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OfflineGreySatyr
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Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments
    #19250450 - 12/09/13 02:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Im trying to learn about music theory and a variety of musical instruments. So this is probably are really stupid beginner question but I feel as if its an important question to ask and understand. So what is the difference of a fully chromatic instrument an a diatonic one? What are the pros and cons of each? I have a simple underatanding of chromatic and diatonic but I want a more acquired intelligence on the subject.

Also...

I want to as many examples of chromatic instruments and as many examples of diatonic instruments as possible, please? I believe I know of the obvious ones but I'm unsure of others...

From my limited understanding I am assuming a diatonic is simply an instrument that doesn't play flats or sharps but someone's told me that explanation doesn't encompass the whole gist of it.

Obviously I know that a piano, guitar and a pedal harp are fully chromatic but what are some other examples and examples of diatonic instruments, please?

I also have one other not as important question, as a single instrument not in an ensemble, what instruments play normally chords besides guitar, piano and harp? Is it only string that's typically play chords or are there any other instruments that play them?

I realize that on a lot of string instruments that it is possible to play chords but that it's never really done except with the obvious stated above...

Sorry for being ignorant on the topic of music and instruments, guys. Haha.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250519 - 12/09/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Harmonica and diatonic button accordion (e.g. cajun style one row accordion) are both based around the diatonic scale. One air direction gives the notes of the tonic triad repeating every 3 positions, and the other air direction gives the other 4 notes of the scale repeating every 4 positions. If you add another diatonic scale separated by a semitone though, you get a full chromatic scale. The B/C diatonic accordion used commonly in Irish music is fully chromatic. Chromatic harmonicas use a similar system where a lever is used to select between the two scales.

With piano the diatonic scale is also "built in" (the white keys are a C major scale) but I don't know if anyone describes it as a diatonic instrument.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250520 - 12/09/13 02:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that harmonicas are diatonic. That's why the big feller from Blues Traveler needs so many pockets.


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InvisibleJohnnieYen
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Me_Roy]
    #19250548 - 12/09/13 03:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

they make both chromatic and diatonic harmonicas


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: JohnnieYen]
    #19250567 - 12/09/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnieYen said:
they make both chromatic and diatonic harmonicas




Now if we could only figure out what makes an instrument diatonic.


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InvisibleKhii Khwaay
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250587 - 12/09/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Notes are a full tone apart on a normal harp (harmonica), and a semitone apart on a chromatic harp.

You've got to bend notes to get the full chromatic scale on a regular harp.


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InvisibleJohnnieYen
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250590 - 12/09/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Quote:

JohnnieYen said:
they make both chromatic and diatonic harmonicas




Now if we could only figure out what makes an instrument diatonic.






without the slide it would be diatonic


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: JohnnieYen]
    #19250679 - 12/09/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How does that translate to something like an penny whistle?


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19250708 - 12/09/13 03:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Harmonica and diatonic button accordion (e.g. cajun style one row accordion) are both based around the diatonic scale. One air direction gives the notes of the tonic triad repeating every 3 positions, and the other air direction gives the other 4 notes of the scale repeating every 4 positions. If you add another diatonic scale separated by a semitone though, you get a full chromatic scale. The B/C diatonic accordion used commonly in Irish music is fully chromatic. Chromatic harmonicas use a similar system where a lever is used to select between the two scales.

With piano the diatonic scale is also "built in" (the white keys are a C major scale) but I don't know if anyone describes it as a diatonic instrument.




I think pianos are both, as both sets of keys (black and white) make it chromatic, whereas using just the white keys makes it diatonic. I'm not sure if you can break it up like that, but oh well lol.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250747 - 12/09/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Quote:

JohnnieYen said:
they make both chromatic and diatonic harmonicas




Now if we could only figure out what makes an instrument diatonic.




The diatonic scale is the one commonly used in Western music. Diatonic harmonicas and accordions are named in that way because they are based around that scale. I'm not sure whether any unrelated instruments are referred to as diatonic instruments though, even if they are based on a diatonic scale and can only play the notes of a single key.


Quote:

The Vapor said:
I think pianos are both, as both sets of keys (black and white) make it chromatic, whereas using just the white keys makes it diatonic. I'm not sure if you can break it up like that, but oh well lol.




Yeah I think an instrument can be both but I'm not sure whether pianos are referred to as "diatonic instruments" by anyone. Diatonic is an organizational scheme, and chromatic describes whether or not all notes from the chromatic scale are playable.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19250768 - 12/09/13 03:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not grasping any of it. Fuck it.


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InvisibleJohnnieYen
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250789 - 12/09/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19250848 - 12/09/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Not grasping any of it. Fuck it.




A chromatic instrument can play all notes including sharps and flats. A diatonic instrument is organized based on the Western diatonic scale (e.g. C major,) and may or not be chromatic. If you combine e.g. the scales of B and C, all the gaps are filled and you get a full chromatic range. An instrument with diatonic organization (like a harmonica or accordion) may or may not be fully chromatic. A C button accordion is not, but a B/C accordion is.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19250856 - 12/09/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Quote:

JohnnieYen said:
they make both chromatic and diatonic harmonicas




Now if we could only figure out what makes an instrument diatonic.




