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viktor
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The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard
#19242936 - 12/07/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"If you were not absolute perfection, God would have made you different, and since He made the others different and not you, you must be absolute perfection."
If I'm made in the image of God then everyone must be shit. Thinking that everyone else is shit is what I need to get through my day.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor] 2
#19242962 - 12/07/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's amazing how culturally ingrained christianity is in our western psyches. No matter how much we come to realize it is based in a form of self deceit and madness we cannot fully purge it from our minds.
But I give much kudos and credit to those that make the attempt. Still these threads on christianity, for or against, are a dime a dozen.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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viktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19242969 - 12/07/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't even know if kudos are deserved. Battling Christianity still puts people in the "Christianty - Good or Bad?" paradigm rather than the "What really is going on?" one, which is what Christians want.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19242970 - 12/07/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Christianity is based on spiritual truth.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19242975 - 12/07/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Says you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor]
#19242983 - 12/07/13 10:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: I don't even know if kudos are deserved. Battling Christianity still puts people in the "Christianty - Good or Bad?" paradigm rather than the "What really is going on?" one, which is what Christians want.
It does, but like I said we can't help it. It's a cultural paradigm instilled in the hard drive of many and when we are at our most vulnerable.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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viktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19242987 - 12/07/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Christianity is based on spiritual truth.
It must be because I am a Christian and if it wasn't I would have chosen something else. QED.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor]
#19242993 - 12/07/13 10:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: I don't even know if kudos are deserved. Battling Christianity still puts people in the "Christianty - Good or Bad?" paradigm rather than the "What really is going on?" one, which is what Christians want.
No, I want the what is really going on Paradigm. Icelander and many others who post here are stuck in the good or bad paradigm.
Wisdom does not see things as good or bad, things simply are and then our thinking makes them either good or bad.
Christianity just is. Or it is what you make of it. Some people follow the Christian path to awakening. That is beautiful. Awakening is beautiful and all paths that lead to awakening are also beautiful. But most people who are asleep do not see this. They are stuck on labeling things good or bad, this or that, courageous or cowardly, endless labeling.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243104 - 12/07/13 11:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's like saying the Nazi's were on a spiritual path. If you think it's good then it is. 
And as I've said I have nothing against christianity per se but when within it's practice you support a horrendous and corrupt religion/church then I see a real problem in the mental state of the person.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19243223 - 12/08/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There you go, seeing good and bad, seeing problems, these are labels. Look beyond labels.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243324 - 12/08/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There you go ignoring uncomfortable truths so you can pursue personal agendas. 
Maybe someone should have told that to Jesus when he got pissed at the money changers and challenged the pharisees.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (12/08/13 02:19 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19243615 - 12/08/13 03:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What truths am I ignoring? Your opinions?
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Chronic7
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor] 1
#19243664 - 12/08/13 04:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:

"If you were not absolute perfection, God would have made you different, and since He made the others different and not you, you must be absolute perfection."
If I'm made in the image of God then everyone must be shit. Thinking that everyone else is shit is what I need to get through my day.
Quite a few religions twist it to make them seem better than others, when i've recently seen American Christians on TV i can see why there's so many hate threads coming from there to be honest, they can sound like nutcases, people really can use religion to further their ignorance rather than quell it which is what it's meant to do, so that is not Christianity imo, its not people finding God its man being misled by man pretending to know what God wants
True Christianity is becoming Christ & nothing less, imo
Even with their ignroance i can't help feel for American Christians, the USA is a country with internal influences that have an active war against true Christian values, its no coincidence IMO how the non-christian owned media pumps out these nutcases while the real values are left behind to rot
--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243665 - 12/08/13 04:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, you are ignoring the horrendous actions of the Catholic church and if you are not ignoring them that is sadder still.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19243713 - 12/08/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: No, you are ignoring the horrendous actions of the Catholic church and if you are not ignoring them that is sadder still.
That is just a thought. I am going deep within myself, beyond thoughts. Why do you concern with my spiritual practice?
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Icyus
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243735 - 12/08/13 05:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would, given the history, blow this of as ego-promoting mankpulation.
