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OnlineKickleM
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monotheism? where?
    #19237768 - 12/06/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I spent a little bit of time laying in bed the other night pondering the difference between a mono-theistic religion and a polytheistic one. I couldn't really sort it out but maybe I'm missing something.

Polytheists have lots of deities, right? Many gods. Like the Greeks. There was Apollo, and Aphordite, and Athena, and Poseidon and... But Zeus was the top dog. Zeus made the rules that the other Gods had to play by. Zeus could rain on any other Gods parade if he wanted. So really is it polytheistic if the other Gods are really demi-gods in relation to Zeus? Isn't that like God and his angels? Like Saint Peter is up there with God guarding the gate and doing his thing. Well, so was Hades in his role of guarding his afterlife realm too. What's the difference if they both have to answer to a higher power?

So then the next element comes in. Some Gods become more important in different areas of Greece and are the objects of reverence in differing degrees. Different areas of Greece had their own specific God they prayed to, built altars to, etc. That's pretty polytheistic, right?

But what about Patron saints in Christianity? A church dedicated to and named after so and so. What about the Pope and all his monuments? Depending on denomination there will be a special blend of particular favorites. And it is/was divided by area in many ways. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. A major difference is in these sub-God worships. What sort of rituals and to whom those rituals are aimed at. So is this any different than the Greeks? Would a historian in the future be able to tell?

How about the all-to-confusing fact that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all declare one God and yet are completely different because of these sub-God figures like Jesus and Mohammed?

Anyways, either I don't see monotheism or I don't see polytheism. Can someone clear this up?


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OfflineOld Pokey
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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19237855 - 12/06/13 06:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Can someone clear this up?

I doubt it will ever be "cleared up".  Some would say words like "ineffability".


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19237905 - 12/06/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I see where your confusion is coming from, and as a religious scholar I'll try to help sort some things out as best I can!

Concerning the various Saints in Christianity & monotheism... these people are not worshipped as Gods. They were merely human beings, just like the followers of the religion, who should be looked to as a model for how to be a good Christian. If they are 'worshipped,' it is important to note that they are being prayed to with the knowledge that since they are anointed ones, they are 'closer' to God, and therefore the prayer is delivered through their grace.

On the differences between the 3 Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity, & Islam) - some followers of these religions believe they are all worshipping the same God, and others believe there is a difference between God in Judaism & Allah in Islam. As far as the 'sub-god' figures go: Mohammad is not a God, or sub-god. He is viewed as the final prophet of "true religion." Mohammad's purpose was to receive God's new revelations which came to fruition after the events described in the New Testament.

Jesus, on the other hand is a different story. Jews and Muslims look at Jesus as merely another prophet, where Christians look at Jesus as the incarnation of God. The language that is commonly used to describe Jesus (the son) is confusing, but they are supposed to be the same person...along with the 'holy ghost'. This trinity aspect of Christianity, I think, is the really confusing thing about their monotheism. IME most Christians don't like to talk about it because they don't understand it either.

I'm not too keen on Greek mythology, as it's not generally discussed as a part of religious studies at my institution. Hinduism is though, which I think fits the bill for some of the questions you are asking.

In Hinduism, there is polytheism and monotheism. As we all know there are millions of Hindu gods/demi-gods, and the one god who sits above them all, Brahmin. It is the belief of some Hindus that the other gods are just different manifestations of Brahmin, making their belief monotheistic. On the other hand, some followers believe that they are all separate beings. I don't think that this applies to Zeus (the lower gods being different manifestations), but it is something to think about. I would say that Greek mythology is polytheistic... just because the other gods sit on a lower throne than Zeus, doesn't mean that they aren't worshipped as separate gods.

Shoot back if you want, I'll be here at work for another hour and a half :cookiemonster:


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19237972 - 12/06/13 06:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The "difference" between monotheism and polytheism is the difference between one potato chip and a bag of potato chips.

Either way, it's potato chips.

The Jews, the Western architects of monotheism, were on to something in that they sensed the undivided nature of reality.  They sought to express this theologically and came up with the concept of "one God." 