The diatonic scale is the one commonly used in Western music. Diatonic harmonicas and accordions are named in that way because they are based around that scale. I'm not sure whether any unrelated instruments are referred to as diatonic instruments though, even if they are based on a diatonic scale and can only play the notes of a single key.


Quote:

The Vapor said:
I think pianos are both, as both sets of keys (black and white) make it chromatic, whereas using just the white keys makes it diatonic. I'm not sure if you can break it up like that, but oh well lol.




Yeah I think an instrument can be both but I'm not sure whether pianos are referred to as "diatonic instruments" by anyone. Diatonic is an organizational scheme, and chromatic describes whether or not all notes from the chromatic scale are playable.




Yeah pianos are for sure chromatic. I think some of the difference also comes in with the tuning of the instruments.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: The Vapor]
    #19250910 - 12/09/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah I think a chromatic instrument typically is tuned in equal temperament, where a semitone is always a ratio of 1:(2^(1/12)). With an instrument that can only play in one key you can use just intonation, where the ratios work out to exact whole number ratios instead of irrational approximations. Just intonation sounds better, but equal temperament sacrifices that for versatility.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19250937 - 12/09/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You sure know a lot about music kenny rogers. Far more than I would have assumed.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: The Vapor]
    #19250966 - 12/09/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

I'll let you in on a secret, I'm not really Kenny Rogers.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19250995 - 12/09/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Damn, thought I was talking to the real thing for a second there.

:ilold:


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InvisibleJohnnieYen
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19251008 - 12/09/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
:lol:

I'll let you in on a secret, I'm not really Kenny Rogers.






fuck, even Kenny Rogers isn't Kenny Rogers anymore...


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: JohnnieYen]
    #19251031 - 12/09/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah he looks pretty weird after that eye lift or botox or whatever the fuck he did. Kinda wrecks the whole rugged look.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19251099 - 12/09/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Yeah I think a chromatic instrument typically is tuned in equal temperament, where a semitone is always a ratio of 1:(2^(1/12)). With an instrument that can only play in one key you can use just intonation, where the ratios work out to exact whole number ratios instead of irrational approximations. Just intonation sounds better, but equal temperament sacrifices that for versatility.




Pretty much :shrug:


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19251412 - 12/09/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay so let me see if I'm getting this right...

An instrument could be considered diatonic if was designed to be played in whole steps instead of half steps...? I don't know why I can't understand this.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251546 - 12/09/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

And on a diatonic instrument you can only play in three or four keys?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251564 - 12/09/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How about the Chromatic Button Accordion?



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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19251616 - 12/09/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why does everyone keep mentioning accordions and harmonicas?

I'm thinking harps, flutes, hammered dulcimers, bagpipes, didgeridoo, fiddle, stand up bass, bouzouki, mandolin, and other shit like this.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251642 - 12/09/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Because you can have diatonic and chromatic versions of accordions and harmonicas.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251678 - 12/09/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The western diatonic scale goes like this:

whole step
whole step
whole step
half step
whole step
whole step
half step

(Incidentally you can generate six other scales from this by selecting different starting points in the sequence of intervals. Those are called modes.)

Diatonic harmonicas and accordions are based around this scale and that's why they are called "diatonic" instruments. It may be that those instruments are the only ones that get referred to as "diatonic" instruments, but there definitely are other instruments that are organized around the diatonic scale in some way (like the piano) that don't seem to get referred to as diatonic instruments.

"Chromatic" instruments are ones that can play all the letter notes and all their sharps and flats.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr] * 1
    #19251740 - 12/09/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Why does everyone keep mentioning accordions and harmonicas?

I'm thinking harps, flutes, hammered dulcimers, bagpipes, didgeridoo, fiddle, stand up bass, bouzouki, mandolin, and other shit like this.




I keep mentioning them because I can't think of anything else that I've heard referred to as a "diatonic instrument." Fretted and violin-family stringed instruments are all chromatic (although some fretted folk instruments don't have frets at every half step.) Things like flutes and bagpipes may or not be chromatic depending on how they're built (with keys or without.)


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19251871 - 12/09/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I have a basic or limited understanding now. Thanks guys. And I wasn't trying to be an ass hole about it but accordions and harmonicas aren't the only diatonic instruments, lol.

ANOTHER question, when were chromatic instruments made popular and is the keyless flute a diatonic instrument and would adding keys make it chromatic or some kinda hybrid?

Another one, wouldn't most modern instruments be chromatic while the older variations would be diatonic?

And finally, before chromatic instruments became available would three flutists be able to play a minor chord by one using a cross fingering technique or a half holing technique and how effective would it be? Did this happen often or did they just grab a flute in different key?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251875 - 12/09/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

lol are we doing your homework?


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19251912 - 12/09/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol. No, man. I just like to learn, I'm not in school. I'm interested in learning music theory. Some things I just don't get but in two weeks I won't even be thinking about it and it'll just come to me.

I've googled most of this shit that I'm asking an I can't get any information that I can understand although I'm starting to understand slowly but sure thanks to y'all.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251972 - 12/09/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
I guess I have a basic or limited understanding now. Thanks guys. And I wasn't trying to be an ass hole about it but accordions and harmonicas aren't the only diatonic instruments, lol.




