|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19252725 - 12/09/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I feel the same way. Some folks were encouraging me to play multiple instruments then I had a bunch of elitist a saying that its counterproductive to focus. I don't believe that though and it's not in my nature to try one thing. I want to play a diverse range of music and instruments. In a year or so I think I'll take up didgeridoo and some ethnic percussion. They're very different so I don't know how much I'll be able to relate all those instruments but to hell with it. Ill have fun with it. Guitar and Trad Irish flute will be my main instruments. Didgeridoo and ethnic drums will just be for fun and relaxation. Something I won't have to take too serious and can have fun with. Ill probably add keys to my flute after I become fairly experienced. I was also thinking of trying an open tuning on my guitar but I don't want to overwhelm myself especially at this stage, haha.
What do you think?
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
larry.fisherman
shoulda died already



Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 36,294
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19252850 - 12/09/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Never stifle yourself musically. Music is emotion and the second you stifle that you lose connection to your inspired mind. Do whatever comes to mind. That includes notes and lyrics. At the start of every jam I always dedicate 5 minutes to useless random noise of all kinds, to give the proceedings perspective. If you want to start off with a triangle, start off with a fucking triangle. I guarantee anyone who's ever really enjoyed the discipline to be musical, has found the time to create music. You can either be a musician, or just 'the guitarist.'
That being said a chromatic instrument will put your mind in tune, as well as memorize scales and notes. A diatonic instrument gives more options, like a guitar, where octave notes are in abundance and less than distant. Chromatic is like a sober mind, very straight forward. Reliable but not entirely creative. Diatonic is more challenging but rewarding and mind opening for the theoretical end, so thus on my spectrum it's the trip instrument. As we all know, sobriety and tripping should be used in conjuntion, not one or the other. Elsewise perspective is muddied, boredom ensues.
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19252863 - 12/09/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah I've encountered some players who are really against people playing multiple instruments, seemingly because they are insecure about the fact that they play one instrument themselves (even if they're quite good at it.) I guess a big part of it is that there is a lot of competition for music work. For me it was a good thing to focus on one instrument first (mandolin initially) but starting multiple instruments at the same time can probably work if you've got the drive.
I've never got too far with regular guitar myself although I have a couple around the house. One open tuning that a lot of people like for Irish music is DADGAD. I have a tenor guitar that plays the same as a tenor banjo so I use that for accompaniment sometimes. I have it tuned super low with bass guitar strings (2 octaves under mandolin tuning, where normal Irish tenor guitar/banjo tuning is one octave under mandolin tuning.)
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19252930 - 12/09/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I was actually speaking about DADGAD which IMO lends itself beautifully to finger style. I'd love to learn but I may hold back on it for just a little while until I'm more experienced.
Oh, I'm giving you both five shrooms for the great information and encouragement. I really appreciate y'all's posts.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
x Ju x
Aubergine Of The Sun



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,511
Loc: Shpongleland, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19252958 - 12/09/13 10:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
There's no reason to not play multiple instruments. Unless you just choose to only play one.
Musical knowledge transitions from instrument to instrument regardless of what your actually playing. I can play guitar. I've held a flute once, but If I had one in front of me and enough time, I guarantee I could make it sing after a couple of hours. I'd have to learn how to make it produce noise first, obviously, but then I'd be able to play around with the finger coverings and recognize what notes are being played.
That's the way I learn every instrument.
--------------------
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
#19253105 - 12/09/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think it'd take more than a couple hours to make it "sing" but I get what you're saying. I think it'd take a couple hours (at least) to really get down a good embouchure for a transverse flute but that's my opinion and I've never tried but I'm hoping to soon.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
x Ju x
Aubergine Of The Sun



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,511
Loc: Shpongleland, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19253210 - 12/09/13 11:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I suppose.
I know flute is hard to master, and hard to even produce a sound out of it for a beginner. But i'm just saying that if you can play one instrument well, you'll be able to pick up on notes and such when playing another.
--------------------
|
healing
Strangest



Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 6,565
Loc: the universe, the milky w...
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
#19253763 - 12/10/13 02:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
In my experience, professional performing musicians are able to play many instruments. They will still all give you the same advice, focus on one instrument. That doesn't mean that you can't fuck around on a guitar or whatever, but if you want to be a musician you should make a concerted effort to play one instrument as best as you possibly can.
I know some people who play in internationally recognized orchestras. They are brilliant musicians when it comes to their orchestral instruments, and that brilliance also shines through when they play the guitar or drums or what have you. Those are the people who are pushing the envelope, however. They can and do play multiple instruments very well, but they all started the same way: they focused on one instrument.
-------------------- Open mind, open heart, open book.
|
x Ju x
Aubergine Of The Sun



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,511
Loc: Shpongleland, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: healing]
#19253896 - 12/10/13 04:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I agree. Sticking to one instrument can make you a master at said instrument.
I guess the reason I say learn many is because I love producing music, so I've learned through the years to play various types so I can record them myself. This also gives me a chance to learn the mixing and producing side of music as well. I just love all aspects of it. haha.
--------------------
|
Acaterpillar
A little mad...



Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 18,693
Loc: Down the rabbit hole
Last seen: 3 months, 26 days
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: x Ju x]
#19253934 - 12/10/13 04:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I would agree with the previous posters encouraging picking up multiple instruments.
I think it's best to focus on one instrument for several years to become very comfortable with it. Then after you've reached a level where you are happy with your abilities on that instrument, pick up another.
It will be frustrating to start over again, so when you're getting too irritated with no progressing at your desired rate just pick up your first instrument and have some fun on it. I find myself doing this all the time.
I played drums for 5 years before I picked up piano. And then I picked up the bass a few years after that.
-------------------- Aaa...E I O Uuu...A E I O Uuu..A E I O uh Uuu.. *Cough* *Cough* Ooo...U E I O Aaa...U E I Aaa..A E I O Uuuuu... At first sight, The Perfection of Wisdom is bewildering, full of paradox and apparent irrationality.
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Acaterpillar]
#19254169 - 12/10/13 07:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I'm thinking that a lot probably depends on the individual learner, but for me personally it was good to focus on one thing initially. An advantage to trying several instruments as a novice though is that you may hit on one instrument that comes much easier for you.
I had tried fiddle (at ~12) before I tried mandolin (18,) and the learning curve for making the fiddle sound even remotely decent was so steep that I gave up. They both have identical fingerings and even the scale lengths are pretty close, but the fact that the mandolin has frets and is picked eliminates a couple factors that make many new fiddle/violin players sound like crap for years. Once I got the basics on mandolin it wasn't too big of a jump to go to tenor banjo. Same fingerings again, but the scale length is longer and the strings are not doubled. Eventually I started to find the banjo's reach a lot more comfortable and didn't really go back to mandolin.
Clarinet and piano I had tried a bit as a kid, but I got a lot more out of them coming back later in life after learning a lot of music on mandolin/banjo.
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19254341 - 12/10/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Well I'm going to focus on guitar and take up flute as an alternative for when I'm frustrated with one or the other. I don't think I'll ever "master" guitar, I started too late but hell if I can jam on multiple instruments and just have fun with other folks then ill be happy.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19254442 - 12/10/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah completely mastering an instrument is a tall order since even great players can always advance further. Getting fairly proficient/competent in a couple years is totally doable though. IMO starting early in life is not necessarily as essential as some people make it sound. Sure it's great if you started early but you can learn at any age if you put in the work (and can at least hear the differences between tones and control your hands.)
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19254840 - 12/10/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That I can do but ultimately starting earlier means you have had more time to dedicate yourself to music and by your twenties or early twenties you could have achieved a proficient level with an instrument or even multiple because younger generations typically have more time on their hands. BUT I think bring a young adult and learning music also has its advantages, more discipline and more aware of what you like and what's worth putting in time and effort, more time conscious about what we practice. There are pros to both and cons to both.