But if you believe in the idea of a god who is separate and "other" than you, I don't see the difference, to tell ya the truth, between believing in one "separate and other" god or five "separate and other" gods.

I'm sure, however, that the monotheists and the polytheists see a big difference, however.  :wink:


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19238333 - 12/06/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:
I see where your confusion is coming from, and as a religious scholar I'll try to help sort some things out as best I can!

Concerning the various Saints in Christianity & monotheism... these people are not worshipped as Gods. They were merely human beings, just like the followers of the religion, who should be looked to as a model for how to be a good Christian. If they are 'worshipped,' it is important to note that they are being prayed to with the knowledge that since they are anointed ones, they are 'closer' to God, and therefore the prayer is delivered through their grace.

On the differences between the 3 Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianity, & Islam) - some followers of these religions believe they are all worshipping the same God, and others believe there is a difference between God in Judaism & Allah in Islam. As far as the 'sub-god' figures go: Mohammad is not a God, or sub-god. He is viewed as the final prophet of "true religion." Mohammad's purpose was to receive God's new revelations which came to fruition after the events described in the New Testament.

Jesus, on the other hand is a different story. Jews and Muslims look at Jesus as merely another prophet, where Christians look at Jesus as the incarnation of God. The language that is commonly used to describe Jesus (the son) is confusing, but they are supposed to be the same person...along with the 'holy ghost'. This trinity aspect of Christianity, I think, is the really confusing thing about their monotheism. IME most Christians don't like to talk about it because they don't understand it either.

I'm not too keen on Greek mythology, as it's not generally discussed as a part of religious studies at my institution. Hinduism is though, which I think fits the bill for some of the questions you are asking.

In Hinduism, there is polytheism and monotheism. As we all know there are millions of Hindu gods/demi-gods, and the one god who sits above them all, Brahmin. It is the belief of some Hindus that the other gods are just different manifestations of Brahmin, making their belief monotheistic. On the other hand, some followers believe that they are all separate beings. I don't think that this applies to Zeus (the lower gods being different manifestations), but it is something to think about. I would say that Greek mythology is polytheistic... just because the other gods sit on a lower throne than Zeus, doesn't mean that they aren't worshipped as separate gods.

Shoot back if you want, I'll be here at work for another hour and a half :cookiemonster:




Seems like the same thing in practice. The saints are not human because they are not alive. They are symbolic representations of specific qualities. Same as a polytheistic god, no? I don't really see any difference in intent or in the purpose behind such worship.

If it looks the same in practice, why split monotheism/polytheism? Maybe that's my real question.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19238370 - 12/06/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I just speak from 2nd hand knowledge, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer much furthur here.

Personally, I don't subscribe to any religious beliefs or philosophies, so I try to have an unbiased approach in learning about them. IMO all we have is our own personal experience of spirituality and that's why I don't agree with following someone else's religion, no matter how long it has been around. It is interesting learning about them and connecting the dots to your own personal experience though. 

Hope someone else can drop in to answer your questions though :cookiemonster:


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19238428 - 12/06/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Right on :peace:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19238790 - 12/06/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would add that it is not Muhammed, but the written Qurán that is equivalent to Christ, or the Logos. Similarly in Judaism, it is the Torah that holds a central place as the 'incarnate' Logos [Word] of God.