So what other instruments are commonly described as "diatonic instruments?" I'm thinking that "non-chromatic" may be a better descriptor of what you're getting at.

Quote:

ANOTHER question, when were chromatic instruments made popular and is the keyless flute a diatonic instrument and would adding keys make it chromatic or some kinda hybrid?




I have an uncle who makes flutes and my impression is that adding more holes to an existing design throws the whole thing off tuning wise. The whole business of ensuring that the instrument is in tune (even in higher registers) seems very finicky. Chromatic wind instruments like concert flutes and clarinets tend to have a fuck of a lot of different holes and keys and levers. Look into the Boehm system of keying for woodwinds.

Quote:

Another one, wouldn't most modern instruments be chromatic while the older variations would be diatonic?




My impression is that more exist now than before. It's pretty straightforward to make a fretless stringed instrument that will play any note, but with other instrument types it's a lot more of an engineering challenge. Steel drums are a pretty "modern" instrument but I don't think they're chromatic.

Quote:

And finally, before chromatic instruments became available would three flutists be able to play a minor chord by one using a cross fingering technique or a half holing technique and how effective would it be? Did this happen often or did they just grab a flute in different key?



As far as I knew it is not possible to play chords as anything other than single notes on a flute. Some types of bagpipes can play chords though.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251989 - 12/09/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Lol. No, man. I just like to learn, I'm not in school. I'm interested in learning music theory. Some things I just don't get but in two weeks I won't even be thinking about it and it'll just come to me.

I've googled most of this shit that I'm asking an I can't get any information that I can understand although I'm starting to understand slowly but sure thanks to y'all.



2000th


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: NWlight]
    #19252023 - 12/09/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Psi, aka Kenny Rogers, I think you misunderstood that last question. In a harmony to create a chord, three flutists would play separate notes, for instance for a C chord one would play a C, the other a E AND the last a G note to create a C chord harmony, correct?

Well if each had a traditional keyless Irish flute then how would they play a minor chord? They would have to flatten the E note by cross fingering or half holing, correct?

Sorry I'm bein a pain in the ass, haha.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: NWlight]
    #19252025 - 12/09/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not anymore bro ham.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252253 - 12/09/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Psi, aka Kenny Rogers, I think you misunderstood that last question. In a harmony to create a chord, three flutists would play separate notes, for instance for a C chord one would play a C, the other a E AND the last a G note to create a C chord harmony, correct?

Well if each had a traditional keyless Irish flute then how would they play a minor chord? They would have to flatten the E note by cross fingering or half holing, correct?

Sorry I'm bein a pain in the ass, haha.




OK yeah I did misunderstand. Yeah I believe you are correct in principle. I'm not sure about the Eb note specifically but I've heard that an F can be produced on a D keyless Irish flute by some kind of fuckery like half holing. Simply playing the C and G notes together gives sort of a minor sound though that would be close enough. In guitar I think they call that a power chord but it's also known as a perfect fifth interval.

You may already know this but to derive chords from a scale you can take every other note. For triads from C major it goes like this:

C (CEG)
Dm(DFA)
Em(EGB)
F (FAC)
G (GBD)
Am(ACE)
Bdim(BDF)

On a C diatonic accordion most of those are not doable on the keyboard side, only C and Dm I believe. For the other ones you can play 2 of the 3 notes with your right hand, or the left hand side may have a button that plays the chord (adjacent to another one that plays a bass root note for it.)

You can extend the same principle by another note and generate various seventh chords. There are also scales that you can do the same thing with, for example the Klezmer or Flamenco scale.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252352 - 12/09/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You can play an F note on a keyless Irish flute easily, you just remove the two fingers. That's what I've read, maybe I'm wrong but only flats and sharps need be half holed cross fingered.

Sounds dirty, man.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252470 - 12/09/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it's not an instrument I know too much about directly but I have a few family members who are players so I've heard bits and pieces, a lot of which I'm fuzzy on. One interesting thing though is how the scale limitations of certain instruments encourage the use of different modes of the same key signature. Mixolydian is one of the odder ones used in Irish music.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252579 - 12/09/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

See I've been wantin to play guitar for several years and I finally got the opportunity to get one and learn and so I am but I'm enjoying it so much that I want to learn multiple instruments and the flute is one that I'm considering. I learn pretty fast and I have a fair bit of time to practice especially during the winter so I figured I'd go for. Of course, I'm on the crash course search for knowledge in music theory. It's really such an in depth topic and music is such a multilayered facet of creativity that I never even dreamed of, it's captivating as hell how intricate it is especially as my ear becomes trained to listen and focus more clearly. It's the ultimate experience right up there with psychedelics in my opinion. There is just so much to learn...

Like I said though, I was baby to music three months ago.

I play with folks who have been playing for years and I already know more than a few of them. Don't ask me how that works. Simple minds, I suppose, good folks though.

A few of them are good enough to be professionals though at least in their respective genre of bluegrass. Particularly one who is head and shoulders above the rest and plays every typical bluegrass instrument except the fiddle and sings amazing...

But yeah, so much to learn...


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252668 - 12/09/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah IMO messing around with different instruments is a good way to force your brain to conceptualize it in varying ways. My main instrument is tenor banjo which has the same fingerings as mandolin and fiddle. Everything is very logical and geometric because the intervals between strings are all the same (unlike say guitar where the G-B interval is different.) Working out the same tune in different keys is another good brain exercise. With enough practice you can do it on the fly.

