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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19261031 - 12/11/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: You honestly think it's that cut and dry?
A crime is a crime, your motivation should not be used to increase penalties arbitrarily. Even if I were to scream "I hate fags" out loud as I committed a crime against a homosexual. How could anyone possibly know the real motivation for my actions?
Arbitrarily? The penalties are increased for very specific reasons that are outlined in our laws. Nobody ever knows with absolute certainty what somebody's motivations are, ultimately a jury must use their discretion when rendering an impartial verdict.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19261042 - 12/11/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: You honestly think it's that cut and dry?
A crime is a crime, your motivation should not be used to increase penalties arbitrarily. Even if I were to scream "I hate fags" out loud as I committed a crime against a homosexual. How could anyone possibly know the real motivation for my actions?
Just as there are aggravating factors to consider when meting out punishment, there are also mitigating factors.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19261054 - 12/11/13 04:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You could never prove what's in my or anyone elses head. It's just a charge that get's slapped on under a very specific set of circumstances.
I would call that arbitrary
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: LunarEclipse]
#19261066 - 12/11/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I guess that's true, I kind of fucked up my own argument there. But that would be the same charge, higher penalties. So there is a big distinction
But a hate crime makes it a whole new standard to prove, and it's impossible beyond reasonable doubt most of the time. And should be handled at sentencing
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19261160 - 12/11/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: Well I guess that's true, I kind of fucked up my own argument there. But that would be the same charge, higher penalties. So there is a big distinction
But a hate crime makes it a whole new standard to prove, and it's impossible beyond reasonable doubt most of the time. And should be handled at sentencing
I'm not in favor of hate crime legislation, and agree that sentencing is the time to consider aggravating and mitigating circumstances. For instance, if a guy robbed a gay guy and beat his little faggot ass would that be worse than him scamming some little old lady out of her life savings but had befriended her? Personally I see more hate in the robbing of the little old lady while being a complete phony. The little faggot will get his life back, that poor old lady is a stressed out basket case. She blew her life savings on greed, but didn't even know she was being greedy because "all her friends" were doing it.
But these white collar thieves often get off light because it as a property crime.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19261174 - 12/11/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: You could never prove what's in my or anyone elses head. It's just a charge that get's slapped on under a very specific set of circumstances.
I would call that arbitrary
I would say arbitrary would be a punishment doled out by a personal whim of a judge who disliked you or having to spin a wheel to determine your punishment. These are specific crimes with specific punishments. What it seems you're saying is that you dislike liability that is based on one's motive, after all, "a crime is a crime". Sounds a bit more 'cut and dry' to me.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19261195 - 12/11/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So rich people should be held to accountable for fraudulent exchanges with them and poor ignorant people?
Where do you draw the line. How do you prove it? The answer for our justice system is cut and dry. There is no such thing as a "hate crime"
It's an arbitrary charge
Just because a crime doesn't come with an obvious motivation doesn't mean we should start throwing on charges that we can't reasonably prove
Edited by Juicin (12/11/13 04:34 PM)
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19261544 - 12/11/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: So rich people should be held to accountable for fraudulent exchanges with them and poor ignorant people?
What? Elaborate? As far as I can tell, that came out of nowhere. I don't know what you're talking about, I'd need specifics.
Quote:
Where do you draw the line. How do you prove it? The answer for our justice system is cut and dry. There is no such thing as a "hate crime"
It's an arbitrary charge
Just because a crime doesn't come with an obvious motivation doesn't mean we should start throwing on charges that we can't reasonably prove
Whose justice system, the U.S.? I think the laws vary by state as well, in many hate crime charges only apply to specific offenses (assault, battery). Many criminal offenses, including possession of a controlled substance with the intent to deliver, aggravated battery or assault on a police officer, or murder in the first degree, require additional intent elements to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not unique to hate crime statutes. There are additional evidentiary burdens to prove such crimes have been committed, and they are harder to prosecute, but sometimes they successfully are. I'm glad about this, but then the likelihood of me committing a violent crime is absolutely nil. I say fuck the violent with everything we can use against them.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (12/11/13 05:32 PM)
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19262210 - 12/11/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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My point was that if a crime has an obvious motivation (profit) all other motivations are put aside. You could say that targeting poor people to defraud them is a hate crime. I have never heard of hate fraud tho. Or picking on predominately black or latino customers. But you would never say that even tho they were trying to defraud minority customers. It was for cash so it's not racist.
The only "hate crimes" are ones that have no obvious motive. So we tag it with one like "hate crime". When really there is a whole clusterfuck of reasons that a person commit does something that would otherwise seem irrational.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19262298 - 12/11/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I thought that might have been what you were implying, which is why I stated:
Quote:
many hate crime charges only apply to specific offenses (assault, battery)
it does vary by state, but i'm not honestly not sure if defrauding poor people could be considered a hate crime somewhere. not where i live, but it's a big world
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19262476 - 12/11/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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For example before the housing bubble popped lenders were targeting Latinos and African American customers and defrauding them by giving them worse rates than they qualified for, sub prime mortgages is the term i think. For what reasons who knows, maybe they're easy marks. But no one asks because it was for profit, thus not a hate crime. Even though people were clearly actively seeking out minorities to defraud. Why wouldn't you lay a hate crime on some one who is profiling their customers based on race then committing fraud? I don't see the difference between that and charging some one with a hate crime because they were part of a specific social group.