The philosophers of the ancient world understood a notion of unity. Polytheism was something of popular religion but it was also important to the state religion. Several of the gods and goddesses of Greek antiquity were adapted by the Romans. Whereas Apollo, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto became synonymous names to our solar system's major bodies in the Latin, Zeus in Greek means God, just as Deus is God in Latin. Moderns tend to imagine the artistic personifications, but miss the philosophical/ontological meanings behind the names. Today we still retain many of the Greek names for the moons of these planets, but in ancient times, it can be surmised that each deity, not just those on Olympus, but demigods like Dionysus (god of Nysus) and Heracles (Hercules). Demigods were born of a god and a mortal woman. The Jesus myth partakes of this hellenistic idea. The satyr Pan, had different levels of meaning. Originally, he was an ipthyphallic deity symbolizing fertility. He is the son of Hermes and a female goat-herder. In Greek, Pan means 'All,' and is also representative of Nature in its entirety, while Zeus, for example, symbolized the Will behind all of the gods. There were those who were rebellious, like Hades who was relegated to the underworld, just as Satan was in the Christian myths. There was Persephone who was Hades' prisoner, for 1/3 of the year whom he abducted and raped. She embodies death and resurrection themes. Persephone's mother Demeter (literally, The Mother), is the Mater-Matter-Matrix of Life. The polytheistic idea is more like the various visible colors being split prismatically from white light. God divides up into masculine and feminine aspects in polytheism. In Gnostic religion, these male-female pairs of various number are called syzygies.

I have known Muslims who truly believed that Christianity was polytheistic because of the trinitarian doctrine. Christianity's veneration of saints draws on the same primitive need to maintain a cult of personality that the ancients had. It is like ancestor worship, especially in Asian cultures. Jungian analyst Jean Shinoda-Bolen described the various Greek gods and goddesses in terms of the archetypes that still populate the Collective Unconscious. Each of us has varying degree of each of these universal types in us and the proportions of these universal make for each of our individualities. Just as today, the gods of antiquity were projections of aspects of our psyches onto the heavens. I have posted on this elsewhere, but the gods and goddesses ARE out psyche, even now. They are transcendental, universal, archetypal and hence changeless tendencies of the psyche that have been personified, but mythology can serve us well once we understand that it is a profound an ancient form of psychology.


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19239110 - 12/06/13 11:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Very nice response Markos. I especially liked the analogy of polytheism as [the] light filtering through a prism to create a multitude of colors :thumbup:

It would seem to me that such filtering is what I see regardless of the religious story and what was leading to the disorientation. I know there are those amongst Christianity and otherwise which work on getting back to the source of such fragmentation but it isn't what appears front and center.  It strikes me as a minority interest now as it was in the ancient world.


Do you know of any reason why the Greeks viewed Poseidon, Hades, and Zeus as near equals until Zeus won out by chance?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19240825 - 12/07/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not familiar with the competition of gods that you mention, but Hesiod in his Theogony, says that Zeus assigned the various roles of the gods. In other mythologies there seems an essential duality needs to be established to short-circuit an infinite regression ("It's turtles all the way down"). There appears to be mated couples from which other deities emerge on the one hand, or, if co-eternal deities are the basis, one, or a mated pair assume the throne of leadership (e.g., Zeus & Hera). I think from a Jungian perspective, the psyche has a central organizing factor, the Self, depicted as the center of the mandalas in Hindu and Buddhist cultures, and as enthroned king & queen in the West. Some myths have the feminine element as sky and the masculine as earth, but the reverse is more common, ostensibly because the masculine creative component (semen, sperm) is virtually invisible compared to the menstrual blood which ancients believed developed into a newborn child. Hence, the feminine was associated with growth, fecundity, appearances, cycles (menstrual and lunar). Also, by association to cycles, the moon is usually feminine and the constant sun masculine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sky_deities

Zeus was born of the Titans, Kronos & Rhea who in turn, were born of the primal sky and earth deities, Ouranos and Gaia. These deities are usually not depicted anthropomorphically, but their aspect of 'first' in the sense of primal becomes associated in the Golden Age of Greece to the 'first two' deities, Zeus & Hera, although, while Zeus still retains a sky-god aspect, Hera is not the earth-goddess which is usually the Olympian Demeter (The Mother) and to a lesser extent, her daughter Persephone (The Kore). Hera becomes the wife or consort of the King of the Gods.The Olympians were, anthropomorphic projections of Greek society, but as I said earlier, each god and goddess, as beautifully elaborated by Dr. Jean Shinoda-Bolen in her books Gods in Everyman and Goddessses in Everywoman, are all aspects, in Greek garb, of the basic archetypes by which our individuality is constructed.