Button accordion is something I started messing around with later. It's very counterintuitive in a lot of ways (largely because the pattern repeats every 3 spaces in one air direction and every 4 for the other so adjacent notes in the scale are all over the place as you get away from the center of the row) but there is potential for great economy of movement because each button produces two different notes depending on air direction.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252725 - 12/09/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I feel the same way. Some folks were encouraging me to play multiple instruments then I had a bunch of elitist a saying that its counterproductive to focus. I don't believe that though and it's not in my nature to try one thing. I want to play a diverse range of music and instruments. In a year or so I think I'll take up didgeridoo and some ethnic percussion. They're very different so I don't know how much I'll be able to relate all those instruments but to hell with it. Ill have fun with it. Guitar and Trad Irish flute will be my main instruments. Didgeridoo and ethnic drums will just be for fun and relaxation. Something I won't have to take too serious and can have fun with. Ill probably add keys to my flute after I become fairly experienced. I was also thinking of trying an open tuning on my guitar but I don't want to overwhelm myself especially at this stage, haha.

What do you think?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252850 - 12/09/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Never stifle yourself musically. Music is emotion and the second you stifle that you lose connection to your inspired mind. Do whatever comes to mind. That includes notes and lyrics. At the start of every jam I always dedicate 5 minutes to useless random noise of all kinds, to give the proceedings perspective. If you want to start off with a triangle, start off with a fucking triangle. I guarantee anyone who's ever really enjoyed the discipline to be musical, has found the time to create music. You can either be a musician, or just 'the guitarist.'

That being said a chromatic instrument will put your mind in tune, as well as memorize scales and notes. A diatonic instrument gives more options, like a guitar, where octave notes are in abundance and less than distant. Chromatic is like a sober mind, very straight forward. Reliable but not entirely creative. Diatonic is more challenging but rewarding and mind opening for the theoretical end, so thus on my spectrum it's the trip instrument. As we all know, sobriety and tripping should be used in conjuntion, not one or the other. Elsewise perspective is muddied, boredom ensues.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252863 - 12/09/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah I've encountered some players who are really against people playing multiple instruments, seemingly because they are insecure about the fact that they play one instrument themselves (even if they're quite good at it.) I guess a big part of it is that there is a lot of competition for music work. For me it was a good thing to focus on one instrument first (mandolin initially) but starting multiple instruments at the same time can probably work if you've got the drive.

I've never got too far with regular guitar myself although I have a couple around the house. One open tuning that a lot of people like for Irish music is DADGAD. I have a tenor guitar that plays the same as a tenor banjo so I use that for accompaniment sometimes. I have it tuned super low with bass guitar strings (2 octaves under mandolin tuning, where normal Irish tenor guitar/banjo tuning is one octave under mandolin tuning.)


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252930 - 12/09/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I was actually speaking about DADGAD which IMO lends itself beautifully to finger style. I'd love to learn but I may hold back on it for just a little while until I'm more experienced.

Oh, I'm giving you both five shrooms for the great information and encouragement.
I really appreciate y'all's posts.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252958 - 12/09/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There's no reason to not play multiple instruments. Unless you just choose to only play one.

Musical knowledge transitions from instrument to instrument regardless of what your actually playing. I can play guitar. I've held a flute once, but If I had one in front of me and enough time, I guarantee  I could make it sing after a couple of hours. I'd have to learn how to make it produce noise first, obviously, but then I'd be able to play around with the finger coverings and recognize what notes are being played.

That's the way I learn every instrument.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
    #19253105 - 12/09/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think it'd take more than a couple hours to make it "sing" but I get what you're saying. I think it'd take a couple hours (at least) to really get down a good embouchure for a transverse flute but that's my opinion and I've never tried but I'm hoping to soon.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19253210 - 12/09/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I suppose.

I know flute is hard to master, and hard to even produce a sound out of it for a beginner. But i'm just saying that if you can play one instrument well, you'll be able to pick up on notes and such when playing another.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
    #19253763 - 12/10/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience, professional performing musicians are able to play many instruments. They will still all give you the same advice, focus on one instrument. That doesn't mean that you can't fuck around on a guitar or whatever, but if you want to be a musician you should make a concerted effort to play one instrument as best as you possibly can.

I know some people who play in internationally recognized orchestras. They are brilliant musicians when it comes to their orchestral instruments, and that brilliance also shines through when they play the guitar or drums or what have you. Those are the people who are pushing the envelope, however. They can and do play multiple instruments very well, but they all started the same way: they focused on one instrument.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
    #19253896 - 12/10/13 04:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I agree. Sticking to one instrument can make you a master at said instrument.

I guess the reason I say learn many is because I love producing music, so I've learned through the years to play various types so I can record them myself. This also gives me a chance to learn the mixing and producing side of music as well. I just love all aspects of it. haha.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
    #19253934 - 12/10/13 04:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would agree with the previous posters encouraging picking up multiple instruments.

I think it's best to focus on one instrument for several years to become very comfortable with it.
Then after you've reached a level where you are happy with your abilities on that instrument, pick up another.

