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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
#19259818 - 12/11/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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He sees lots of things as good or bad right or wrong when it suits him. In the future I'll be pointing them out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19260061 - 12/11/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've lost track of which Christians on the board we're talking about in the recent posts here (lol), but I say we give them all some slack.
Provided they're not trying to convert the board to Christianity (I don't recall seeing that from anyone), they're just trying to come to grips with their spiritual impulses using a vocabulary and mythology that's comfortable for them.
And isn't that what we're all doing, after all?
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19260528 - 12/11/13 02:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do they need slack from me? I pretty much treat all the religions the same here. Plus if anything I'm pointing out things in the religion itself rather than the individual.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19260665 - 12/11/13 02:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said: I've lost track of which Christians on the board we're talking about in the recent posts here (lol), but I say we give them all some slack.
Provided they're not trying to convert the board to Christianity (I don't recall seeing that from anyone), they're just trying to come to grips with their spiritual impulses using a vocabulary and mythology that's comfortable for them.
And isn't that what we're all doing, after all?
I agree, considering this is what this forum is for. This isn't a debate forum, more of an open ideas and speculation forum.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260678 - 12/11/13 02:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No one debates here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19260734 - 12/11/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No bickering either.
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260830 - 12/11/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: This isn't a debate forum, more of an open ideas and speculation forum.
True, but the line between "open ideas and speculation" and "debate" -- when it comes to spiritual matters -- can be a bit fuzzy. I'm sure it drives the moderators of this forum crazy.
Free and open discussion, when it concerns spiritual stuff, is bound to lead to "debate." If it didn't, there would be no meaningful exchange of ideas. People would just speak their speak and no one would question or challenge them. B-O-R-I-N-G!
The key, in my opinion, is to remain civil and respectful.
Challenge ideas, but don't impugn the sincerity of the voicer of the ideas.
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: White Beard]
#19260975 - 12/11/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said: No bickering either. 
That's way too much to ask dude. Have you forgotten what planet you're on?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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rcm61132110
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265209 - 12/12/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: It's amazing how culturally ingrained christianity is in our western psyches. No matter how much we come to realize it is based in a form of self deceit and madness we cannot fully purge it from our minds.
But I give much kudos and credit to those that make the attempt. Still these threads on christianity, for or against, are a dime a dozen.
I'm curious- genuinely curious, as to how Christianity is based on self deceit? Now are you referring to Westernized Christianity? Or actual Christianity. There is a difference. You see, Christianity is not about following rules, it is not about going to church, it is not about giving disaster relief, it is not about any of those things. It is a way of life, and the model is supposed to be Christ. Now, here is the kicker- whether you believe Christ is divine or not, YOU CANNOT DENY HE WAS A GREAT TEACHER. He helped the poor, he did not condemn others, he taught to serve others- no matter what, he taught to always fogive, to always love, and to always turn the other cheek.
That being said, Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God. I am a Christian but I don't go to church- just simply try to live my life as Christ, loving, serving, compassionate, and selfless.
Im not here to get into a debate- here is my disclaimer. Spiritual Beliefs is a journey everyone must explore on their own. I just know I have had deep personal experiences on a year long spiritual retreat. No I never heard or saw things. But I did have a profound change of the pyshce, and several times I felt the presence of a greater being-- and during these moments I felt absolute peace and comfort. Just my experience- that's it- one persons experience.
But I will say this- if you don't believe someone elses beliefs- it is a sure sign of ignorance if you condemn or criticize their beliefs. Who cares what they believe? Who cares if is different than our beliefs? That's every man and womans right to believe what they want. I don't believe in Mormonism but I still show em love. Cause love is what matters
/endrantthatisntevenarant
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19265335 - 12/12/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God.
I almost agree with this statement. It's not really attempting to explain god but rather explaining a belief in a god. I see no convincing evidence that this god exists.
If you want to be kind, loving, good, you don't need a belief in anything other than those ideas to pursue that course of action. So then there must be other reasons.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265461 - 12/12/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The words themselves are all hollow. We will continue to fill in with our own projections. All our understandings/perceptions are from an internal set of experiences, so misunderstandings are going around all the time... even when we think we are understanding there may/probably is a degree of misunderstanding present. Point/past of views galore.
