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NotTheDevil
Transhuman


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 5,436
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#19240540 - 12/07/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said: I thought that the 'beyond all doubt' part would preempt any attempt to explain it off as faith. One can draw rational conclusions from subjective information, without the need to rely on faith--other than, perhaps, faith that the mind is indeed a rational tool.
If you woke up one day and something identified itself as 'God' to you, and then proceeded to verify this to you--perhaps by performing miracles on the spot, or whatever your mind would need to soothe it's doubt--would it not then be rational to believe in this 'God'? I'm not commenting on the liklihood of this happening, but RP requested a rational reason to believe in a deity.
Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.
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Rational reasons to be religious....?
N/A
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19240548 - 12/07/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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NotTheDevil said: Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.
but just say that the 'being' you meet is actually your own self in its cosmic aspect, and you can very much tell how already connected it is to your own consciousness. Then you would really have no doubt because every single question the mind could have about the nature of God becomes more or less answered.
The other two alternatives you list could very well lead to doubts...
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
#19240590 - 12/07/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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i love how people hear about codes found in shit, and "we could all be in a simulation" and whatnot and "it could just be a technologically advanced trick!" but it's really really so hard to believe that there is an "end-all be-all"
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19240601 - 12/07/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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right it's like if reality isn't somehow abstracted then it can't make any 'sense'
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19240603 - 12/07/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: If you woke up one day and something identified itself as 'God' to you, and then proceeded to verify this to you--perhaps by performing miracles on the spot, or whatever your mind would need to soothe it's doubt--would it not then be rational to believe in this 'God'? I'm not commenting on the liklihood of this happening, but RP requested a rational reason to believe in a deity.
Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.
Once again, ANY DOUBT YOU HAVE is able to be convincingly laid to rest--including the doubt that it is merely a technologically advanced being.
What differentiates a deity from a powerful supernatural entity or technologically advanced being? If a difference exists, than a hypothetical point exists where this being claiming to be 'God' would not longer qualify as a supernatural or technological phenomenon. If nothing differentiates a deity from a powerful supernatural entity or technologically advanced being, than would it not be proper to also consider them to be deities?
Once all possible doubt has been eliminated, you have two possible conclusions to draw: (1) I am insane and my mind is not a rational tool, or (2) I a sane and my mind is a rational tool, and therefore I must conclude that 'God' exists.
Your proposition of an 'Evil Demon' situation doesn't only remove the rationality for believing in God, or being religious--it removes the rationality for believing in anything revealed to us through our senses.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
#19240611 - 12/07/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
g00ru said: right it's like if reality isn't somehow abstracted then it can't make any 'sense'
we need a end all be all Ipod.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19240656 - 12/07/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You can't just say "I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts" and declare that rationale.
How many people say that about Jesus Christ? Or UFOs? Or the New York Mets?
Your mind's shitty interpretation of the things around you don't make them true, especially in the total absence of empirical evidence.
If that were the case, I could declare birds to be aliens and the rest of the world would just have to deal with it because of my delusional perception.
No.
Millenia of scientific consensus > that time you did acid and discovered the truth.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240668 - 12/07/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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whats odd about your post to me is that it actually is the situation that if you declare birds to be aliens everybody else has to deal with it. that says a lot about how reality is collectively manifested.
just like we have to deal with your characterization of certain mental interpretations as 'shitty'
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240677 - 12/07/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the very definition of God seems to perplex you.
IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT
THE UNKNOWN
people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
#19240690 - 12/07/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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g00ru said: whats odd about your post to me is that it actually is the situation that if you declare birds to be aliens everybody else has to deal with it. that says a lot about how reality is collectively manifested.
just like we have to deal with your characterization of certain mental interpretations as 'shitty'
My point is he's claiming his belief is based in reason, it is not.
If you want to make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. You don't get to say "well in my personal experience it's a fact" and scurry away from the argument.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240699 - 12/07/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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nah there's no burden of proof at all, you can just share what you believe.
after all, the truth doesn't need us to prove it to be true, it already is.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19240701 - 12/07/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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akira_akuma said: the very definition of God seems to perplex you.
IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT
THE UNKNOWN
people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?