It will be frustrating to start over again, so when you're getting too irritated with no progressing at your desired rate just pick up your first instrument and have some fun on it.
I find myself doing this all the time.

I played drums for 5 years before I picked up piano. And then I picked up the bass a few years after that.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Acaterpillar]
    #19254169 - 12/10/13 07:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm thinking that a lot probably depends on the individual learner, but for me personally it was good to focus on one thing initially. An advantage to trying several instruments as a novice though is that you may hit on one instrument that comes much easier for you.

I had tried fiddle (at ~12) before I tried mandolin (18,) and the learning curve for making the fiddle sound even remotely decent was so steep that I gave up. They both have identical fingerings and even the scale lengths are pretty close, but the fact that the mandolin has frets and is picked eliminates a couple factors that make many new fiddle/violin players sound like crap for years. Once I got the basics on mandolin it wasn't too big of a jump to go to tenor banjo. Same fingerings again, but the scale length is longer and the strings are not doubled. Eventually I started to find the banjo's reach a lot more comfortable and didn't really go back to mandolin.

Clarinet and piano I had tried a bit as a kid, but I got a lot more out of them coming back later in life after learning a lot of music on mandolin/banjo.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19254341 - 12/10/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I'm going to focus on guitar and take up flute as an alternative for when I'm frustrated with one or the other. I don't think I'll ever "master" guitar, I started too late but hell if I can jam on multiple instruments and just have fun with other folks then ill be happy.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19254442 - 12/10/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah completely mastering an instrument is a tall order since even great players can always advance further. Getting fairly proficient/competent in a couple years is totally doable though. IMO starting early in life is not necessarily as essential as some people make it sound. Sure it's great if you started early but you can learn at any age if you put in the work (and can at least hear the differences between tones and control your hands.)


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19254840 - 12/10/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That I can do but ultimately starting earlier means you have had more time to dedicate yourself to music and by your twenties or early twenties you could have achieved a proficient level with an instrument or even multiple because younger generations typically have more time on their hands. BUT I think bring a young adult and learning music also has its advantages, more discipline and more aware of what you like and what's worth putting in time and effort, more time conscious about what we practice. There are pros to both and cons to both.

This is the best and most rewarding hobby ever though. I wish I was more experienced so that I could go jam with some guys my age in my preferred genre of music. I feel like my learning experience is narrow when I play with the guys I play with because they use a capo so much, I learn more by myself most of the time. Mostly they just play a D,C,G rhythm with a capo and although I enjoy myself I think they should branch out a little but they're old timers and only a few come out of the box on rare occasions and play up and down the neck openly.

The best guitar player doesn't even play guitar in our sessions, lol.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19255119 - 12/10/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah there is probably also some element of your mind having greater plasticity during childhood and making learning easier, but you can't go back in time anyway. The kind of discipline required is probably less common as a kid though as you say, and if someone's really pushing you into it then you may grow to hate it.

The Irish music scene is similar to what you describe in a lot of ways. There tend to be different tiers of sessions, so you can go to beginner ones where they play very slowly slowly so you can learn easier, intermediate ones where there's a wide range of experience levels, and high level ones where they play fast and more obscure and difficult material. Those ones often are somewhat elitist and usually it's better to come just to listen if you're more of a beginner because people can get pissed off with you if your playing is distracting. If you can go to all different ones it's good because you're exposed to the full range.

To branch out beyond simple accompaniment styles it's good to know chord scales as well as different voicings/inversions of each chord. Each triad in the scale has two others similar to it, and you can get them by changing one note out of the triad. You can substitute one for the other and sometimes it works with the tune and other times it doesn't.

e.g.

G (GBD)-----> Bm(BDF) or Em(EGB)
Am(ACE)-----> C (CEG) or F#dim(FAC)
Bm(BDF)-----> D (DFA) or G (GBD)
C (CEG)-----> Em(EGB) or Am(ACE)
D (DFA)-----> F#dim(FAC) or Bm(BDF)
Em(EGB)-----> G (GBD) or C (CEG)
F#dim(FAC)--> Am(ACE) or D (DFA)

The diminished chord is kind of weird sounding so in Irish accompaniment you would typically use a D chord with an F bass note instead.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19255487 - 12/10/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's really what I want to get into is Irish folk sessions. That's one reason for my deciding to play flute. What you said about triads is a little over my head right now, just barely, I can almost grasp what you're saying but I'm a little short. Give me a few weeks more experience, haha.

I know of triad shapes and scales but I don't understand scale relation to chords, at least I don't think I do but maybe I do, if that makes any sense. I have an idea of it but not the whole picture is what I'm trying to say.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19256385 - 12/10/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Cool man. Yeah check out thesession.org, they have a listing of Irish sessions in different parts of the world. Many North American cities have numerous different ones. Thecipher.com is a good site for understanding chord scales and that kind of thing. Modes are a good thing to understand for Irish music too. Ionian is the normal major scale, Dorian and Aeolian are common minor scales, and Mixolydian is kind of a weird one that sounds a bit major and a bit minor.

This track is a tune in D Dorian (same key signature as C major) followed by one in D Mixolydian (same key signature as G major.) The first one I think is an original composition and the second one is a common traditional tune.