-------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."
"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
Edited by Sse (12/12/13 12:02 PM)
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rcm61132110
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19265605 - 12/12/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
Religion is a man made attempt at trying to explain God.
I almost agree with this statement. It's not really attempting to explain god but rather explaining a belief in a god. I see no convincing evidence that this god exists.
If you want to be kind, loving, good, you don't need a belief in anything other than those ideas to pursue that course of action. So then there must be other reasons. 
The most dangerous thing is not a weapon, but an idea. With an idea you can persuade the masses- and manipulate them. I know the Nazi's had spiritual beliefs- and they where very dangerous. In the same sense- Christians can be dangerous too, so can Muslims, so can Atheist, so can anyone.
On your second point- I HATE it when I see other Christians trying to force their beliefs on someone. People cannot MAKE someone convert to a belief structure, it has never worked and never will. The person must come to embrace what ever beliefs those are- on their own. I don't ever force my beliefs- because I had it done to me as a young boy, and I know how intrusice, and condescending it feels. But if someone asks me then sure I share my beliefs. Besides these Christians you speak of shoving stuff down peoples throats are really just full of pride- no man has the right to judge another man- for any reason- for their spiritual beliefs.
As for not being sure if Jesus existed- their are MANY sources outside of the Bible mentioning him- Certain Roman senators mention him, certain ilsamic prophets mention him, and there is ALOT of historical evidence he existed. However, just because he existed does NOT automatically mean he is devine. That is something that CAN NOT BE PROVEN, OR DISPROVEN.
Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
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all this beauty
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: rcm61132110]
#19266863 - 12/12/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rcm61132110 said: Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
It's quite a compatible thing to be Christian and to question traditional Christian dogma. Fundamentalist Christians will deny this, but they are caught up in the most insidious of spiritual / metaphysical traps, in my opinion.
I've suggested this in past posts, and I want to suggest it again.
Christian mythology -- the birth, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus -- is perhaps the most perfect expression of the spiritual / mystical impulse that has ever been imagined by humankind.
In my opinion, it's not literally true -- but it's the most near-perfect metaphorical reflection of intuitive spiritual insight that has ever been expressed by humankind.
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viktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19268687 - 12/12/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The problem is that nobody trusts any person who says they're a Christian. No matter how open-minded or sincere they claim to be, it's always been, in my experience, just a trick to empower the Christian political machine rather than help someone find spiritual truth, which could just as well be done outside of the Christian context.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19268882 - 12/13/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The Nazi's had beliefs too. Spiritual ones in their minds. Yet they were pretty dangerous. I've stated many times I have no problem with anyones beliefs until it tries to legislate my life choices. Which a lot of christians seem to be hell bent on doing.
I find that hard to believe. I have no interest in legislating your life choices and yet you are constantly criticizing me. Ever notice how on the internet its the atheists who are trying to covert everyone to their belief system? Also, just because some Christians have supported unwise laws in a misguided effort to reduce sin, does not mean that all Christians are like that or that that has anything to do with the core of what Christianity is about. What life choices are you even talking about? Drugs? I hope not because if you look at history you'll see that most drug laws were actually enacted by small branches of government without widespread public support. Furthermore, drugs and Christianity co-existed legally for over 1900 years, its only the last century most drugs became illegal. And plenty of people who arent particularly religious are very against drugs. It's really a matter of the general public being very ignorant about drugs and the government preferring to keep it that way than anything to do with religion. So what is it then? What exactly are Christians preventing you from doing and how are they any more guilty than any other person who supports a law you may not agree with? Are people not allowed to have different political views from you?
Quote:
As to denying whether Jesus was a great teacher that's really hard to say now isn't it? First I don't know if he actually existed, second I don't know if he existed what he actually taught or said since he never wrote a word of his beliefs.
