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Offlinepsykonautix
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Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 187
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Tripping so much it eventually stops working???
    #19255114 - 12/10/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

First off I don't believe that shit I just wanted to get some more experienced opinions.

I got an email today from a proclaimed "expert" in meditation containing the following statements:

"Ayahuasca opens up your mind so that you can experience
other dimensions and altered states...

But you can gain the same experiences naturally with the
In-Between technique...

So why should you learn the In-Between when you can have
similar experiences using hallucinogenics like Ayahuasca...
With far less effort?

The truth is, hallucinogens do have a lot to offer the
spiritual seeker.

The real question is, are you willing to pay the price?

Are you even aware there is a price?

The hallucinogenic experience, as tempting and
convenient as it is, is just a quick fix...

And despite the mind-bending experiences, the drugs cause
massive damage to the biological brain and more importantly
the dimensional mind...

Imagine a door and frame standing in distance.
This represents a doorway in your mind, a passage to other
dimensions and realities, to the unknown that you are seeking.

Hallucinogenics help you to open the door and BAM! You are flooded
with massive details, colors and experiences.

You have this astonishing, indescribable experience.

But there's a catch.

The experience still must be processed through your organic brain.
The brain must tag the experiences so that you can relate to it.

Anything your brain cannot tag is washed out.

And you are left with only 1% of that amazing experience.

What you are able to hold onto becomes like the memory of a dream and
quickly begins to evaporate from your conscious memory.

But that is not all...

Lets go back to the door. Each time you go through the door using
hallucinogens, you are kicking open the door and slamming it shut
behind you.

The damages are not seen at first but it does not take long before the
door is so damaged, you can no longer use it.

But there is a way to have the experience without causing damage...

When you go through the door using the In-Between...

It is like turning the door handle gently and opening the door with respect, so that the door is not damaged at all..."





He repeatedly talks about there being a price that you pay, and as I have personally had 50+ psyc experiences I have never experienced an inkling of this feeling of a "price" being paid.

Have any of you???


--------------------
Everything I say or post is a work of fiction and should be considered a lie.


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Offlinemisterjingo
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: psykonautix]
    #19255147 - 12/10/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's BS marketing spiel. It's a wonder why they didn't add the word Quantum in there or resonant frequencies, just to up the woo woo factor.


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Offlinepsykonautix
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Registered: 07/21/13
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: misterjingo]
    #19255164 - 12/10/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It's so sad that people choose to exploit instead of teach


--------------------
Everything I say or post is a work of fiction and should be considered a lie.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 13,361
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: psykonautix]
    #19255245 - 12/10/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, he is very right on some points. There are "prices to pay" with hallucinogens like any other drugs. HPPD/DP/DR/psychosis etc. Not entirely common for all trippers, but a risk none the less. Also, following a meditative path and tripping are two different things. Tripping is like a shortcut there. While that's great for throwing you through the door and exposing you to that reality, such a shortcut is not going to give you all the grounding points that you figure out the hard path. Ie, you have nothing in your brain to distinguish your experience being valid versus just being a wild hallucination.

It's like the difference between learning physics and watching a documentary. One, you're just listening to someone tell you everything, but when a question pops up in your head you don't have any proper grounding to answer it and all your faith goes out the window or at the least lies in uncertainty. In the other, you spend years of disciplined practice learning and understanding the subject and so you can fruitfully engage anything that would otherwise shake your ground.


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Offlinemongolian
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Registered: 10/04/13
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Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19255309 - 12/10/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm someone who's done tons of shrooms in the past 15 years, but I've never been very spiritual since my belief is based totally scientific. (on my way to a Ph.D. specialized in neuroscience)
I'd say, the risks like psychosis, HPPD etc. obviously exist, but are minimal to non existent when these substances are handled correctly, by the correct persons, in the correct "state of mind".
I also say you get a shit from your trips, seeing atoms flying around, someone telling you how the world works and this spiritual stuff, from hallucinogens as well as from meditation. I've spent enough years on this topic to say that these are just two ways to access your subconciousness, achieving very similiar effects. Both "just make you high as a cloud, but leaving behind the impression that you learned something fundamental about how the world works from your experience", as my prof said. You can indeed learn fundamental things about society or your aims in life, but most of what you see/experience is just subconciousness-mess, a way of processing data ("incorrectly")like in a dream state.

