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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19251099 - 12/09/13 04:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Yeah I think a chromatic instrument typically is tuned in equal temperament, where a semitone is always a ratio of 1:(2^(1/12)). With an instrument that can only play in one key you can use just intonation, where the ratios work out to exact whole number ratios instead of irrational approximations. Just intonation sounds better, but equal temperament sacrifices that for versatility.




Pretty much :shrug:


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19251412 - 12/09/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay so let me see if I'm getting this right...

An instrument could be considered diatonic if was designed to be played in whole steps instead of half steps...? I don't know why I can't understand this.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251546 - 12/09/13 05:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

And on a diatonic instrument you can only play in three or four keys?


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251564 - 12/09/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How about the Chromatic Button Accordion?



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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19251616 - 12/09/13 06:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Why does everyone keep mentioning accordions and harmonicas?

I'm thinking harps, flutes, hammered dulcimers, bagpipes, didgeridoo, fiddle, stand up bass, bouzouki, mandolin, and other shit like this.


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OfflineThe Vapor
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251642 - 12/09/13 06:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Because you can have diatonic and chromatic versions of accordions and harmonicas.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251678 - 12/09/13 06:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The western diatonic scale goes like this:

whole step
whole step
whole step
half step
whole step
whole step
half step

(Incidentally you can generate six other scales from this by selecting different starting points in the sequence of intervals. Those are called modes.)

Diatonic harmonicas and accordions are based around this scale and that's why they are called "diatonic" instruments. It may be that those instruments are the only ones that get referred to as "diatonic" instruments, but there definitely are other instruments that are organized around the diatonic scale in some way (like the piano) that don't seem to get referred to as diatonic instruments.

"Chromatic" instruments are ones that can play all the letter notes and all their sharps and flats.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr] * 1
    #19251740 - 12/09/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Why does everyone keep mentioning accordions and harmonicas?

I'm thinking harps, flutes, hammered dulcimers, bagpipes, didgeridoo, fiddle, stand up bass, bouzouki, mandolin, and other shit like this.




I keep mentioning them because I can't think of anything else that I've heard referred to as a "diatonic instrument." Fretted and violin-family stringed instruments are all chromatic (although some fretted folk instruments don't have frets at every half step.) Things like flutes and bagpipes may or not be chromatic depending on how they're built (with keys or without.)


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19251871 - 12/09/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I have a basic or limited understanding now. Thanks guys. And I wasn't trying to be an ass hole about it but accordions and harmonicas aren't the only diatonic instruments, lol.

ANOTHER question, when were chromatic instruments made popular and is the keyless flute a diatonic instrument and would adding keys make it chromatic or some kinda hybrid?

Another one, wouldn't most modern instruments be chromatic while the older variations would be diatonic?

And finally, before chromatic instruments became available would three flutists be able to play a minor chord by one using a cross fingering technique or a half holing technique and how effective would it be? Did this happen often or did they just grab a flute in different key?


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251875 - 12/09/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

lol are we doing your homework?


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: memes]
    #19251912 - 12/09/13 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol. No, man. I just like to learn, I'm not in school. I'm interested in learning music theory. Some things I just don't get but in two weeks I won't even be thinking about it and it'll just come to me.

I've googled most of this shit that I'm asking an I can't get any information that I can understand although I'm starting to understand slowly but sure thanks to y'all.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251972 - 12/09/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
I guess I have a basic or limited understanding now. Thanks guys. And I wasn't trying to be an ass hole about it but accordions and harmonicas aren't the only diatonic instruments, lol.




So what other instruments are commonly described as "diatonic instruments?" I'm thinking that "non-chromatic" may be a better descriptor of what you're getting at.

Quote:

ANOTHER question, when were chromatic instruments made popular and is the keyless flute a diatonic instrument and would adding keys make it chromatic or some kinda hybrid?




I have an uncle who makes flutes and my impression is that adding more holes to an existing design throws the whole thing off tuning wise. The whole business of ensuring that the instrument is in tune (even in higher registers) seems very finicky. Chromatic wind instruments like concert flutes and clarinets tend to have a fuck of a lot of different holes and keys and levers. Look into the Boehm system of keying for woodwinds.

Quote:

Another one, wouldn't most modern instruments be chromatic while the older variations would be diatonic?




My impression is that more exist now than before. It's pretty straightforward to make a fretless stringed instrument that will play any note, but with other instrument types it's a lot more of an engineering challenge. Steel drums are a pretty "modern" instrument but I don't think they're chromatic.

Quote:

And finally, before chromatic instruments became available would three flutists be able to play a minor chord by one using a cross fingering technique or a half holing technique and how effective would it be? Did this happen often or did they just grab a flute in different key?