For example, according to the descriptions of the deities, I have very little Zeus in my personality. I am not a father, a philanderer, a producer of bastard children. Nor do I attempt to rule over others, etc. I do have quite a bit of esoteric Hermes, and rational Apollo, and a fair amount of Hephaestus (the 'smith'). Clearly, there are strong Dionysian elements in me. I have a youthful appearance. I could be seen as a youth, drunk, with a demijohn shaped jug of Spañada® wine on a Saturday afternoon (Saturnalia!), sliding down a leaf-strewn hill in a nature preserve in NJ. :lol: I am an ecstatic tripper. I do not embody much of Ares. I have had some martial (Mars) arts training, but I never went in for fighting, soldiering, etc. All snowflakes are made with the same water molecules, but look at the varieties! Same with the universal archetypes in different measures.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19242359 - 12/07/13 07:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Iliad 15.187-193

The three Gods draw lots to see who lands where. And a little back and forth about respect for mutual power. Poseidon acknowledges Zeus as very powerful and wants no interference from him as recognition of his own power.


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19242681 - 12/07/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:
In Hinduism, there is polytheism and monotheism. As we all know there are millions of Hindu gods/demi-gods, and the one god who sits above them all, Brahmin. It is the belief of some Hindus that the other gods are just different manifestations of Brahmin, making their belief monotheistic. On the other hand, some followers believe that they are all separate beings.




Isn't it Krishna that's supposed to be the one true God/creator, that created Brahman?  At least that's what it says in the Bhagavad-Gita.  All the other Gods are considered Demigods and are below Krishna.  Worship of them is ok, for the "less intelligent", but the best path "back to Godhead" is considered to be direct worship of Krishna, the ONE creator.  So it seems pretty monotheistic to me, really.  Of course there's like 1,000,000 vedic texts, many of which contradict each other, and it probably also depends on whose translation of the Gita you read.

I mean, Hinduism can't even really be considered a religion, being comprised of so many sects and sub-sects, with regional variations.  Some follow Shiva, some follow Vishnu, some worship the abstract/impersonal Brahman, and some the personal form of Krishna, saying he created Brahman.  I guess it just depends on who you ask :lol:


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: Kickle]
    #19242709 - 12/07/13 09:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Iliad 15.187-193

The three Gods draw lots to see who lands where. And a little back and forth about respect for mutual power. Poseidon acknowledges Zeus as very powerful and wants no interference from him as recognition of his own power.




Acha!


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19243657 - 12/08/13 04:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

you are looking at deities regarding the subjective mean of else, so others they need to be worshipped like gods

it shows your mind ways being of lies

powerful entities are what they force beings to be their possessions of things existence, when existence is freedom realities of  free beings
when free beings are true things realities so infinite freedom existence fact

it shows how powers is to evil fact, so your jesus has powers on Christians others prophets has less powers but still have some on people life... gods in greek civilization also were pointed for the powers they have to possess existing free facts as inferior things for powers life

like existing from what you are able to do or to achieve objectively, it becomes easy with powers

I guess from ever it is known how life is a lie and how truth is abused

that is why the more evil one could be the more he would be associated with being god


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: absols]
    #19245372 - 12/08/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I will  start.... quoting a statement that I do not remember the source: “The worship of any single deity tends to become monotheism, at least in the minds of his followers”. The mind of any human being tends to be overwhelmed by the encounter with any deity ... and not only from that... In my opinion, our minds are often overwhelmed ...

I have heard various sources stating the thesis "Divinity = Archetypes". It make sense only if u  belive in the thesis of Jung...In my opinion, Jung was a coherent Christian (or at least -he had an extensive, well-structured Christian background) and his thesis should be taken more as hypothesis  rather than absolute truth, especially when it comes to examining “things”  that Jung did not believe (cause of his faith, his “habits of thought”, etc. ) to have an independent existence from humans....

There is a point beyond which... it becomes a matter of faith to establish the subjectivity or objectivity of anything.

In my personal opinion, between monotheism and polytheist (generally) there is more than the number of the gods that u worship. In  monotheism there is one true way, one true authority (often: one book). One truth. And worst : one reality.