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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19257621 - 12/10/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've lurked around the session a bit, I've been on several music forums in pursuit of knowledge but I find them all limited to one form of music or one form of instrument. I wish I could find a forum for everything music.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19257763 - 12/10/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah the forums there are so-so (lots of bickering about which instruments are annoying) but the list of sessions is very handy. The database of tunes is cool in theory but a lot of people transcribe them weirdly. For me the simplest way to learn tunes is to get recordings and try to play along with them. You can use software to slow them down or transpose to different keys. Soulseek is a file sharing program I've found to be good for traditional music. Youtube is also good to see fingerings.

Wikipedia is pretty good for learning theory I find. When I was spending a lot of time learning theory I made a lot of charts on graph paper. I can fumble through sheet music (which typically is what is shown in the illustrations) but I found things easier to understand when I drew out the intervals on a grid. The circle of fifths is also a good thing to familiarize yourself with.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19259006 - 12/11/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, thats why i didn't sign up for the session and another classical music forum. I'm fairly familiar with the circle of fifths. I've also been using wiki and YouTube. Something I don't understand is this...

http://eriktheflutemaker.com/

The first video he plays several flutes, one he says is major and one is minor in scale. I don't understand that, how is one major and the other minor? I also don't understand what he means by major or copy, minor for creating and oriental for relaxing. I think that's just a relative statement but I don't know. Do you understand it?

Also, what would an Irish flute be? Major or minor?
Does it have to do with the holes being different sizes?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259018 - 12/11/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Also...

I want to as many examples of chromatic instruments and as many examples of diatonic instruments as possible, please? I believe I know of the obvious ones but I'm unsure of others...

From my limited understanding I am assuming a diatonic is simply an instrument that doesn't play flats or sharps but someone's told me that explanation doesn't encompass the whole gist of it.

Obviously I know that a piano, guitar and a pedal harp are fully chromatic but what are some other examples and examples of diatonic instruments, please?

I also have one other not as important question, as a single instrument not in an ensemble, what instruments play normally chords besides guitar, piano and harp? Is it only string that's typically play chords or are there any other instruments that play them?

I realize that on a lot of string instruments that it is possible to play chords but that it's never really done except with the obvious stated above...

Sorry for being ignorant on the topic of music and instruments, guys. Haha.




All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259110 - 12/11/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Haha that guy in the video is pretty over the top.

I think the scale on the "minor" flute is something like this:

D
E
F
G
A
Bb
(C? don't think he played it, there may even just be a gap here)
D

The key of F major (aka Ionian) has one flat (Bb:)

F (I)
G (II)
A (III)
Bb(IV)
C (V)
D (VI)
E (VII)
F (I)

so basically you could play things in F Major (or its other modes) on the "minor" flute if you wanted (with a possible gap at the C.) The main thing that makes it "minor" is the fact that the lowest note is a D.

The Roman numerals are scale degrees. D is the 6th note in the F Major scale, so a scale that starts on D and uses the notes of F major is D Aeolian.

Here's a listing of the Western modes based on their scale degree relative to a major scale (i.e. which note you pick as a starting point:)
I - Ionian
II- Dorian
III-Phrygian
IV -Lydian
V  -Mixolydian
VI -Aeolian
VII-Locrian

There are also other scales that are not modes of the western scale. Some have wider intervals between notes, less notes in total and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_constellation

With the thing of mixed size or uniform sized holes on flutes I have no clue really how it relates to what scales might be possible. As far as I know there are a number of complicated interrelated compromises that are made in flute design. Conical bore vs straight bore is another design consideration. I think modern flute types have a conical bore and different sized holes.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19259144 - 12/11/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?




Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19259214 - 12/11/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:

All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?




That's not true. Check out the dulcimer psi provided as an example.
Beautiful instrument!

Psi, the Irish flute had a conical bore but I'm not so sure about its hole diameters. Ill read up on what you posted, I'm just confused on the limitations of the flute if its designed as a major or minor or diatonic without keys or whatever have you. It's also good to just know this stuff so I can take up other instruments later on in my journey of everything music, haha.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259294 - 12/11/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess what I'm trying to say is to look at the list of playable notes and the range rather than descriptions like "major" or "minor" (unless maybe it's based on a scale that's not a mode of the Western diatonic scale like the "Arabian" scale or something.) Any instrument that can play a full diatonic scale in a certain key signature can play any of the seven modes with that key signature. It's just a matter of considerations like whether whatever you want to play goes below the bottom note of the instrument. The lowest note in a tune is not necessarily the tonic note of the key it's in, but often it can be.

With Irish music, a lot doesn't go below the bottom D of the (unkeyed) flute. The range of the fiddle goes down to the G a fifth below that though, so when a tune would have gone below that a flute player might play something similar an octave up from what the fiddle plays. Most Irish unkeyed flutes still have two holes near the end that would only be possible to cover if there were keys, but they are still present because removing them from the design would throw everything off. I'm not sure what the bottom note is when there are keys.


Edited by psi (12/11/13 09:41 AM)


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19259920 - 12/11/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm slowly, very slowly beginning to understand...

It's confusing as hell for a guy whose never played a flute, I think I may just get an Irish unkeyed and learn in it before I decide to buy a more expensive handmade simple system or add keys to the Irish flute. Somethin you said just clicked. See what I mean...lol, it's just a matter of time and thought on the subject.