This is just my opinion, if you are spiritual, please don't feel offended! Scientist like to generalize things and see themselfs as the only thruth.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: mongolian]
    #19255357 - 12/10/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mongolian said:
I'm someone who's done tons of shrooms in the past 15 years, but I've never been very spiritual since my belief is based totally scientific. (on my way to a Ph.D. specialized in neuroscience)
I'd say, the risks like psychosis, HPPD etc. obviously exist, but are minimal to non existent when these substances are handled correctly, by the correct persons, in the correct "state of mind".
I also say you get a shit from your trips, seeing atoms flying around, someone telling you how the world works and this spiritual stuff, from hallucinogens as well as from meditation. I've spent enough years on this topic to say that these are just two ways to access your subconciousness, achieving very similiar effects. Both "just make you high as a cloud, but leaving behind the impression that you learned something fundamental about how the world works from your experience", as my prof said. You can indeed learn fundamental things about society or your aims in life, but most of what you see/experience is just subconciousness-mess, a way of processing data ("incorrectly")like in a dream state.

This is just my opinion, if you are spiritual, please don't feel offended! Scientist like to generalize things and see themselfs as the only thruth.




For the record, being scientific and spiritual are not mutually exclusive. After all, what are you studying but the mind of god


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Offlinemongolian
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19255436 - 12/10/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

You made a point that I discussed very often with other scientists, mainly with christs.
I asked them how they could still believe in god and some even got angry at me for asking this. I mean, if you truly believe in something, you should be able to discuss it and make your points, or you haven't thought about it and just accepted what you were born into, without questioning. (I wonder how such people make it to university, since questioning everything is the main point of scientific education)
The "true christs" under them had very diverse reasons for their belief and told totally different stories about their "way to god".
They had one thing in common: They never answered to my question "where god would fit into our universe. It's nearly totally explainable how our universe was created, it (not all yet) all makes sense seen from a physicists point of view. I just don't need a god to explain this and I honestly think that he wouldn't fit anywhere into rationality. I also know why people belief in anything/are spiritual, as explained by socialogists. It all makes perfect sense to me. No need for a god or an explanation that is irrational. It just is as it is because it makes sense to be so.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: mongolian]
    #19255484 - 12/10/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mongolian said:
You made a point that I discussed very often with other scientists, mainly with christs.
I asked them how they could still believe in god and some even got angry at me for asking this. I mean, if you truly believe in something, you should be able to discuss it and make your points, or you haven't thought about it and just accepted what you were born into, without questioning. (I wonder how such people make it to university, since questioning everything is the main point of scientific education)
The "true christs" under them had very diverse reasons for their belief and told totally different stories about their "way to god".
They had one thing in common: They never answered to my question "where god would fit into our universe. It's nearly totally explainable how our universe was created, it (not all yet) all makes sense seen from a physicists point of view. I just don't need a god to explain this and I honestly think that he wouldn't fit anywhere into rationality. I also know why people belief in anything/are spiritual, as explained by socialogists. It all makes perfect sense to me. No need for a god or an explanation that is irrational. It just is as it is because it makes sense to be so.




I think you're missing my point. I'm not trying to use god to explain physics, i'm using physics to explain god. "God" does not fit into the universe because they are one and the same.

It's really more of a perspective thing associated with philosophys like pantheism. I'm not expecting you to take it up, i just hate that people see science and spirituality as two opposing things when in reality they are the logical and emotional appreciations of the same reality. But people get tripped up on the word "god" and "spirituality" and "materialism" but all these words become highly ambiguous when you realize you are discussing one reality not bound by language


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Offlinemongolian
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Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19255519 - 12/10/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

O.K. now I get what you said, "the mind of god" made god too much of a person for me to understand that you are talking about a more pantheism influenced point of view.