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243744 - 12/08/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: No, you are ignoring the horrendous actions of the Catholic church and if you are not ignoring them that is sadder still.
That is just a thought. I am going deep within myself, beyond thoughts. Why do you concern with my spiritual practice?
Why are you concerned that you think I may be concerned? Doesn't sound that thoughtless if you care so much.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19243748 - 12/08/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't care that much, but I fully admit that my ego is a hypocrite so if you want to point out flaws in my ego, go ahead. They are all true and much worse things about me are also true. This recognition, that one is hopelessly trapped by thoughts and concepts and whatever flaws one sees in others, one is also guilty of, is a big step in the process awakening.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243754 - 12/08/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know that about myself also. The idea I've been attempting to get across is I don't need to align myself with criminal organizations to realize such things. By criminal I mean organizations that harm other humans physically and psychologically and or spiritually.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19243776 - 12/08/13 06:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, by that definition every organization is a criminal organization. If you dont feel any need to align yourself with a criminal organization, then you don't have to. Life gives you that freedom.
But dont you see that criminal organization is just a thought? it does not matter how much evidence you have to "prove" it. Its still a label. What about the souls the Catholic Church has saved? Do they count for nothing? I'm not saying they do, but why is it that you mention the "bad" and completely ignore the "good". Is that how you go about finding the truth?
Let me give you an example. When I was a kid in New York City my mother locked the keys inside the car. We were stuck there. Luckily, a car thief happened to walk by at that moment and overheard my mother complaining about having locked the keys inside the car. He offered to open the car for us and in a few minutes we gotten into the car and were free to leave.
Now I understand that perhaps because of your moral sense, you would have refused his help. In your mind it is wrong to involve yourself with a criminal, even if it is to your benefit. That's ok, you are free to look at things that way.
However, I dont look at things that way. I will accept help, even from criminals at times, if they have something I really need and in the case of the Catholic Church I needed the Holy Eucharist and faith community.
Furthermore as I was trying to explain, "criminal organization" is just your concept. In reality organizations do not even exist in a sense. There are just people. Think about it. Is the Catholic Church an actual thing or is it a human concept that describes a great many of related people, events and ideas across space and time?
So when it comes down to it, its just people. Every where it is just people doing various things. Some of the people are good, some of them not so good but any standard by which you try to measure things is entirely relative. Therefore it is silly for you to expect your judgments to hold true for anyone besides yourself. Your judgments are made relative to your sense of self, which is conditioned by past experiences. If you had grown up in the Catholic Church and had a very positive experience with it, you would probably feel differently. Its just conditioning.
Edited by Deviate (12/08/13 06:21 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19243807 - 12/08/13 06:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What about the souls the Catholic Church has saved?
Well if I thought there was a shred of truth to this I might agree. However I've seen no evidence whatsoever of that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19252012 - 12/09/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: No, you are ignoring the horrendous actions of the Catholic church and if you are not ignoring them that is sadder still.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19252229 - 12/09/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What about the souls the Catholic Church has saved?
Well if I thought there was a shred of truth to this I might agree. However I've seen no evidence whatsoever of that.
Ok but you have to understand that reality extends beyond merely what you can see. Your opinions are relative to you and your experiences. If you were someone who had grown spiritually as a result of their practice of Catholocism, your opinion would be completely different. What makes you think your perspective is more right or true than anyone elses?
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate] 1
#19252260 - 12/09/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Did I say I thought mine are more true? No I did not, but let me ask you this. Do you ever judge others by their perspective? For instance do you think the Nazi's idea to exterminate undesirables was no more or less right and true than anyone elses?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19252645 - 12/09/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think ideas and actions that don't stem from love and truth lead to suffering. Hence, having a pure heart, filled with love and truth is the most important thing.
It follows from this that the Catholic Church, as well as most other churches are an extremely positive thing for the world on an overall level. Anything that makes people question the idea that their might be something more important than their immediate material gain is extremely positive. So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth. Even if that truth is mixed with falsehood and heresy, it is still much better than the millions of completely pointless activities most people spend their lives consumed by. But that's looking at things from a spiritual perspective.
