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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I want to experience everything all at once.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19245320 - 12/08/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I want to experience everything all at once.
Yes, well, once -- in 1973, on a particularly high quality dose of LSD and in the perfect setting and with the perfect people -- I did.
Anyone reading here who has had the "no-holds barred lollapalooza mystical experience on LSD" knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Let me tell you... there's a definite comfort sitting here in front of my fuckin' computer and talking glibly about it.
The experience is not for the squeamish or weak of heart, I can tell you that.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Again I must ask. How did you know you experienced everything there is to possibly experience all at once? Just because it felt like that to you is hardly convincing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19245922 - 12/08/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Again I must ask. How did you know you experienced everything there is to possibly experience all at once? Just because it felt like that to you is hardly convincing.
You're right. My experiences are not necessarily reflective of objective reality (whatever the hell that is).
The nature of the mystical encounter is such that its "reality" is undeniable to the experiencer. But then again, "mystical" is a subjective concept. The voodoo practitioners in Haiti, for example, consider their experiences "mystical" as well.
You're a good sport for engaging me in this stuff.
Thanks.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Glad you can handle it with some grace. My real position is that it's impossible to know anything with certainty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19246550 - 12/08/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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how do you know that?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I don't but it's my position on the subject. I think there is some evidence for that position although there is no certainty.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19246706 - 12/08/13 07:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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fair enough
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bootster

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absols
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19248645 - 12/09/13 03:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: I want to experience everything all at once. 
I like this sentence it shows how you are close to see right ..
but what you might not know is truth ways through those relative moves ...
it is not really about experiencing anything.. it is more about logics
like you cant move unless you stay out of your move ... even if you don't want to stay or you don't mean to ... even if you can give away your stay .. it is not the logical point
it is truly about being objective the most possible, so the end of it is you staying
who does it right in all ways meaning the truth through meaning sorry but I stay what next innocently .. is the closest to true existence fact of being individually ..
it shows then, that objective truth freedom is first ... that is why it is truth that brings existence through that way to else, from recognizing objective rights all once for self freedom existence out
so truth know who is individually more right to support or do even his moves out first .. does saying that gives hope?? no, on the contrary .. when saying things right doesn't do anything positive doesn't take out the negative on rights, all the lies forces... then it becomes more scary ..
Edited by absols (12/09/13 03:28 AM)
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cez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Deviate]
#19249804 - 12/09/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it's interesting mankind , generally speaking, has usually either believed in a god or pondered the existence of one/ some. It kinda seems like the human psyche was programmed to think this way.
Anyways idk 
I like your viewpoints here Deviate but the logic of uncertainty seems most beneficial I think. To further this thought, philophical teachings, including the teachings of Jesus in The Gospels emphasize a flexible mind. This is impossible with a fixed notion of what god is.
Edited by cez (12/09/13 01:37 PM)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Deviate]
#19251660 - 12/09/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: The Lord God created us in order so that he could become conscious of himself. You see without creation, God is conscious but he does not know that he conscious, he simply IS. But through individualizing himself into what we call "beings", God is able to come apart from Himself and thus explore himself from the inside out. The end result of this process is God coming to know who he is in a totally conscious way. This is the state of God-realization, where the illusion of duality is broken. Traditionally, the Lord Jesus Christ is associated with this state of consciousness more than any other person. It is not the highest level of consciousness however, growth in awareness continues even after God-realization.
I think any belief that pretends to know what a God, by definition an intelligent, conscious being of vaster greater intellect than ourselves, can think or what His or Her purpose is in doing anything is incredibly naive and over-optimistic. You might as well expect an ant to be able to predict why a human just sprayed his nest with pesticide.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: deCypher]
#19252222 - 12/09/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bingo!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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endogenous
נפל מגיהינום


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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19253167 - 12/09/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do you believe that God created our physical bodies? I don't believe that - just the opposite.
God doesn't create things that suffer and die.
God might help to save us from this imperfect creation however.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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endogenous
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: deCypher]
#19253277 - 12/09/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said: You might as well expect an ant to be able to predict why a human just sprayed his nest with pesticide.
I wouldn't assume that an ant wouldn't understand that.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Deviate
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Icelander]
#19253905 - 12/10/13 04:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Awareness. If you look deeply into the nature of things it becomes clear that truth is your natural state and it is merely obscured by the wiles of the ego. Therefore, truth is not something to be obtained it is actually alive and is accessible since you only need remove that which covers it.
Then you undergo a shift in consciousness. How do you know the shifted state is any more true than the egoic state? because you see it. It is like if you see mirage of water on the street and then you get closer and you see it was only a mirage and there is no real water there. You dont wonder "hmmm how do I know there is no water here? What if my perception when I was seeing the mirage was correct and I am misperceiving now?"
Thats what spiritual realization is like, only its more powerful than that because at the higher levels, the questioner/doubter/concluder disappears (and yet you remain fully conscious) so there is no one left to even ask "is this a delusion?" that is how you get absolute certainty of truth, by losing the ability to think about truth or falsehood as though in deep sleep except you remain conscious. Realization has been described as waking sleep in fact.
But why do you not know these things Icelander? You have been posting on a spirituality and mysticism forum for years, have you really never glimpsed realization? Do you mean to tell me that you have never seen beyond the veil?
I certainly haven't seen beyond your veil. I've seen things you don't seem to be aware of in the same way however. And I certainly don't think Jesus is a lord or a god or any of that.
From your posts here I'm not really convinced that you do anything beyond believing in religion by faith. Nothing wrong with that but it's not any ultimate god realization imo or experience. In my world view from a lot of experience that is hubris. 
I think I'm every bit as aware as you if not more so. 