In polytheism (or at least: in some polytheist faiths) there is the space for different truths, conflicting authorities ....In the Greek polytheism, for example  the truth of the Homeric Hymns it's at the same level of the truth of the Orphic Hymns....but this 2 books tell 2 different stories...Homer and Hesiod... were, on various points, in contradiction with one another...  Again, it's a matter of faith...But I think.... Freud was right when he argued that the principle of non-contradiction dwell in the conscious part of our mind ... And I think that this principle has no objectivity..It is an unnecessary hypothesis to belive  that it regulates the universe.... It work for us, we work whit it, we cannot work without it, but (again, in my opinion) it's a mistake to believe it as part of the "structure of the universe"...


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: OpenQwerty]
    #19248708 - 12/09/13 03:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

there is no mind when the perspective is not true or not on something right .. then your minds is all free inventions that must be based necessarily on the concept of gains constancy ..

this is also what is abused for powers to fool everyone more ... as if there is a kind of positive logics behind negative behaviors and reactions, or as if inferiority is right, so like truth is inferior to conscious freedom wills .. that is why they say, what is less is more, which is of course an evil invention ... what is less is less absolutely always and what is more is more also absolutely always constant

that is why also freedom individualities is possible existence realities, because objective would be in truth facts obvious then ... when any mean is free out of everything 


Edited by absols (12/09/13 07:24 AM)


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Re: monotheism? where? [Re: absols]
    #19263204 - 12/11/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I spent a little bit of time laying in bed the other night pondering the difference between a mono-theistic religion and a polytheistic one. I couldn't really sort it out but maybe I'm missing something.

Polytheists have lots of deities, right? Many gods. Like the Greeks. There was Apollo, and Aphordite, and Athena, and Poseidon and... But Zeus was the top dog. Zeus made the rules that the other Gods had to play by. Zeus could rain on any other Gods parade if he wanted. So really is it polytheistic if the other Gods are really demi-gods in relation to Zeus? Isn't that like God and his angels? Like Saint Peter is up there with God guarding the gate and doing his thing. Well, so was Hades in his role of guarding his afterlife realm too. What's the difference if they both have to answer to a higher power?

So then the next element comes in. Some Gods become more important in different areas of Greece and are the objects of reverence in differing degrees. Different areas of Greece had their own specific God they prayed to, built altars to, etc. That's pretty polytheistic, right?

But what about Patron saints in Christianity? A church dedicated to and named after so and so. What about the Pope and all his monuments? Depending on denomination there will be a special blend of particular favorites. And it is/was divided by area in many ways. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc. A major difference is in these sub-God worships. What sort of rituals and to whom those rituals are aimed at. So is this any different than the Greeks? Would a historian in the future be able to tell?

How about the all-to-confusing fact that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all declare one God and yet are completely different because of these sub-God figures like Jesus and Mohammed?

Anyways, either I don't see monotheism or I don't see polytheism. Can someone clear this up?




There is a radical difference between monotheism and poly or paganism. In the monotheistic religions God is viewed as being formless. Not a physical form such as any animal human saint-man angel anything that is confined in a physical form.

In all major religions they seem to acknowledge the existence of "higher" beings than humans, living in a different "realm" than ours. Hinduism/buddhism have devas, Islam and Christianity has Angels. The Greeks had the Gods of Olympus. There are many similarities between the the way these beings are described. Perhaps they are calling the same beings by different names and perceiving them differently. Or maybe they don't exist. Anyway in none of the major monotheistic religions are they considered to be God, but servants of God. God has nothing outside of God and has no comparison. All the being of creation (including angels) are within the one true God. Since God is infinite no finite "thing" can be excluded from God's existence.

God must be understood as reality itself, the highest reality and truth and the ONE eternal existence. Not something you can visualize and understand with your mind but a higher state of being which you have faith exists.


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* atheism is an ugly thing
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Sophistic Radiance 9,159 121 06/27/11 04:32 AM
by Poid

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