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cez

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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19252676 - 12/09/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Catholic Church is more corrupt than the US government. I like this pope though 
Humanity's salvation has been attempted through the Catholic Church for centuries and we are still fucked.
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deCypher



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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19252871 - 12/09/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth.
Personally, I think a course in critical thinking would be much more effective and far less likely to cause all the problems the Church has contributed to.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
#19253797 - 12/10/13 02:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?
Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).
Edited by Deviate (12/10/13 03:05 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
#19254696 - 12/10/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Deviate said: So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth.
Personally, I think a course in critical thinking would be much more effective and far less likely to cause all the problems the Church has contributed to. 
Of course this is true. But if you begin to think critically most of your little comforting fantasies pop like the little soap bubbles they are. Not many have the guts for a life like that. And really, who can blame them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19254796 - 12/10/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wonder of the rippling effect of initial perceived evils... I wonder how much freedom eventually stems from the confusion/manipulation and self created boxes people find themselves in; not just in the strict devotee but in everyone around them and further on. I wonder if as a whole,in the grand scheme if it isn't all propelling us towards light/freedom. Perhaps perceived evils are the most influential and most awakening?
Extreme mental slavery = aggressive creation of free/self-insightful beings?
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/10/13 10:57 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
#19254856 - 12/10/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Grand scheme? You mean grand fairy tale. If there is a god there should be no ignorance in man to overcome unless that god is malevolent of course. Really, do you actually entertain such thoughts seriously? Rational thinking will quickly put an end to such nonsense.
It never ceases to amaze me that most of humanity is not rational in their emotional psychology. And yet we dominate the planet for the time being.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19255146 - 12/10/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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just a miss understanding on your part
the grand scheme, in the grand picture. Behind the scene. The effects that happen that we don't necessarily perceive initially or ever.
Like how the one is in the all and the all is in the one
horrendous acts/perceived evils/negatives may be the leading influence in freeing minds. The bigger the construct or negative effect the more likely a place for self-insight and self-release to manifest? If not in the constructed being then perhaps in the onlookers or those in the ripples/causing ripples?(like us )
the grand scheme to me is how the littlest thing can cause such a huge difference in the make up and lay out of the world.... I often wonder about all the little insects I've bred and set loose upon the world via my garden and experiments... throughout my life its had to have equaled millions of little creatures due to my existence... I wonder if those little creatures actually mean life and death around the globe.... not necessarily the life and death of the insects but even of the large creatures/humans. I wonder if anyone or anything would be where it is if it weren't for where I am and for where I've been(or even just from the insects I've influenced alone)... this goes for everything and anything. If you weren't exactly where you were, then I wouldn't be where I am?
the littlest grain of sand to the largest galaxy the furthest away... everything is exactly where it is because everything else is exactly where it is...seems likely unless some benevolent/malevolent being is out there moving thing around hehe... I can't rule it out.
Edited by Sse (12/10/13 12:47 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
#19255285 - 12/10/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I'm glad that since I misunderstand that you're here to understand what I'm misunderstanding.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19255326 - 12/10/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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hehe well you made it easy enough... though I may never completely understand your misunderstanding and you may never completely understand my understandings/understanding of your misunderstanding which could be misunderstood still 
words are hollow
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/10/13 01:01 PM)
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deCypher



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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19255503 - 12/10/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?
You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills. 
Quote:
Deviate said: Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).
The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it. The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking. We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.
At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others. In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must. It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
#19255840 - 12/10/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sse said: hehe well you made it easy enough... though I may never completely understand your misunderstanding and you may never completely understand my understandings/understanding of your misunderstanding which could be misunderstood still 
words are hollow 
Especially when you use them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
#19255846 - 12/10/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said:
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Deviate said: What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?
You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills. 
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Deviate said: Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).
The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it. The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking. We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.
At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others. In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must. It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.
nice It's lack of critical thinking that makes our world what it is today.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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viktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19258312 - 12/11/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: It never ceases to amaze me that most of humanity is not rational in their emotional psychology. And yet we dominate the planet for the time being. 
