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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
    #19243807 - 12/08/13 06:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What about the souls the Catholic Church has saved?

Well if I thought there was a shred of truth to this I might agree. However I've seen no evidence whatsoever of that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19252012 - 12/09/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No, you are ignoring the horrendous actions of the Catholic church and if you are not ignoring them that is sadder still.





:popcorn: 



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19252229 - 12/09/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What about the souls the Catholic Church has saved?

Well if I thought there was a shred of truth to this I might agree. However I've seen no evidence whatsoever of that.




Ok but you have to understand that reality extends beyond merely what you can see. Your opinions are relative to you and your experiences. If you were someone who had grown spiritually as a result of their practice of Catholocism, your opinion would be completely different. What makes you think your perspective is more right or true than anyone elses?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19252260 - 12/09/13 08:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Did I say I thought mine are more true?  No I did not, but let me ask you this.  Do you ever judge others by their perspective?  For instance do you think the Nazi's idea to exterminate undesirables was no more or less right and true than anyone elses?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19252645 - 12/09/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think ideas and actions that don't stem from love and truth lead to suffering. Hence, having a pure heart, filled with love and truth is the most important thing.

It follows from this that the Catholic Church, as well as most other churches are an extremely positive thing for the world on an overall level. Anything that makes people question the idea that their might be something more important than their immediate material gain is extremely positive. So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth. Even if that truth is mixed with falsehood and heresy, it is still much better than the millions of completely pointless activities most people spend their lives consumed by. But that's looking at things from a spiritual perspective.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
    #19252676 - 12/09/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The Catholic Church is more corrupt than the US government.
I like this pope though :thumbup:

Humanity's salvation has been attempted through the Catholic Church for centuries and we are still fucked.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
    #19252871 - 12/09/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth.




Personally, I think a course in critical thinking would be much more effective and far less likely to cause all the problems the Church has contributed to.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
    #19253797 - 12/10/13 02:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?

Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).


Edited by Deviate (12/10/13 03:05 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
    #19254696 - 12/10/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
So churches, however imperfect their members and leaders might be, are spreading what I see as the ONLY cure for humanities ills, spiritual truth.




Personally, I think a course in critical thinking would be much more effective and far less likely to cause all the problems the Church has contributed to.  :mushroom2:





Of course this is true. But if you begin to think critically most of your little comforting fantasies pop like the little soap bubbles they are.  Not many have the guts for a life like that.  And really, who can blame them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19254796 - 12/10/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder of the rippling effect of initial perceived evils... I wonder how much freedom eventually stems from the confusion/manipulation and self created boxes people find themselves in; not just in the strict devotee but in everyone around them and further on. I wonder if as a whole,in the grand scheme if it isn't all propelling us towards light/freedom. Perhaps perceived evils are the most influential and most awakening?

Extreme mental slavery = aggressive creation of free/self-insightful beings?


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/10/13 10:57 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
    #19254856 - 12/10/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Grand scheme? :lol:  You mean grand fairy tale.  If there is a god there should be no ignorance in man to overcome unless that god is malevolent of course.  Really, do you actually entertain such thoughts seriously?  Rational thinking will quickly put an end to such nonsense. 

It never ceases to amaze me that most of humanity is not rational in their emotional psychology.    And yet we dominate the planet for the time being.  :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19255146 - 12/10/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

just a miss understanding on your part

the grand scheme, in the grand picture. Behind the scene. The effects that happen that we don't necessarily perceive initially or ever.


Like how the one is in the all and the all is in the one

horrendous acts/perceived evils/negatives may be the leading influence in freeing minds. The bigger the construct or negative effect the more likely a place for self-insight and self-release to manifest? If not in the constructed being then perhaps in the onlookers or those in the ripples/causing ripples?(like us :smile: )

the grand scheme to me is how the littlest thing can cause such a huge difference in the make up and lay out of the world.... I often wonder about all the little insects I've bred and set loose upon the world via my garden and experiments... throughout my life its had to have equaled millions of little creatures due to my existence... I wonder if those little creatures actually mean life and death around the globe.... not necessarily the life and death of the insects but even of the large creatures/humans. I wonder if anyone or anything would be where it is if it weren't for where I am and for where I've been(or even just from the insects I've influenced alone)... this goes for everything and anything. If you weren't exactly where you were, then I wouldn't be where I am?

the littlest grain of sand to the largest galaxy the furthest away... everything is exactly where it is because everything else is exactly where it is...seems likely unless some benevolent/malevolent being is out there moving thing around hehe... I can't rule it out.


Edited by Sse (12/10/13 12:47 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
    #19255285 - 12/10/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I'm glad that since I misunderstand that you're here to understand what I'm misunderstanding. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSse
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19255326 - 12/10/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hehe well you made it easy enough... though I may never completely understand your misunderstanding and you may never completely understand my understandings/understanding of your misunderstanding which could be misunderstood still :grin:

words are hollow :eek:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/10/13 01:01 PM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
    #19255503 - 12/10/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?