This is the best and most rewarding hobby ever though. I wish I was more experienced so that I could go jam with some guys my age in my preferred genre of music. I feel like my learning experience is narrow when I play with the guys I play with because they use a capo so much, I learn more by myself most of the time. Mostly they just play a D,C,G rhythm with a capo and although I enjoy myself I think they should branch out a little but they're old timers and only a few come out of the box on rare occasions and play up and down the neck openly.
The best guitar player doesn't even play guitar in our sessions, lol.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19255119 - 12/10/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah there is probably also some element of your mind having greater plasticity during childhood and making learning easier, but you can't go back in time anyway. The kind of discipline required is probably less common as a kid though as you say, and if someone's really pushing you into it then you may grow to hate it.
The Irish music scene is similar to what you describe in a lot of ways. There tend to be different tiers of sessions, so you can go to beginner ones where they play very slowly slowly so you can learn easier, intermediate ones where there's a wide range of experience levels, and high level ones where they play fast and more obscure and difficult material. Those ones often are somewhat elitist and usually it's better to come just to listen if you're more of a beginner because people can get pissed off with you if your playing is distracting. If you can go to all different ones it's good because you're exposed to the full range.
To branch out beyond simple accompaniment styles it's good to know chord scales as well as different voicings/inversions of each chord. Each triad in the scale has two others similar to it, and you can get them by changing one note out of the triad. You can substitute one for the other and sometimes it works with the tune and other times it doesn't.
e.g.
G (GBD)-----> Bm(BDF) or Em(EGB) Am(ACE)-----> C (CEG) or F#dim(FAC) Bm(BDF)-----> D (DFA) or G (GBD) C (CEG)-----> Em(EGB) or Am(ACE) D (DFA)-----> F#dim(FAC) or Bm(BDF) Em(EGB)-----> G (GBD) or C (CEG) F#dim(FAC)--> Am(ACE) or D (DFA)
The diminished chord is kind of weird sounding so in Irish accompaniment you would typically use a D chord with an F bass note instead.
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19255487 - 12/10/13 01:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
That's really what I want to get into is Irish folk sessions. That's one reason for my deciding to play flute. What you said about triads is a little over my head right now, just barely, I can almost grasp what you're saying but I'm a little short. Give me a few weeks more experience, haha.
I know of triad shapes and scales but I don't understand scale relation to chords, at least I don't think I do but maybe I do, if that makes any sense. I have an idea of it but not the whole picture is what I'm trying to say.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19256385 - 12/10/13 05:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Cool man. Yeah check out thesession.org, they have a listing of Irish sessions in different parts of the world. Many North American cities have numerous different ones. Thecipher.com is a good site for understanding chord scales and that kind of thing. Modes are a good thing to understand for Irish music too. Ionian is the normal major scale, Dorian and Aeolian are common minor scales, and Mixolydian is kind of a weird one that sounds a bit major and a bit minor.
This track is a tune in D Dorian (same key signature as C major) followed by one in D Mixolydian (same key signature as G major.) The first one I think is an original composition and the second one is a common traditional tune.
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19257621 - 12/10/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I've lurked around the session a bit, I've been on several music forums in pursuit of knowledge but I find them all limited to one form of music or one form of instrument. I wish I could find a forum for everything music.
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
#19257763 - 12/10/13 09:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah the forums there are so-so (lots of bickering about which instruments are annoying) but the list of sessions is very handy. The database of tunes is cool in theory but a lot of people transcribe them weirdly. For me the simplest way to learn tunes is to get recordings and try to play along with them. You can use software to slow them down or transpose to different keys. Soulseek is a file sharing program I've found to be good for traditional music. Youtube is also good to see fingerings.
Wikipedia is pretty good for learning theory I find. When I was spending a lot of time learning theory I made a lot of charts on graph paper. I can fumble through sheet music (which typically is what is shown in the illustrations) but I found things easier to understand when I drew out the intervals on a grid. The circle of fifths is also a good thing to familiarize yourself with.
|
GreySatyr
Pagan-Psyche


Registered: 06/20/13
Posts: 3,376
Loc: North Carolina
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
#19259006 - 12/11/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah, thats why i didn't sign up for the session and another classical music forum. I'm fairly familiar with the circle of fifths. I've also been using wiki and YouTube. Something I don't understand is this...
http://eriktheflutemaker.com/
The first video he plays several flutes, one he says is major and one is minor in scale. I don't understand that, how is one major and the other minor? I also don't understand what he means by major or copy, minor for creating and oriental for relaxing. I think that's just a relative statement but I don't know. Do you understand it?
Also, what would an Irish flute be? Major or minor? Does it have to do with the holes being different sizes?
-------------------- ...also, go to hell, huh?
|
|