We are all equally aware, it's just the content of our minds which differs. Some people are more or less identified with their egoic selvers than others and we call this gradations of awareness, but in truth all are equally aware.
Any description I give, is just a description and not some ultimate truth. But, I think it can be said that the purpose of life is growth in awareness. Of course you may be able to find some not incorrect perspective on things in which that isn't the case. Thats how reality is, especially when it comes to questions like meaning and purpose, what is true depends largely on how you look at it. But, looking at the perspective that its all about growth in awareness, is not a bad way to look at things if growth in awareness is something you appreciate. At least thats how I see things.
Oh and what do you mean you are not convinced I do anything beyond believing in a religion by faith? What is there to do? Telepathy? Magical powers? Enlightenment isn't something you do, its something that you become and I certainly have not attained enlightenment nor claimed to. In fact, the more I grow spiritually, the more I realize how stupid, wicked and unenlightened I am. But I know that my consciousness is headed in the direction of growth and I have glimpsed levels which are higher than my current level. But I think its time for me to let go of any desire I have to convince anyone about this, especially you. The others people on this forum who also have attained levels of realization understand me, those who havent do not.
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Deviate
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: endogenous]
#19253910 - 12/10/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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endogenous said: Why do you believe that God created our physical bodies? I don't believe that - just the opposite.
God doesn't create things that suffer and die.
God might help to save us from this imperfect creation however.
Well I believe that there is nothing besides God. Everything that is, is ultimately God, so in that sense I dont believe in creation at all. Matter is simply spirit in disguise. But if we are going to pretend that matter exists and our bodies, then who created them if not God? You are right that God does not create things that suffer and die, but he gave man freedom and through misuse of that freedom, man found himself in a situation where he was subject to suffering and death. But its not real.
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Deviate
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: deCypher]
#19253922 - 12/10/13 04:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Deviate said: The Lord God created us in order so that he could become conscious of himself. You see without creation, God is conscious but he does not know that he conscious, he simply IS. But through individualizing himself into what we call "beings", God is able to come apart from Himself and thus explore himself from the inside out. The end result of this process is God coming to know who he is in a totally conscious way. This is the state of God-realization, where the illusion of duality is broken. Traditionally, the Lord Jesus Christ is associated with this state of consciousness more than any other person. It is not the highest level of consciousness however, growth in awareness continues even after God-realization.
I think any belief that pretends to know what a God, by definition an intelligent, conscious being of vaster greater intellect than ourselves, can think or what His or Her purpose is in doing anything is incredibly naive and over-optimistic. You might as well expect an ant to be able to predict why a human just sprayed his nest with pesticide. 
Yes it is in a way, but you also must remember that we are part of this whole process that some call God and this gives as a very intimate peak at it. Of course its ultimate purpose is far beyond anything that our intellect can grasp and yet, our intellect can sort of get a sense of its own role in this process and that that role involves growth, and realization. We can get a sense that our ultimate purpose is to gain wisdom and understanding and not to chase after fleeting pleasures, if for no other reason than the former is fullfilling on multiple levels of our being and the latter is not.
You see we must learn to trust ourselves. Not our egos but ourselves. Somewhere deep within our beings there is a wisdom that tells us how things are. Its the primordial intelligence at work. It was the primordial intelligence which prompted you to write that post. The primordial intelligence welled up inside you and told you that "I think any belief that pretends to know what a God, by definition an intelligent, conscious being of vaster greater intellect than ourselves, can think or what His or Her purpose is in doing anything is incredibly naive and over-optimistic" and this is quite true and yet at the same time, you must recognize that you possess the very intelligence which gave you this knowledge and this is the same intelligence that prompted me to see life as involving the growth in awareness. Do you see how its just all just perspectives on the infinite and unfathomable unknown? In truth God is the ultimate unknown mystery and yet we can turn our minds to comtemplation of this mystery rather than toward worldly gain.
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Into The Woods
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: Deviate]
#19253924 - 12/10/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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God created me to fart on this thread.
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Deviate
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Re: Why did God create you? [Re: absols]
#19253927 - 12/10/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
absols said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Awareness. If you look deeply into the nature of things it becomes clear that truth is your natural state and it is merely obscured by the wiles of the ego. Therefore, truth is not something to be obtained it is actually alive and is accessible since you only need remove that which covers it.
Then you undergo a shift in consciousness. How do you know the shifted state is any more true than the egoic state? because you see it. It is like if you see mirage of water on the street and then you get closer and you see it was only a mirage and there is no real water there. You dont wonder "hmmm how do I know there is no water here? What if my perception when I was seeing the mirage was correct and I am misperceiving now?"
Thats what spiritual realization is like, only its more powerful than that because at the higher levels, the questioner/doubter/concluder disappears (and yet you remain fully conscious) so there is no one left to even ask "is this a delusion?" that is how you get absolute certainty of truth, by losing the ability to think about truth or falsehood as though in deep sleep except you remain conscious. Realization has been described as waking sleep in fact.
But why do you not know these things Icelander? You have been posting on a spirituality and mysticism forum for years, have you really never glimpsed realization? Do you mean to tell me that you have never seen beyond the veil?
you cant mean the truth out of lies whatever you experience seeing out of yourself senses could be true relatively to you, which is not infinite truth nor yourself being right
nothing is also true, another is also true, still object is also true, yesterday is also true, tomorrow too, ... what is the common between all those different true entities ?? freedom that could be right, then we say it is existing, or not right then we say it should not exist
By truth I mean a shift in consciousness that exposes more than was exposed before. I dont mean ultimate truth. It could very well be that tomorrow you will have a realization that totally turns all your prior understanding of God/life on it's head.
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