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Offlinepsykonautix
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Registered: 07/21/13
Posts: 187
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: mongolian]
    #19255669 - 12/10/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So back to the topic, are we at a general consensus that I shouldn't worry about doing it too much in regards to losing the connection


--------------------
Everything I say or post is a work of fiction and should be considered a lie.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Registered: 06/20/13
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: psykonautix]
    #19255764 - 12/10/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

No, he's a God damn fool. All those elitists yoga wanna bes wishing fake for some kind of enlightenment through sitting on a rock for hours at a time, breathing steadily. They can't fool me. Enlightenment is experiences and experiences are fulfilled by acting and doing, not by channeling energies from some bull shit realm but by seeing and learning, not by pretending to know shit through passive techniques. If you really want enlightenment then you have to taste it, it's not gained by thinking about shit, it's gained by experiencing shit and THEN pondering it, not the other way around. Psychedelics are permenant spiritual gateways, that's why I've changed. It wasn't through bull shit meditation and veganism. It was from watching and reacting and then pondering those reactions and comparing them to natural phenomenon and ten taking that with me deeper into life. No one is spiritually perfect and by not acknowledging our spiritual progression, they never will be. You may think this rant is sorta one sided and it is but hey, I'm sick of all the fucking elitism from spiritual purists, their technique does have merit and it should be practiced but without experience, their practice is void because they have no comparable information to ponder upon. They simply have self and that is why they judge and have become elitists and purists.


--------------------
...also, go to hell, huh?


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OfflineDeckard_Cain
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19255887 - 12/10/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There is so much BS in that writing from the original quote. It'd be quite a task to address it all and even then there would be certain ideas which are not covered or cannot be covered. I'd say to get an idea about it meditate, try to have a very open mind (empty cup) and consider it from every imaginable angle and feeling. The individual can discern more for themselves than any writing can relate on this topic.

"1
Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth." - Thich Nhat Hanh (From the book Interbeing)

"No one is smarter than you are" - Terence Mckenna

Think for yourself ... it is the most important thing. Figure things out for yourself.

Personally I do yoga (which includes all practices when you get down to it) and am friends with mushrooms. Do some breathing, do some stretching, grow some shrooms, eat some shrooms, sing some songs. Om :smile:


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Offlinepsykonautix
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Registered: 07/21/13
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Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: Deckard_Cain]
    #19255897 - 12/10/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

^ well said thank you


--------------------
Everything I say or post is a work of fiction and should be considered a lie.


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: psykonautix]
    #19255921 - 12/10/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Not causing damage... i am sorry to tell you this is not true..It isnt the seretonin release that causes problem or anything really with the hallusinogen.. it is the imformation... It us true whatyou say about the door being opened and shut.. But people need to work through and integrate their trips before takkng an other.. meditate upon it and process the subconsciouss data before one gets more.. if not you will defeat the purpose of opening up and rather encapsulate it... balance you know... both trip and meditatiln..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19255926 - 12/10/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
No, he's a God damn fool. All those elitists yoga wanna bes wishing fake for some kind of enlightenment through sitting on a rock for hours at a time, breathing steadily. They can't fool me. Enlightenment is experiences and experiences are fulfilled by acting and doing, not by channeling energies from some bull shit realm but by seeing and learning, not by pretending to know shit through passive techniques. If you really want enlightenment then you have to taste it, it's not gained by thinking about shit, it's gained by experiencing shit and THEN pondering it, not the other way around. Psychedelics are permenant spiritual gateways, that's why I've changed. It wasn't through bull shit meditation and veganism. It was from watching and reacting and then pondering those reactions and comparing them to natural phenomenon and ten taking that with me deeper into life. No one is spiritually perfect and by not acknowledging our spiritual progression, they never will be. You may think this rant is sorta one sided and it is but hey, I'm sick of all the fucking elitism from spiritual purists, their technique does have merit and it should be practiced but without experience, their practice is void because they have no comparable information to ponder upon. They simply have self and that is why they judge and have become elitists and purists.




I think you are vastly missing the point of these people and i would definitely not consider a majority of them elitists if they are familiar with their own practice (because it's kind of against the whole concept) The purpose of self reflection is to look past the ego. To see who you are beyond the words and labels you identify with, and there is a very very solid reason for it. When you finally reach it, everything falls into place. It's not a substitute for experience. It's not a substitute for doing science, or playing video games, or having a job. Enlightenment is not experience, experience is experience. Enlightenment is the recognition of your core being beyond the things you identify with. It's essentially an all day every day ego-death.