There is no reason not to apply this to all crimes, and just start tacking it on everywhere. If "don't fuck with minorities" needs to be a message. But after creating the largest prison industrial complex on the planet, I think we can safely say draconian sentencing is not the answer to our woes. Certainly not making up arbitrary charges to tack on time
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19262604 - 12/11/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The purpose of the sentence-enhancing feature is to attach more serious penalties to violent bias-motivated crimes in an effort to demonstrate the seriousness with which we, as a society, address hate violence.
Hate crimes laws punish violent acts, not beliefs or thoughts, even violent thoughts. Hate crime statutes do not punish, nor prohibit in any way, name-calling, verbal abuse or expressions of hatred toward any group even if such statements amount to hate speech. It is only when the perpetrator crosses the line from speech to violent criminal action that hate crime laws might come into effect.
Personally, I'd be quite happy to see reform on 'draconian' laws that imprison victimless drug offenders. However, I'm quite happy to keep violent thugs away far away from me, by any means possible .
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19262945 - 12/11/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No if they were punishing a violent act they wouldn't need to tack "hate" onto it. We already have charges for violent crimes, making it a "hate crime" implies that you have done more than commit a violent crime. Otherwise why the separate charge?
We have some extremely harsh sentencing for all crimes, drug laws included. Life in prison in most places is considered cruel and we hand it out like candy.
Such a slippery slope to go down for no reason.
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niteman

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 1,050
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19263078 - 12/11/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: So rich people should be held to accountable for fraudulent exchanges with them and poor ignorant people?
Where do you draw the line. How do you prove it? The answer for our justice system is cut and dry. There is no such thing as a "hate crime"
It's an arbitrary charge
Just because a crime doesn't come with an obvious motivation doesn't mean we should start throwing on charges that we can't reasonably prove
Damn man something we can actually agree on. Kudos
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19263126 - 12/11/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: No if they were punishing a violent act they wouldn't need to tack "hate" onto it. We already have charges for violent crimes, making it a "hate crime" implies that you have done more than commit a violent crime. Otherwise why the separate charge?
We have some extremely harsh sentencing for all crimes,
Of course they're punishing a violent act, I described it as a sentence-enhancing feature to violent crimes, which is why defrauding is not applicable. Higher-level violent felonies already have serious consequences regardless of the offender’s motivation. A murder based on the victim’s race, for example, while certainly a hate crime, would likely not be charged as a hate crime under a penalty-enhancement statute. The criminal penalties for murder are already the most severe, so it would not make sense from a prosecutor’s perspective to also charge the perpetrator with lesser included penalties. This is primarily a charge tacked on to assault and batteries. In my city, in the last three years that I've lived here, the only time a hate crime has made the news is when thugs, who did not even know their victims, attacked their victims based on race or sexual orientation according to all evidence gathered. From every case I've witnessed, all of the thugs can get fucked as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to see them locked up for as long as conceivably possible.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19263228 - 12/11/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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How is some one who is picking people out because of their race any more dangerous than some one who commits the same crimes completely at random? It's an arbitrary charge used for headlines. And I'm no lawyer but I don't want a prosecutor trying to charge me with a thought crime.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: Juicin]
#19263357 - 12/11/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Juicin said: How is some one who is picking people out because of their race any more dangerous than some one who commits the same crimes completely at random? It's an arbitrary charge used for headlines. And I'm no lawyer but I don't want a prosecutor trying to charge me with a thought crime.
What? The person who commits a crime arbitrarily is equally dangerous to everyone. The person who commits a hate crime against a specific minority is more dangerous to that minority group, and may not be dangerous to everyone else. You can be damned certain that any minority group will pay attention to the headlines for that reason alone. If it was mere thought alone, I might concur with you about prosecution, but alas, it's a violent crime with specific features of thought that add up to a hate crime. I don't see this as a stepping stone.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (12/12/13 03:24 AM)
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usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand.
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: SneezingPenis]
#19264381 - 12/12/13 05:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The south could never be any more racist than is perfectly natural. All stories are utter bullshit. The institutions perpetuate mountains of utter bullshit. Avalanches of bullshit buried all real perspective at the dawn printed words. Reality could only be something completely different. Don't waste any time looking at sensationalist shit, better to find culture that touches the soul and enjoy. Anything could happen tommorrow, what goes around comes around. If history repeats itself then there will be ethnic cleansing, pray for that singularity. Meanwhile get high or whatever. But might still be an activist. Who knows?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#19264439 - 12/12/13 06:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: The purpose of the sentence-enhancing feature is to attach more serious penalties to violent bias-motivated crimes in an effort to demonstrate the seriousness with which we, as a society, address hate violence.
Hate crimes laws punish violent acts, not beliefs or thoughts, even violent thoughts. Hate crime statutes do not punish, nor prohibit in any way, name-calling, verbal abuse or expressions of hatred toward any group even if such statements amount to hate speech. It is only when the perpetrator crosses the line from speech to violent criminal action that hate crime laws might come into effect.
Personally, I'd be quite happy to see reform on 'draconian' laws that imprison victimless drug offenders. However, I'm quite happy to keep violent thugs away far away from me, by any means possible .
It's like 3 strikes and you're out, it only serves to add arbitrary time to crime. There are people looking at 25 years for stealing a bicycle because it would be their third strike.
As for victimless drug offenders, some at least steal continuously to support their habits. This is an ongoing problem in my area with meth in particular. Personally I hate tweekers, does that make me a tweeker "racist"?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: have you ever wondered why the south is racist? [Re: usulpsychonaut]
#19264595 - 12/12/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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usulpsychonaut said: If history repeats itself then there will be ethnic cleansing, pray for that singularity.
Yeah, let's hope it's us white people getting washed away this time, eh? That would be fun.
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