But the humans that are rational dominate the irrational ones. Or at least keep them under some degree of control most of the time.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor]
#19258931 - 12/11/13 06:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hardly agree with such a blanket statement. To be truly rational is to see the big picture.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MotherNaturesSon
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19259749 - 12/11/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"If you were not absolute perfection, God would have made you different, and since He made the others different and not you, you must be absolute perfection."

This is hardly an argument and it is not in any way a good one "for christianity"
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Deviate said: No, I want the what is really going on Paradigm. Icelander and many others who post here are stuck in the good or bad paradigm.

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Deviate said: Wisdom does not see things as good or bad, things simply are and then our thinking makes them either good or bad.
Christianity just is. Or it is what you make of it. Some people follow the Christian path to awakening. That is beautiful. Awakening is beautiful and all paths that lead to awakening are also beautiful. But most people who are asleep do not see this. They are stuck on labeling things good or bad, this or that, courageous or cowardly, endless labeling.
Oh yes, please give us more of your wisdom, your uttermost refined level of sophistry 
The good old "Things aren't the way you think, because you label things. Things simply are [the way I label them]" technique. Same as saying "I am not a criminal for having broken the law. I am simply me." A crude attempt to cover a truth with another, more general indisputable truth, thus creating the illusion of being indisputably right on a subject.
A nice little sophistic stunt, however, you're wrong. "Christianity just is" my ass. Christianity is a great deal of many things and the actions of this faith as a whole has ensured that it is nowhere near such a sublime state as simply being 
It's easy to to cry that others are just labelling things and that you're so above that whilst using a whole array of labels of your own in fact, many have to start using labels to answer your positive-label ridden opinion
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deCypher said: You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills. 
wouldn't be the first time Deviate has contradicted himself 
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And thus Deviate said onto the Shroomery:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some. -Deviate 9:1
I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person. -Deviate 9:3
but from a discussion we had, he said it was cool since all spiritual scriptures do it 
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deCypher said: The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it. The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking. We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.
At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others. In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must. It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.
right on
I truly have nothing against spirituality, but I dislike those as described by deCypher. In my own humble opinion; christianity, as an organised religion falls into that haystack categrory the bare teachings of christianity are what they are. If people want to get jiggy with heaven and hell, guilt and sin and that works for them; fine. But please, leave other-minded people out of it. It is the only reason people are so butthurt over christianity anyway. Because of their insistent and intrusive nagging, raping and reprogramming of independent minds.
And the OP is no valid or good argument for such a thing. Simple as that
Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/11/13 12:09 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
#19259818 - 12/11/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He sees lots of things as good or bad right or wrong when it suits him. In the future I'll be pointing them out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19260061 - 12/11/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've lost track of which Christians on the board we're talking about in the recent posts here (lol), but I say we give them all some slack.
Provided they're not trying to convert the board to Christianity (I don't recall seeing that from anyone), they're just trying to come to grips with their spiritual impulses using a vocabulary and mythology that's comfortable for them.
And isn't that what we're all doing, after all?
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19260528 - 12/11/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do they need slack from me? I pretty much treat all the religions the same here. Plus if anything I'm pointing out things in the religion itself rather than the individual.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19260665 - 12/11/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said: I've lost track of which Christians on the board we're talking about in the recent posts here (lol), but I say we give them all some slack.
Provided they're not trying to convert the board to Christianity (I don't recall seeing that from anyone), they're just trying to come to grips with their spiritual impulses using a vocabulary and mythology that's comfortable for them.
And isn't that what we're all doing, after all?
I agree, considering this is what this forum is for. This isn't a debate forum, more of an open ideas and speculation forum.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260678 - 12/11/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No one debates here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19260734 - 12/11/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No bickering either.
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260830 - 12/11/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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White Beard said: This isn't a debate forum, more of an open ideas and speculation forum.
True, but the line between "open ideas and speculation" and "debate" -- when it comes to spiritual matters -- can be a bit fuzzy. I'm sure it drives the moderators of this forum crazy.