Now, you're probably going to want to disagree with me and say i'm being vague and it doesn't make any sense... But there is a reason why people ramble on about this stuff in elaborate metaphors without ever actually touching a solid point. Because the whole concept is, it's not attached to words. It's not attached to meaning. No one can introduce you to it as it is within you beyond experience and beyond words. They can guide you. Use endless metaphors until one of them clicks with you and points you in the right direction. But it simply isn't possible to talk about the "infinite" in language.

Now at the risk of sounding like a shot out hippy, i'll leave the rest of this to someone who's been doing this longer and can give a better explanation than me because i know how ridiculous this shit comes off to people who haven't been truly exposed to it.


Edited by JacksonMetaller (12/10/13 03:27 PM)


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Offlinebishlap
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19256103 - 12/10/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

sounds like the ramblings of someone who id over indulging in dmt..

its all the brain, I dont know whether to correct or ignore people like that, neither works.


--------------------
"If you're not worried that you took way
to much, you didn't take enough" -
Terrence McKenna

There is no soul, only the ego dies.
The body was never yours.


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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: bishlap]
    #19256391 - 12/10/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bishlap said:
sounds like the ramblings of someone who id over indulging in dmt..

its all the brain, I dont know whether to correct or ignore people like that, neither works.




exactly what i said. sounds like that shit. sounds like it. but the sounds aren't what i'm pointing to which shows that the point has clearly been missed. identity is based in language, language is symbols, so if your identity is based on symbols who are you in reality? btw, this isn't really DMT related or psychedelic related in general. I've certainly had experiences like this on psychedelics but most of what i'm getting at is just from general philosophy. concepts like this have been around since the invention of buddhism but people often want to reduce it to "sounds like you took too many drugs" simply because they're not interested in investing the time to understand it. physics sounds pretty ridiculous at face value too, but obviously there is a methodology to it. this is no different. it's not something you pick up on a wikipedia article and it makes sense. it takes contemplation.

simple exercise here... introduce yourself without resorting to arbitrary labels. it's insanely hard, and for some people it'll point them at the right idea.

anyways, when that finally clicks you will understand why people recommend things like meditation. that's all i'm really getting at here. i was skeptical of the entire thing for a very long time but recently it's been coming together a hell of a lot better. and i'm as lucid as i've ever been and have actually not been doing drugs lately so you can write that off. I just simply don't have the diction to put it as well as some can. so my point isn't to convince anyone, but simply to say... those practices do have a purpose. and that purpose is going to carry you farther than simply taking psychedelic drugs and not doing anything with it.


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Offline06tekos
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #19256620 - 12/10/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

SWIM has had years full of vision quests and still to this day feels every effect and sees everything as if it where the first time. Given the quality of the psychedelic is good.


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InvisibleArea 54
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: misterjingo]
    #19257215 - 12/10/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

misterjingo said:
It's BS marketing spiel. It's a wonder why they didn't add the word Quantum in there or resonant frequencies, just to up the woo woo factor.





Love this! was thinking the same thing.:thumbup:


--------------------
The above posting is completely fictional and is intended for entertainment purposes only, some pictures are gathered from online sources while others may have been taken by fictional deities.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Tripping so much it eventually stops working??? [Re: bishlap]
    #19265482 - 12/12/13 12:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

My opinion is more realistic.

You may THINK you've transcended or may think you know some spiritual secret beyond the eyes of us mere mortals but so do ALL the religions and cults around the world. The Buddhist meditation vegan philosophy bull shit is just that. You're conforming to a spiritual society. Spiritual prowess exceeds ritualistic thinking. It's not some one path type thing like a religion. You can find your own spiritual resolve anywhere you please. It's your personal philosophy that will lead you down your own spiritual path, not by becoming some mindless drone that follows great men.

I don't know said this but it's a great quote...I'm paraphrasing by the way...

"Don't strive to be like the wisest of men, seek what they sought."

Basically travel your own path and be unique, if you want to meditate then do it but don't do it because some guy in a white robe does it and claims to have transcended. Do it cause your heart and soul guides you. That said, that goes back to what I mentioned earlier.

Experience life, meditation is a part of experience but only if you want to travel that path but make it unique, personalize your path to the spiritual world.

Meditation isn't for me, I've tried it. Takes too much time and discipline. I'd rather be in nature making music, that's the meditation that I need, it's basically the same thing.


--------------------
...also, go to hell, huh?


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