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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259018 - 12/11/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Also...

I want to as many examples of chromatic instruments and as many examples of diatonic instruments as possible, please? I believe I know of the obvious ones but I'm unsure of others...

From my limited understanding I am assuming a diatonic is simply an instrument that doesn't play flats or sharps but someone's told me that explanation doesn't encompass the whole gist of it.

Obviously I know that a piano, guitar and a pedal harp are fully chromatic but what are some other examples and examples of diatonic instruments, please?

I also have one other not as important question, as a single instrument not in an ensemble, what instruments play normally chords besides guitar, piano and harp? Is it only string that's typically play chords or are there any other instruments that play them?

I realize that on a lot of string instruments that it is possible to play chords but that it's never really done except with the obvious stated above...

Sorry for being ignorant on the topic of music and instruments, guys. Haha.




All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259110 - 12/11/13 08:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Haha that guy in the video is pretty over the top.

I think the scale on the "minor" flute is something like this:

D
E
F
G
A
Bb
(C? don't think he played it, there may even just be a gap here)
D

The key of F major (aka Ionian) has one flat (Bb:)

F (I)
G (II)
A (III)
Bb(IV)
C (V)
D (VI)
E (VII)
F (I)

so basically you could play things in F Major (or its other modes) on the "minor" flute if you wanted (with a possible gap at the C.) The main thing that makes it "minor" is the fact that the lowest note is a D.

The Roman numerals are scale degrees. D is the 6th note in the F Major scale, so a scale that starts on D and uses the notes of F major is D Aeolian.

Here's a listing of the Western modes based on their scale degree relative to a major scale (i.e. which note you pick as a starting point:)
I - Ionian
II- Dorian
III-Phrygian
IV -Lydian
V  -Mixolydian
VI -Aeolian
VII-Locrian

There are also other scales that are not modes of the western scale. Some have wider intervals between notes, less notes in total and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_constellation

With the thing of mixed size or uniform sized holes on flutes I have no clue really how it relates to what scales might be possible. As far as I know there are a number of complicated interrelated compromises that are made in flute design. Conical bore vs straight bore is another design consideration. I think modern flute types have a conical bore and different sized holes.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19259144 - 12/11/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?




Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19259214 - 12/11/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:

All instruments can be played in the chromatic or diatonic scale. This makes sense if you understand how a musical string works mathematically. (e.g. you halve a string and you get an octave higher of the same note) Why do you want to find instruments that do exclusively one?




That's not true. Check out the dulcimer psi provided as an example.
Beautiful instrument!

Psi, the Irish flute had a conical bore but I'm not so sure about its hole diameters. Ill read up on what you posted, I'm just confused on the limitations of the flute if its designed as a major or minor or diatonic without keys or whatever have you. It's also good to just know this stuff so I can take up other instruments later on in my journey of everything music, haha.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19259294 - 12/11/13 09:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess what I'm trying to say is to look at the list of playable notes and the range rather than descriptions like "major" or "minor" (unless maybe it's based on a scale that's not a mode of the Western diatonic scale like the "Arabian" scale or something.) Any instrument that can play a full diatonic scale in a certain key signature can play any of the seven modes with that key signature. It's just a matter of considerations like whether whatever you want to play goes below the bottom note of the instrument. The lowest note in a tune is not necessarily the tonic note of the key it's in, but often it can be.

With Irish music, a lot doesn't go below the bottom D of the (unkeyed) flute. The range of the fiddle goes down to the G a fifth below that though, so when a tune would have gone below that a flute player might play something similar an octave up from what the fiddle plays. Most Irish unkeyed flutes still have two holes near the end that would only be possible to cover if there were keys, but they are still present because removing them from the design would throw everything off. I'm not sure what the bottom note is when there are keys.


Edited by psi (12/11/13 09:41 AM)


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19259920 - 12/11/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm slowly, very slowly beginning to understand...

It's confusing as hell for a guy whose never played a flute, I think I may just get an Irish unkeyed and learn in it before I decide to buy a more expensive handmade simple system or add keys to the Irish flute. Somethin you said just clicked. See what I mean...lol, it's just a matter of time and thought on the subject.

Oh, crystal, to elaborate as to why I want to know...

I am interested in the medieval folk band movement in Europe.
Go on YouTube and run a search on the band "Omnia" and let me know what you think about it. Other bands are Faun, Wardruna, ect, I have a thread in the music section designated to reviews, unfortunately I've been neglecting it the past few days which I tend to do when I'm learning new music or music theory. I take breaks between listening and learning.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260032 - 12/11/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I just checked a bit of it out, the presentation is a little over the top for my taste but a lot of the music is cool. Hurdy-gurdy is a killer instrument. I have an aunt who plays one. I think the music she's into is similar to that, like medieval English music.

Here's a thread where I posted a bunch of Irish music that I'm into:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18530390


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19260075 - 12/11/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I was trying to get people pumped up about it, haha. I wanted it to be O-fficial.

See I love Irish folk music as well. I'm not very educated on it thought and I've rarely listened to it to be honest but it's still beautiful. I can play "Black Is the Colour" and "Wild Rover" on guitar. I'm trying to learn the finger style for black is the colour. I have a few more I'm in the middle of learning, ha. I get sucked into learning half a song then learning the other half two weeks later, haha.

Okay so a simple system flute is made according to a scale and it can be player easiest in that scale BUT can play most related scales? Am I understanding that correct?