Free and open discussion, when it concerns spiritual stuff, is bound to lead to "debate." If it didn't, there would be no meaningful exchange of ideas. People would just speak their speak and no one would question or challenge them. B-O-R-I-N-G!
The key, in my opinion, is to remain civil and respectful.
Challenge ideas, but don't impugn the sincerity of the voicer of the ideas.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260975 - 12/11/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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White Beard said: No bickering either. 
That's way too much to ask dude. Have you forgotten what planet you're on?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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rcm61132110
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265209 - 12/12/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: It's amazing how culturally ingrained christianity is in our western psyches. No matter how much we come to realize it is based in a form of self deceit and madness we cannot fully purge it from our minds.
But I give much kudos and credit to those that make the attempt. Still these threads on christianity, for or against, are a dime a dozen.
I'm curious- genuinely curious, as to how Christianity is based on self deceit? Now are you referring to Westernized Christianity? Or actual Christianity. There is a difference. You see, Christianity is not about following rules, it is not about going to church, it is not about giving disaster relief, it is not about any of those things. It is a way of life, and the model is supposed to be Christ. Now, here is the kicker- whether you believe Christ is divine or not, YOU CANNOT DENY HE WAS A GREAT TEACHER. He helped the poor, he did not condemn others, he taught to serve others- no matter what, he taught to always fogive, to always love, and to always turn the other cheek.
That being said, Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God. I am a Christian but I don't go to church- just simply try to live my life as Christ, loving, serving, compassionate, and selfless.
Im not here to get into a debate- here is my disclaimer. Spiritual Beliefs is a journey everyone must explore on their own. I just know I have had deep personal experiences on a year long spiritual retreat. No I never heard or saw things. But I did have a profound change of the pyshce, and several times I felt the presence of a greater being-- and during these moments I felt absolute peace and comfort. Just my experience- that's it- one persons experience.
But I will say this- if you don't believe someone elses beliefs- it is a sure sign of ignorance if you condemn or criticize their beliefs. Who cares what they believe? Who cares if is different than our beliefs? That's every man and womans right to believe what they want. I don't believe in Mormonism but I still show em love. Cause love is what matters
/endrantthatisntevenarant
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19265335 - 12/12/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God.
I almost agree with this statement. It's not really attempting to explain god but rather explaining a belief in a god. I see no convincing evidence that this god exists.
If you want to be kind, loving, good, you don't need a belief in anything other than those ideas to pursue that course of action. So then there must be other reasons.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265461 - 12/12/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The words themselves are all hollow. We will continue to fill in with our own projections. All our understandings/perceptions are from an internal set of experiences, so misunderstandings are going around all the time... even when we think we are understanding there may/probably is a degree of misunderstanding present. Point/past of views galore.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/12/13 12:02 PM)
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rcm61132110
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265605 - 12/12/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God.
I almost agree with this statement. It's not really attempting to explain god but rather explaining a belief in a god. I see no convincing evidence that this god exists.
If you want to be kind, loving, good, you don't need a belief in anything other than those ideas to pursue that course of action. So then there must be other reasons. 
The most dangerous thing is not a weapon, but an idea. With an idea you can persuade the masses- and manipulate them. I know the Nazi's had spiritual beliefs- and they where very dangerous. In the same sense- Christians can be dangerous too, so can Muslims, so can Atheist, so can anyone.
On your second point- I HATE it when I see other Christians trying to force their beliefs on someone. People cannot MAKE someone convert to a belief structure, it has never worked and never will. The person must come to embrace what ever beliefs those are- on their own. I don't ever force my beliefs- because I had it done to me as a young boy, and I know how intrusice, and condescending it feels. But if someone asks me then sure I share my beliefs. Besides these Christians you speak of shoving stuff down peoples throats are really just full of pride- no man has the right to judge another man- for any reason- for their spiritual beliefs.
As for not being sure if Jesus existed- their are MANY sources outside of the Bible mentioning him- Certain Roman senators mention him, certain ilsamic prophets mention him, and there is ALOT of historical evidence he existed. However, just because he existed does NOT automatically mean he is devine. That is something that CAN NOT BE PROVEN, OR DISPROVEN.
Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19266863 - 12/12/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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rcm61132110 said: Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
It's quite a compatible thing to be Christian and to question traditional Christian dogma. Fundamentalist Christians will deny this, but they are caught up in the most insidious of spiritual / metaphysical traps, in my opinion.
I've suggested this in past posts, and I want to suggest it again.
Christian mythology -- the birth, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus -- is perhaps the most perfect expression of the spiritual / mystical impulse that has ever been imagined by humankind.
In my opinion, it's not literally true -- but it's the most near-perfect metaphorical reflection of intuitive spiritual insight that has ever been expressed by humankind.
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viktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19268687 - 12/12/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The problem is that nobody trusts any person who says they're a Christian. No matter how open-minded or sincere they claim to be, it's always been, in my experience, just a trick to empower the Christian political machine rather than help someone find spiritual truth, which could just as well be done outside of the Christian context.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19268882 - 12/13/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
I find that hard to believe. I have no interest in legislating your life choices and yet you are constantly criticizing me. Ever notice how on the internet its the atheists who are trying to covert everyone to their belief system? Also, just because some Christians have supported unwise laws in a misguided effort to reduce sin, does not mean that all Christians are like that or that that has anything to do with the core of what Christianity is about. What life choices are you even talking about? Drugs? I hope not because if you look at history you'll see that most drug laws were actually enacted by small branches of government without widespread public support. Furthermore, drugs and Christianity co-existed legally for over 1900 years, its only the last century most drugs became illegal. And plenty of people who arent particularly religious are very against drugs. It's really a matter of the general public being very ignorant about drugs and the government preferring to keep it that way than anything to do with religion. So what is it then? What exactly are Christians preventing you from doing and how are they any more guilty than any other person who supports a law you may not agree with? Are people not allowed to have different political views from you?
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As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
How does that matter? Whether or not Jesus actually existed, the "Jesus" we know today is very real in the psyche of the world and this Jesus is an excellent teacher. If he was actually real that's just icing on the cake.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 12:42 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19268908 - 12/13/13 12:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
rcm61132110 said: Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
It's quite a compatible thing to be Christian and to question traditional Christian dogma. Fundamentalist Christians will deny this, but they are caught up in the most insidious of spiritual / metaphysical traps, in my opinion.
I've suggested this in past posts, and I want to suggest it again.
Christian mythology -- the birth, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus -- is perhaps the most perfect expression of the spiritual / mystical impulse that has ever been imagined by humankind.
In my opinion, it's not literally true -- but it's the most near-perfect metaphorical reflection of intuitive spiritual insight that has ever been expressed by humankind.
Yes yes, that is exactly how I feel. The whole Christian religion is an incredible outward reflection of the inner experience of spiritual awakening. It's remarkable really. But unfortunately its probably also the most misunderstood thing ever. ANd I am not talking about Christians here. Yes Christians can and often do misunderstand the Bible (myself included of course) but thats really not as important as it seems because anyone who really believes and tries to follow what the Bible says, even if they dont understand it perfectly, is on the path to awakening, whether or not they realize it yet.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 12:47 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19268946 - 12/13/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have no interest in legislating your life choices and yet you are constantly criticizing me.
I've never ever ever criticized you once ever at least intentionally. I have critiqued the beliefs you put forward here. There's a big difference and you ought to know that. 
Secondly you are not the sole representative of that religion so you hardly make a case for anything by putting yourself forth as an example. Not to mention the fact that saying something does not makes it true. Then you jump on drugs as if you know what I'm referring to and go off on a tirade in the wrong direction. Drugs never came to mind. I was thinking more along the lines of birth control or things like my sex life. Promoting religious beliefs in education etc. When I was a kid we had to pray in school in the morning. It certainly was not part of an education. I was being brainwashed and refusing brought down the wrath of the teacher on you one way or another. In this country at least many christians want to control how I live my life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269017 - 12/13/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Now that's just ridiculous. Enculteration IS brainwashing. When I was taking biology I was being brainwashed. That is what the educational system does, it brainwashes kids to think alike.
