stupid.


And name another time when we've invaded a country to get a fugitive.  That is simply ridiculous, dude.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: vitriol for vets? [Re: Enlil]
    #19266568 - 12/12/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
There really is a huge difference between the wars of today and WWII for instance.  In WWII, we were bombed by another nation, and all of Europe was being invaded by a tyrant.  People who enlisted, and those who were drafted, were actively engaged in defending our way of life.

Today, we invaded one country because they broke an agreement, and another because they refused to turn over a suspected terrorist.  Neither of those are a good reason to kill people.  If they were, why didn't we invade France for not turning Roman Polanski over?



why are you responding to me? :confused:


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