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Offlinedrkkenny
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260077 - 12/11/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

My friend mentioned information about instruments before taking a plane to Vermont. I planned to move their to enroll in a musical academy.  A school where you study music until you reach the heights of one with a firm grasp on all the different forms of music. You will pick up an instrument and decide to tune it without asking any questions, you just say I'm going to arrange to the instrument to enhance its quality. Foe you might notice a blatant increase in musical appreciation. You begin to appear so entirely captivated by musical notes composition. You ask you friends to get together & study music dreaming of when they are the teacher introducing music as the main subject in class. Instruments exert a force which cannot be penetrated by anything else for the sheer fact of it being so far predominately based on a trip to the past. For some things seem to happen but happened before. As if it happened years ago but we just remembered it now.


--------------------

No More Stories Are Told Today, I'm Sorry They Washed Away // No More Stories, The World Is Grey, I'm Tired, Let's Wash Away.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: drkkenny]
    #19260134 - 12/11/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

drkkenny said:
My friend mentioned information about instruments before taking a plane to Vermont. I planned to move their to enroll in a musical academy.  A school where you study music until you reach the heights of one with a firm grasp on all the different forms of music. You will pick up an instrument and decide to tune it without asking any questions, you just say I'm going to arrange to the instrument to enhance its quality. Foe you might notice a blatant increase in musical appreciation. You begin to appear so entirely captivated by musical notes composition. You ask you friends to get together & study music dreaming of when they are the teacher introducing music as the main subject in class. Instruments exert a force which cannot be penetrated by anything else for the sheer fact of it being so far predominately based on a trip to the past. For some things seem to happen but happened before. As if it happened years ago but we just remembered it now.




I grow tired of your poetic psychobabble. It contributes nothing and derails the concern at hand. If you're going to drop acid then learn how to handle it, next time you have something pretty to say that serves no purpose but to serve as visualization aid of a perfect world then write it in your notebook, I can't use it here.


--------------------
...also, go to hell, huh?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19260440 - 12/11/13 02:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Okay so a simple system flute is made according to a scale and it can be player easiest in that scale BUT can play most related scales? Am I understanding that correct?




The different modes of one key signature would be equally easy to play because they are composed of the same notes. I guess if other key signatures involve notes that have more difficult fingerings, those ones would be more difficult. Like I say I don't know much about flute fingerings though.

A piano keyboard is a good way to visualize modes if you're having trouble with the idea. If you play every white key from one C to the next one, you have a C major (aka C Ionian) scale. If you go from D to D (again on only white keys) you have a D Dorian scale.

C Ionian -> standard major scale
D Dorian -> minor scale common in Irish music
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian ->somewhat odd sounding mode used in Irish music
A Aeolian -standard minor scale
B Locrian

Similarly a piano keyboard is a good way to visualize chord scales. If you put your thumb on the C, middle finger on E and little finger on G (the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the scale) you have a C major chord. Shifting the pattern to the right along the white keys you get:

C major
D minor
E minor
F major
G major
A minor
B diminished

This relates to the modes derived from C, so for a D Dorian chord scale you would start on a D minor chord and go through the sequence from there.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19260808 - 12/11/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think I get it!

I've got to go, I'll be back in a few hours.

So what would be the key differences between an Irish flute and that Vivaldi that guy makes? Just the timbre and what it's made out of? That's what I don't get, there is no information out there to compare simple system flutes...


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261377 - 12/11/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





What I mean is, you can still play chromatics with any string instrument. Not sure about wind, I have no experience with those.


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261430 - 12/11/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

psi said:
Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





What I mean is, you can still play chromatics with any string instrument. Not sure about wind, I have no experience with those.




If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.


--------------------
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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
    #19261447 - 12/11/13 05:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.


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Invisiblemr sniffles
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261499 - 12/11/13 05:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.



i think if it was fretless like a violin, this would be true. but guitars and similar instruments have frets so its easier to ring a chord or a note with resonance.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261556 - 12/11/13 05:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah you would have to bend the strings pretty hard to raise them by a full semitone. The frets set the effective length of the string so you can only hit intermediate notes by increasing tension. If you try to play in F# on a G instrument without just tuning down, it's going to be a tough go. It's just not designed with the chromatic scale in mind. Definitely the vast majority of string instruments are designed to be chromatic though.


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Offlinehealing
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Crystal G]
    #19261583 - 12/11/13 05:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.




True. One could utilize a slide, for example. Or if one was particularly good a playing harmonics with their fingers, they could probably play a chromatic scale. Either way, the instrument was not designed to be chromatic, I guess that's what I should have said.


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Invisiblemr sniffles
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
    #19261600 - 12/11/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

healing said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

healing said:
If you look at the instrument in the post above, you will see that there are string instruments that are not able to play chromatics. Look at the frets; they make it impossible to intonate any note like you can on a fretless stringed instrument.




....You don't always have to put your fingers on the frets you know. All strings change notes depending on where you press down on the string.




True. One could utilize a slide, for example. Or if one was particularly good a playing harmonics with their fingers, they could probably play a chromatic scale. Either way, the instrument was not designed to be chromatic, I guess that's what I should have said.





:mindblown:


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19261620 - 12/11/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:

Many instruments are fully chromatic, but some aren't. There are even some instruments with strings and frets that are not chromatic.





coincidentally, i just picked one of these up :smile:


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