Your complaint is essentially "I dont like the culture I was raised in". I was raised in an atheistic household and yet there are tons of things I was taught that ended up being harmful to me. This has nothing to do with Christianity, this is being a human being.
No wonder you hate Christianity so much. Its your skapegoat.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:22 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269031 - 12/13/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What you fail, likely by choice, to comprehend is that prayer was not part the of brainwashing I was supposed to be getting. It was a small group of religious people determining, illegally imo, what should go into my mind.
My complaint is I don't like the christian aspect of the culture that determines what my actions might be. There is supposed to be separation of church and state to protect my rights not to be religious.
I like much of what is in my culture so your scapegoat statement fails and you use it as a justification for your religion trying to influence my personal life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269043 - 12/13/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is no separation between culture and influencing our personal lives. If you want to complain that something illegal happening in your school, then I would take that up with the school and the people involved. It has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I'm concerned. If I rob a store to give money to the church does that mean the church is to blame? I am to blame.
But the large issue here is that that is what the world does, it tries to tell us how things are and what to believe and even how to conduct our personal lives. if we listen to the world, we can get into big trouble.
Luckily, within this brainwashing there are spiritual teachings that hint to us that if we look deep in our hearts, we can find our own truth, a truth that is transcendent and independent to the world and how it wants us to be. Christianity calls this truth God, or the Holy Spirit. So oddly enough, it is through bainwashing that we eventually can undo our brainwashing.
Religions are like a computer program that when you run it, it wipes the whole hard drive.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269070 - 12/13/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I'm concerned. If I rob a store to give money to the church does that mean the church is to blame? I am to blame.
This was so irrational I couldn't finish your post before responding. 
How was I to take it up with the school when I was 6 years old. I didn't know until much much later that they were violating my rights.
How am I to blame if I was forced to pray in school. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Now I'll read the rest.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269082 - 12/13/13 01:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Religions are like a computer program that when you run it, it wipes the whole hard drive.
Exactly what attempts to happen. (fortunately often it fails) The problem is that someone besides me wanted to run it and was able to force it on me. I've been trying to explain that because that's what I've been saying from the beginning in this conversation and I never said anything else or was making any other point and you've spent all your responses to me trying to obfuscate that very simple fact.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269096 - 12/13/13 01:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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All I am saying is that having someone else force their beliefs on you is part of life on planet earth. Its not right of course, especially when done aggressively and yet its almost unavoidable. Culture would fall apart if people didnt force their children to accept their version of reality. Its not something speficic to Christianity. If you had been born in a moon god worshipping culture, you would have been forced to worship the moon god. If you lived in a scientific culture, you would have been forced to see the world through the lens of science.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269108 - 12/13/13 02:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make
and it's hardly a justification for people trying to legislate their religious beliefs on my life. It's not supposed to be the law of the land and so I can easier resist this bit of nonsense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269133 - 12/13/13 02:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I'm concerned. If I rob a store to give money to the church does that mean the church is to blame? I am to blame.
This was so irrational I couldn't finish your post before responding. 
How was I to take it up with the school when I was 6 years old. I didn't know until much much later that they were violating my rights.
How am I to blame if I was forced to pray in school. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Now I'll read the rest. 
I wasnt suggesting you were to blame.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269573 - 12/13/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: All I am saying is that having someone else force their beliefs on you is part of life on planet earth.
So is dying...
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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rcm61132110
Stranger

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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor]
#19270921 - 12/13/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Personally, all I think Jesus wanted us to do was love without condition. To serve without expectation of anything in return, and to do no harm. Of course most people(Christians included) cannot follow that perfectly- no one can. The point is we strive for that. It is better to try and fail, than to not try at all.
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19272677 - 12/13/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Which Christian Bible contains the book "Faith"??? Is that in the New New Testament?
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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rcm61132110
Stranger

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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: TheMaster]
#19274045 - 12/14/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No Bible contains the book of faith. Not even the Apophrica.
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19276003 - 12/14/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rcm61132110 said: No Bible contains the book of faith. Not even the Apophrica.
I was pretty sure it was a joke, but I'm not exactly a religion scholar.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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