You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills.  :confused:

Quote:

Deviate said:
Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).




The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it.  :lol:  The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking.  We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.

At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others.  In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must.  It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Sse]
    #19255840 - 12/10/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sse said:
hehe well you made it easy enough... though I may never completely understand your misunderstanding and you may never completely understand my understandings/understanding of your misunderstanding which could be misunderstood still :grin:

words are hollow :eek:





Especially when you use them. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: deCypher]
    #19255846 - 12/10/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
What is the point in comparing critical thinking to spiritual practice? Each has their place. I mean that is like saying, "I think it would be more effective to teach kids about diet than exercise". That may or may not be true, but even if it is true what difference does that make? Why not teach about both diet AND exercise?




You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills.  :confused:

Quote:

Deviate said:
Spiritual practice can lead to the opening of a whole different realm of experience that the intellect cannot access. Our society is dominated by the plague of excessive thinking and spiritual practice is the only remedy (because the definition of spiritual practices is anything that erodes this process of excessive thinking).




The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it.  :lol:  The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking.  We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.

At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others.  In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must.  It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.





nice:thumbup:  It's lack of critical thinking that makes our world what it is today.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Icelander]
    #19258312 - 12/11/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It never ceases to amaze me that most of humanity is not rational in their emotional psychology.    And yet we dominate the planet for the time being.  :satansmoking:




But the humans that are rational dominate the irrational ones. Or at least keep them under some degree of control most of the time.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: viktor]
    #19258931 - 12/11/13 06:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I hardly agree with such a blanket statement.  To be truly rational is to see the big picture.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: The best argument for Christianity I've ever heard [Re: Deviate]
    #19259749 - 12/11/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

"If you were not absolute perfection, God would have made you different, and since He made the others different and not you, you must be absolute perfection."




:facepalm:

This is hardly an argument and it is not in any way a good one "for christianity"

Quote:

Deviate said:
No, I want the what is really going on Paradigm. Icelander and many others who post here are stuck in the good or bad paradigm.




:imspecial:

Quote:

Deviate said:
Wisdom does not see things as good or bad, things simply are and then our thinking makes them either good or bad.

Christianity just is. Or it is what you make of it. Some people follow the Christian path to awakening. That is beautiful. Awakening is beautiful and all paths that lead to awakening are also beautiful. But most people who are asleep do not see this. They are stuck on labeling things good or bad, this or that, courageous or cowardly, endless labeling.




Oh yes, please give us more of your wisdom, your uttermost refined level of sophistry :lol:

The good old "Things aren't the way you think, because you label things. Things simply are [the way I label them]" technique. Same as saying "I am not a criminal for having broken the law. I am simply me." A crude attempt to cover a truth with another, more general indisputable truth, thus creating the illusion of being indisputably right on a subject.

A nice little sophistic stunt, however, you're wrong. "Christianity just is" my ass. Christianity is a great deal of many things and the actions of this faith as a whole has ensured that it is nowhere near such a sublime state as simply being :shrug:

It's easy to to cry that others are just labelling things and that you're so above that whilst using a whole array of labels of your own :teabird: in fact, many have to start using labels to answer your positive-label ridden opinion




Quote:

deCypher said:
You just said that spiritual practice was the ONLY cure for humanities' ills.  :confused:




wouldn't be the first time Deviate has contradicted himself :grin:

Quote:


And thus Deviate said onto the Shroomery:

My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3




but from a discussion we had, he said it was cool since all spiritual scriptures do it :cool:


Quote:

deCypher said:
The problem isn't that there's too much thinking going on; indeed far from it.  :lol:  The problem, instead, is that there's too much negative thinking going on and too little positive thinking.  We are preoccupied with detrimental emotions like worry, regret, guilt, anxiety, and fear when we should be focused on replacing this with more positive thoughts of hope, joy, happiness, and acceptance.

At any rate what you're saying might be correct if there was only one true form of working spiritual practice--however many working forms there might be, they are needles in the proverbial haystack of superstitious charlatans, fraudulent miracle workers, and people espousing belief in invisible deities in order to exercise power and control over others.  In order to properly discern WHICH spiritual practice ought to be adopted, critical thinking is a must.  It is the foundation of any healthy activity of the mind, body or soul and its lack is sorely evident in the world around us, IMO.





:thumbup: right on

I truly have nothing against spirituality, but I dislike those as described by deCypher. In my own humble opinion; christianity, as an organised religion falls into that haystack categrory :shrug: the bare teachings of christianity are what they are. If people want to get jiggy with heaven and hell, guilt and sin and that works for them; fine. But please, leave other-minded people out of it. It is the only reason people are so butthurt over christianity anyway. Because of their insistent and intrusive nagging, raping and reprogramming of independent minds. 

And the OP is no valid or good argument for such a thing. Simple as that :shrug:


Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/11/13 12:09 PM)


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