Oh, crystal, to elaborate as to why I want to know...

I am interested in the medieval folk band movement in Europe.
Go on YouTube and run a search on the band "Omnia" and let me know what you think about it. Other bands are Faun, Wardruna, ect, I have a thread in the music section designated to reviews, unfortunately I've been neglecting it the past few days which I tend to do when I'm learning new music or music theory. I take breaks between listening and learning.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260032 - 12/11/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I just checked a bit of it out, the presentation is a little over the top for my taste but a lot of the music is cool. Hurdy-gurdy is a killer instrument. I have an aunt who plays one. I think the music she's into is similar to that, like medieval English music.

Here's a thread where I posted a bunch of Irish music that I'm into:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18530390


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19260075 - 12/11/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I was trying to get people pumped up about it, haha. I wanted it to be O-fficial.

See I love Irish folk music as well. I'm not very educated on it thought and I've rarely listened to it to be honest but it's still beautiful. I can play "Black Is the Colour" and "Wild Rover" on guitar. I'm trying to learn the finger style for black is the colour. I have a few more I'm in the middle of learning, ha. I get sucked into learning half a song then learning the other half two weeks later, haha.

Okay so a simple system flute is made according to a scale and it can be player easiest in that scale BUT can play most related scales? Am I understanding that correct?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260077 - 12/11/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My friend mentioned information about instruments before taking a plane to Vermont. I planned to move their to enroll in a musical academy.  A school where you study music until you reach the heights of one with a firm grasp on all the different forms of music. You will pick up an instrument and decide to tune it without asking any questions, you just say I'm going to arrange to the instrument to enhance its quality. Foe you might notice a blatant increase in musical appreciation. You begin to appear so entirely captivated by musical notes composition. You ask you friends to get together & study music dreaming of when they are the teacher introducing music as the main subject in class. Instruments exert a force which cannot be penetrated by anything else for the sheer fact of it being so far predominately based on a trip to the past. For some things seem to happen but happened before. As if it happened years ago but we just remembered it now.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: drkkenny]
    #19260134 - 12/11/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

drkkenny said:
My friend mentioned information about instruments before taking a plane to Vermont. I planned to move their to enroll in a musical academy.  A school where you study music until you reach the heights of one with a firm grasp on all the different forms of music. You will pick up an instrument and decide to tune it without asking any questions, you just say I'm going to arrange to the instrument to enhance its quality. Foe you might notice a blatant increase in musical appreciation. You begin to appear so entirely captivated by musical notes composition. You ask you friends to get together & study music dreaming of when they are the teacher introducing music as the main subject in class. Instruments exert a force which cannot be penetrated by anything else for the sheer fact of it being so far predominately based on a trip to the past. For some things seem to happen but happened before. As if it happened years ago but we just remembered it now.




I grow tired of your poetic psychobabble. It contributes nothing and derails the concern at hand. If you're going to drop acid then learn how to handle it, next time you have something pretty to say that serves no purpose but to serve as visualization aid of a perfect world then write it in your notebook, I can't use it here.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260440 - 12/11/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Okay so a simple system flute is made according to a scale and it can be player easiest in that scale BUT can play most related scales? Am I understanding that correct?




The different modes of one key signature would be equally easy to play because they are composed of the same notes. I guess if other key signatures involve notes that have more difficult fingerings, those ones would be more difficult. Like I say I don't know much about flute fingerings though.

A piano keyboard is a good way to visualize modes if you're having trouble with the idea. If you play every white key from one C to the next one, you have a C major (aka C Ionian) scale. If you go from D to D (again on only white keys) you have a D Dorian scale.

C Ionian -> standard major scale
D Dorian -> minor scale common in Irish music
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian ->somewhat odd sounding mode used in Irish music
A Aeolian -standard minor scale
B Locrian

Similarly a piano keyboard is a good way to visualize chord scales. If you put your thumb on the C, middle finger on E and little finger on G (the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale) you have a C major chord. Shifting the pattern to the right along the white keys you get:

C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B diminished

This relates to the modes derived from C, so for a D Dorian chord scale you would start on a D minor chord and go through the sequence from there.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19260808 - 12/11/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think I get it!

I've got to go, I'll be back in a few hours.

So what would be the key differences between an Irish flute and that Vivaldi that guy makes? Just the timbre and what it's made out of? That's what I don't get, there is no information out there to compare simple system flutes...


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261377 - 12/11/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





What I mean is, you can still play chromatics with any string instrument. Not sure about wind, I have no experience with those.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261430 - 12/11/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psi said:
Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





What I mean is, you can still play chromatics with any string instrument. Not sure about wind, I have no experience with those.




If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
    #19261447 - 12/11/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.


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Invisiblemr sniffles
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261499 - 12/11/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.



i think if it was fretless like a violin, this would be true. but guitars and similar instruments have frets so its easier to ring a chord or a note with resonance.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261556 - 12/11/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah you would have to bend the strings pretty hard to raise them by a full semitone. The frets set the effective length of the string so you can only hit intermediate notes by increasing tension. If you try to play in F# on a G instrument without just tuning down, it's going to be a tough go. It's just not designed with the chromatic scale in mind. Definitely the vast majority of string instruments are designed to be chromatic though.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261583 - 12/11/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.