How does that matter? Whether or not Jesus actually existed, the "Jesus" we know today is very real in the psyche of the world and this Jesus is an excellent teacher. If he was actually real that's just icing on the cake.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 12:42 AM)
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: all this beauty]
#19268908 - 12/13/13 12:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
rcm61132110 said: Can you prove the existence of God? Absolutely not, there is plenty of evidence(unexplained phenomena, peoples personal spiritual experiences- the creation of the universe (the law of physics states something cannot come from nothing) Now, do I believe the earth is 5000 years old? Hell no, I believe it is millions of years old- and I'm a Christian. Anyways im getting way off track lol! The point of my sharing this was not an attempt to prove anything, or be right, or wrong, or try to convince anyone of my beliefs- just simply debating I suppose- I enjoy intellectual conversation, especially when it comes to philosophy and metaphysical concepts.
It's quite a compatible thing to be Christian and to question traditional Christian dogma. Fundamentalist Christians will deny this, but they are caught up in the most insidious of spiritual / metaphysical traps, in my opinion.
I've suggested this in past posts, and I want to suggest it again.
Christian mythology -- the birth, suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus -- is perhaps the most perfect expression of the spiritual / mystical impulse that has ever been imagined by humankind.
In my opinion, it's not literally true -- but it's the most near-perfect metaphorical reflection of intuitive spiritual insight that has ever been expressed by humankind.
Yes yes, that is exactly how I feel. The whole Christian religion is an incredible outward reflection of the inner experience of spiritual awakening. It's remarkable really. But unfortunately its probably also the most misunderstood thing ever. ANd I am not talking about Christians here. Yes Christians can and often do misunderstand the Bible (myself included of course) but thats really not as important as it seems because anyone who really believes and tries to follow what the Bible says, even if they dont understand it perfectly, is on the path to awakening, whether or not they realize it yet.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 12:47 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19268946 - 12/13/13 12:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have no interest in legislating your life choices and yet you are constantly criticizing me.
I've never ever ever criticized you once ever at least intentionally. I have critiqued the beliefs you put forward here. There's a big difference and you ought to know that. 
Secondly you are not the sole representative of that religion so you hardly make a case for anything by putting yourself forth as an example. Not to mention the fact that saying something does not makes it true. Then you jump on drugs as if you know what I'm referring to and go off on a tirade in the wrong direction. Drugs never came to mind. I was thinking more along the lines of birth control or things like my sex life. Promoting religious beliefs in education etc. When I was a kid we had to pray in school in the morning. It certainly was not part of an education. I was being brainwashed and refusing brought down the wrath of the teacher on you one way or another. In this country at least many christians want to control how I live my life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269017 - 12/13/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Now that's just ridiculous. Enculteration IS brainwashing. When I was taking biology I was being brainwashed. That is what the educational system does, it brainwashes kids to think alike.
Your complaint is essentially "I dont like the culture I was raised in". I was raised in an atheistic household and yet there are tons of things I was taught that ended up being harmful to me. This has nothing to do with Christianity, this is being a human being.
No wonder you hate Christianity so much. Its your skapegoat.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:22 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
#19269031 - 12/13/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What you fail, likely by choice, to comprehend is that prayer was not part the of brainwashing I was supposed to be getting. It was a small group of religious people determining, illegally imo, what should go into my mind.
My complaint is I don't like the christian aspect of the culture that determines what my actions might be. There is supposed to be separation of church and state to protect my rights not to be religious.
I like much of what is in my culture so your scapegoat statement fails and you use it as a justification for your religion trying to influence my personal life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
#19269043 - 12/13/13 01:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There is no separation between culture and influencing our personal lives. If you want to complain that something illegal happening in your school, then I would take that up with the school and the people involved. It has nothing to do with Christianity as far as I'm concerned. If I rob a store to give money to the church does that mean the church is to blame? I am to blame.
But the large issue here is that that is what the world does, it tries to tell us how things are and what to believe and even how to conduct our personal lives. if we listen to the world, we can get into big trouble.
Luckily, within this brainwashing there are spiritual teachings that hint to us that if we look deep in our hearts, we can find our own truth, a truth that is transcendent and independent to the world and how it wants us to be. Christianity calls this truth God, or the Holy Spirit. So oddly enough, it is through bainwashing that we eventually can undo our brainwashing.
Religions are like a computer program that when you run it, it wipes the whole hard drive.
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