As far as I knew it is not possible to play chords as anything other than single notes on a flute. Some types of bagpipes can play chords though.


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InvisibleNWlight
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19251989 - 12/09/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Lol. No, man. I just like to learn, I'm not in school. I'm interested in learning music theory. Some things I just don't get but in two weeks I won't even be thinking about it and it'll just come to me.

I've googled most of this shit that I'm asking an I can't get any information that I can understand although I'm starting to understand slowly but sure thanks to y'all.



2000th


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: NWlight]
    #19252023 - 12/09/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Psi, aka Kenny Rogers, I think you misunderstood that last question. In a harmony to create a chord, three flutists would play separate notes, for instance for a C chord one would play a C, the other a E AND the last a G note to create a C chord harmony, correct?

Well if each had a traditional keyless Irish flute then how would they play a minor chord? They would have to flatten the E note by cross fingering or half holing, correct?

Sorry I'm bein a pain in the ass, haha.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: NWlight]
    #19252025 - 12/09/13 07:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not anymore bro ham.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252253 - 12/09/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GreyMorph said:
Psi, aka Kenny Rogers, I think you misunderstood that last question. In a harmony to create a chord, three flutists would play separate notes, for instance for a C chord one would play a C, the other a E AND the last a G note to create a C chord harmony, correct?

Well if each had a traditional keyless Irish flute then how would they play a minor chord? They would have to flatten the E note by cross fingering or half holing, correct?

Sorry I'm bein a pain in the ass, haha.




OK yeah I did misunderstand. Yeah I believe you are correct in principle. I'm not sure about the Eb note specifically but I've heard that an F can be produced on a D keyless Irish flute by some kind of fuckery like half holing. Simply playing the C and G notes together gives sort of a minor sound though that would be close enough. In guitar I think they call that a power chord but it's also known as a perfect fifth interval.

You may already know this but to derive chords from a scale you can take every other note. For triads from C major it goes like this:

C (CEG)
Dm(DFA)
Em(EGB)
F (FAC)
G (GBD)
Am(ACE)
Bdim(BDF)

On a C diatonic accordion most of those are not doable on the keyboard side, only C and Dm I believe. For the other ones you can play 2 of the 3 notes with your right hand, or the left hand side may have a button that plays the chord (adjacent to another one that plays a bass root note for it.)

You can extend the same principle by another note and generate various seventh chords. There are also scales that you can do the same thing with, for example the Klezmer or Flamenco scale.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252352 - 12/09/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You can play an F note on a keyless Irish flute easily, you just remove the two fingers. That's what I've read, maybe I'm wrong but only flats and sharps need be half holed cross fingered.

Sounds dirty, man.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252470 - 12/09/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it's not an instrument I know too much about directly but I have a few family members who are players so I've heard bits and pieces, a lot of which I'm fuzzy on. One interesting thing though is how the scale limitations of certain instruments encourage the use of different modes of the same key signature. Mixolydian is one of the odder ones used in Irish music.


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OfflineGreySatyr
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: psi]
    #19252579 - 12/09/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

See I've been wantin to play guitar for several years and I finally got the opportunity to get one and learn and so I am but I'm enjoying it so much that I want to learn multiple instruments and the flute is one that I'm considering. I learn pretty fast and I have a fair bit of time to practice especially during the winter so I figured I'd go for. Of course, I'm on the crash course search for knowledge in music theory. It's really such an in depth topic and music is such a multilayered facet of creativity that I never even dreamed of, it's captivating as hell how intricate it is especially as my ear becomes trained to listen and focus more clearly. It's the ultimate experience right up there with psychedelics in my opinion. There is just so much to learn...

Like I said though, I was baby to music three months ago.

I play with folks who have been playing for years and I already know more than a few of them. Don't ask me how that works. Simple minds, I suppose, good folks though.

A few of them are good enough to be professionals though at least in their respective genre of bluegrass. Particularly one who is head and shoulders above the rest and plays every typical bluegrass instrument except the fiddle and sings amazing...

But yeah, so much to learn...


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Chromatic VS Diatonic Instruments [Re: GreySatyr]
    #19252668 - 12/09/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah IMO messing around with different instruments is a good way to force your brain to conceptualize it in varying ways. My main instrument is tenor banjo which has the same fingerings as mandolin and fiddle. Everything is very logical and geometric because the intervals between strings are all the same (unlike say guitar where the G-B interval is different.) Working out the same tune in different keys is another good brain exercise. With enough practice you can do it on the fly.

Button accordion is something I started messing around with later. It's very counterintuitive in a lot of ways (largely because the pattern repeats every 3 spaces in one air direction and every 4 for the other so adjacent notes in the scale are all over the place as you get away from the center of the row) but there is potential for great economy of movement because each button produces two different notes depending on air direction.


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