True. One could utilize a slide, for example. Or if one was particularly good a playing harmonics with their fingers, they could probably play a chromatic scale. Either way, the instrument was not designed to be chromatic, I guess that's what I should have said.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
    #19261600 - 12/11/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

healing said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.




True. One could utilize a slide, for example. Or if one was particularly good a playing harmonics with their fingers, they could probably play a chromatic scale. Either way, the instrument was not designed to be chromatic, I guess that's what I should have said.





:mindblown:


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261620 - 12/11/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:

Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





coincidentally, i just picked one of these up :smile:


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19261656 - 12/11/13 05:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Shweet. Got any pics?


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261692 - 12/11/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, we'd like to see pics. Haha.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261702 - 12/11/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

just the quick one i snapped on my cell at the shop



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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19261781 - 12/11/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Cool man that looks awesome.

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
So what would be the key differences between an Irish flute and that Vivaldi that guy makes? Just the timbre and what it's made out of? That's what I don't get, there is no information out there to compare simple system flutes...




I was reading the description of that Vivaldi one and it says it's tuned in harmonic minor, which is not a mode of the western diatonic scale. It's the same as Aeolian (aka natural minor) except the seventh note of the scale is a semitone higher. Say it was A harmonic minor, instead of ABCDEFGA it would go ABCDEFG#A. The gap from the F to the G# is a tone and a half. I guess the question is what other notes are doable outside that scale. If G natural (in the example) is doable somehow then you could play Western modes.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261869 - 12/11/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the whole "7th, flat dimished 6th, key of G to the C power" shit makes me go crazy.  ive been playing music since 7th grade, am 27 now, and still havent taken the time to decipher all that shit.

i can make music.  i know what sounds good.  my ear is strong.  my brain must not be.


:feelsbadman:


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19262908 - 12/11/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Cool man that looks awesome.

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
So what would be the key differences between an Irish flute and that Vivaldi that guy makes? Just the timbre and what it's made out of? That's what I don't get, there is no information out there to compare simple system flutes...




I was reading the description of that Vivaldi one and it says it's tuned in harmonic minor, which is not a mode of the western diatonic scale. It's the same as Aeolian (aka natural minor) except the seventh note of the scale is a semitone higher. Say it was A harmonic minor, instead of ABCDEFGA it would go ABCDEFG#A. The gap from the F to the G# is a tone and a half. I guess the question is what other notes are doable outside that scale. If G natural (in the example) is doable somehow then you could play Western modes.




Thanks. I guess I'll just start out on a traditional Irish flute until I gain more experience and then maybe ill branch out to different varieties of flutes or maybe ill add keys, we will see in a few years, haha. I'm going to be starting a small instrument collection in the mean time. Of traditional instruments. Ill start with basic models then as my experience grows ill have to treat myself to handmade instruments like the Vivaldi and yes, that guy who makes them is looney but he's cool in my book, he makes a great flute from what I can tell.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19265127 - 12/12/13 10:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

memes said:
the whole "7th, flat dimished 6th, key of G to the C power" shit makes me go crazy.  ive been playing music since 7th grade, am 27 now, and still havent taken the time to decipher all that shit.

i can make music.  i know what sounds good.  my ear is strong.  my brain must not be.


:feelsbadman:




Yeah there's a fairly steep learning curve with a lot of the terminology, I found I had to convert the information to numbers and fretboard patterns to make sense of it when I was doing a lot of reading on theory. A lot I've forgotten since from lack of use. People who are really good with the theory can look at a complex chord name and know which obscure scale goes with it, but other people just have an intuitive sense of which notes go with which chords without knowing the terms.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19265427 - 12/12/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I wish I had that gift, haha.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #20246734 - 07/09/14 08:52 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Basically, a diatonic instrument only has the notes of the scale it is tuned to. So, for example, a diatonic C harmonica, only has the notes contained in the c major scale.
There are no "wrong" notes on a diatonic instrument, any note you play, will sound at least kinda right, because all the notes you CAN play are appropriate to the scale.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: DiezenPDX]
    #20246783 - 07/09/14 09:07 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DiezenPDX said:
Basically, a diatonic instrument only has the notes of the scale it is tuned to. So, for example, a diatonic C harmonica, only has the notes contained in the c major scale.
There are no "wrong" notes on a diatonic instrument, any note you play, will sound at least kinda right, because all the notes you CAN play are appropriate to the scale.




A diatonic C harmonica also contains a G scale. This is achieved by playing what is known as cross-harp.


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[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247002 - 07/09/14 10:07 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

All of the notes in G major are also in C except the F#.


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #20247032 - 07/09/14 10:17 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
All of the notes in G major are also in C except the F#.




Learn somethin' new everyday!


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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247081 - 07/09/14 10:37 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah the "circle of fifths" is handy for keeping track of those relationships, when two notes are right next to each other in the circle of fifths then their major scales will differ by only one note. The F scale is the other major scale that has all but one note in common with C, with a B flat instead of a B.

C
G
D
A
E
B
F#/Gb
C#/Db
G#/Ab
D#/Eb
A#/Bb
F
C


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