So the definition of God is now "the unknown?"
God: an ever receding vestige of scientific ignorance.
Really makin a case here....
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ModestMouse
IM WALKIN ON SUNSHINE



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240708 - 12/07/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
#19240710 - 12/07/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
g00ru said: nah there's no burden of proof at all, you can just share what you believe.
after all, the truth doesn't need us to prove it to be true, it already is.
Sure, you can believe whatever the fuck you want, but it's not rational. And that's what this thread is about.
I don't understand what the second part has to do with beliefs, if anything you just made two conflicting arguments...
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240735 - 12/07/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the fact that there is a truth to reality will make it so that sooner or later your language will have to be in accordance with that.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240738 - 12/07/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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"I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts"
This isn't what I'm saying though. Obviously I can't go into detail on the exact rational process, because I not claiming to have had the experience myself. Just because I don't have proof for Gods existence doesn't mean I am unable to make that claim that "if I had proof of Gods existence, it would be rational to believe in God".
Imagine, for yourself, what it would require to verify the existence of 'God' for you. Now, imagine that you had this verification. How is it not rational to then go on to believe in the existence of God?
To run with your example, if a bird were to reveal itself as an alien to you--were to take you up in a spaceship capable of intergalactic travel--brought you to an alien planet--introduced you to other alien-birds--and then brought you back home--in other words, removed all possible doubt to the contrary--would it not be rational to then believe that birds are aliens? It's either that or coming to the conclusion that you are insane and cannot trust anything revealed by your senses--either way, it is still a different situation than merely deciding out of the blue that 'birds are aliens'.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240741 - 12/07/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: the very definition of God seems to perplex you.
IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT
THE UNKNOWN
people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?
So the definition of God is now "the unknown?"
God: an ever receding vestige of scientific ignorance.
Really makin a case here....
i'm not "making a case", i'm explaining to you that you are just as bad as all the preachers telling people they're going to hell.
you can't FATHOM that maybe God isn't all that fucking important, and anyone with a fucking brain (even clergymen) can see that themselves... which makes me question your judgement.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#19240774 - 12/07/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said: "I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts"
This isn't what I'm saying though. Obviously I can't go into detail on the exact rational process, because I not claiming to have had the experience myself. Just because I don't have proof for Gods existence doesn't mean I am unable to make that claim that "if I had proof of Gods existence, it would be rational to believe in God".
Imagine, for yourself, what it would require to verify the existence of 'God' for you. Now, imagine that you had this verification. How is it not rational to then go on to believe in the existence of God?
To run with your example, if a bird were to reveal itself as an alien to you--were to take you up in a spaceship capable of intergalactic travel--brought you to an alien planet--introduced you to other alien-birds--and then brought you back home--in other words, removed all possible doubt to the contrary--would it not be rational to then believe that birds are aliens? It's either that or coming to the conclusion that you are insane and cannot trust anything revealed by your senses--either way, it is still a different situation than merely deciding out of the blue that 'birds are aliens'.
Verification in almost all cases is peer reviewed, so a single experience wouldnt convince anyone other than myself thanks to the dozens of psychological biases in play.
As far as the bird, yeah sure, it'd be mind blowing, but I'd still probably write it off as a crazy dream/hallucination if there were no tangible evidence. Is that what God did to you and that's why you believe?
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240796 - 12/07/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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God's really just changed over the years... into Science.
can you people stop pontificating now?
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,462
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19240816 - 12/07/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Verification in almost all cases is peer reviewed, so a single experience wouldnt convince anyone other than myself thanks to the dozens of psychological biases in play.
Who said anything about trying to prove it to others? My belief in a deity is not dependent on mass consensus. In fact, I believe that knowledge of such can only be experienced subjectively--empirical facts are a product of the material world, so unless 'God' is composed of matter/energy (a matter up for debate), there should be no expectation of empirical date. Regardless, lack of empirical data does not render the subjective data valueless.
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Is that what God did to you and that's why you believe?
No need to make this personal. I'm not claiming this as my own personal experience--I don't have an unquestioning faith in any deity, nor do I believe myself to have rational reasoning for belief--but I have an open enough mind to contemplate things outside of my own experience.
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