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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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The Divided Quantum
#19237480 - 12/06/13 05:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have for some time been interested in what comes after quantum theory -- what is beyond it -- and how this relates to the human nervous system. Pilot Wave theory and David Bohm's "Implicate Order" are of crucial importance, and I have found that many of the ideas resulting from this exploration have strong parallels to Leary and Wilson's "Eight Circuit Model of Consciousness." I wanted to start a discussion here, with interested parties, and get some general impressions of different individuals' experiences pertaining to this topic, from which I hope to generate fruitful discussions. Admittedly, it is a broad topic, and I don't really know where to begin, so I look forward to some volunteering of ideas people have about these subjects with which we can construct an interesting and stimulating thread.
I have recently created a rather extensive website on this theme: The Divided Quantum
where people might find some inspiration. I trust these ideas are as interesting to many of the people here at the forum as they are to me, and would appreciate feedback.
-Jimmy45122
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Mr Person



Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: inner circle of fault
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I like your website. It's very scattered and stream of consciousness (as you admit), but there are some interesting ideas presented. I think you would have better luck striking up discussion by narrowing your focus to one or two specific concepts per thread though. You could have stuff to talk about for years if you posted your blurbs as separate thread topics.
Also I would be prepared to defend your arguments as the dominant voices in this forum do tend to be skeptical. Declarations like, "The ground of existence is not matter and energy. The ground of existence is consciousness, and the seat of this consciousness is the soul" will be dismantled quickly. If preaching to the choir is more your thing, you will probably find a more receptive audience in the Spirituality & Mysticism subforum.
Welcome to the Shroomery!
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: The Divided Quantum [Re: Mr Person]
#19240117 - 12/07/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fair enough; good advice! One thing I've been thinking a lot about lately, pertaining especially to modern science, is the dichotomy of "objective" versus "subjective." We tend to favor the former as somehow truer. A thought:
Subjective impressions are every bit as valid in sensing the nature of reality as objective measurements are. For example, depending on one's spiritual attainments, one can know just as much about the quantum nature of reality as a physicist does without ever having opened a physics textbook. Many Buddhist scholars have done just this over the centuries. The sensation of redness is every bit as legitimate as asserting the frequency of red light. One frame of reference is in no way superior to the other. These are two sides of the same coin that comes out of nature's purse. In our materialist, modern world, with science as the new religion, it seems we have denigrated the validity of subjective experience in favor of a more objective one, which we now somehow regard as truer. Both views of the world are equally valid, and totally complementary.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Another thought:
The age-old debate is that of fate versus free will. Why not both? I have no problem seeing that some type of intentional action is present in humans (and other animals), whilst the whirlwinds of the changing universe underlie and determine the vast majority of phenomena. "Free" will is obviously very small in its interaction with the universe compared to the overwhelming hand of what we call fate. Both are there, but really, an individual will is extremely tiny compared with the behavior of the rest of nature. Only when one gets to the level of the Caesars and Napoleons does the will have much of an outlet. Placing fate and will in mutually exclusive categories shows a basic lack of imagination.
More abstractly, and perhaps more to the point, "block time" can be a true description of our universe and, to my mind at least, still preserve volition. In block time, in a higher dimension one would be able to see every event from the beginning of our universe until its demise -- it is basically a "block" of events which only appear to unfold in our dimension of time. Like beads on a string. I can imagine that, even though the events of the universe may in some way be predetermined (by fate), it does not nullify our ability to be willful. Perhaps you were always going to choose a particular way. In block time, you were somehow bound to do it.
Why can't you really have chosen it? Does block time really forbid it?
My contention is no, it doesn't; any concession made that fate obviously exists does not exclude willful behavior. Appreciating the power of fate may serve to trivialize the notion of will, which in my opinion cannot properly be called truly "free." But will and fate are compatible.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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There are random and deterministic forces at work in the universe. I think fate and free will are old fashioned but I agree with the gist that neither a random universe nor a purely deterministic universe would be capable of manifesting life.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: Rahz]
#19253845 - 12/10/13 03:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A determined randomness of novel sorts, and yet familiar all at once.. sometimes known as a coincidence or synchronicity.
There is a limit or establishment, a determined point that lays the foundation for everything undetermined. The past. The building blocks of the now. What exactly determines why hydrogen fuses and stabilizes over time - space into the entirety of the periodic table of elements?..which eventually phases into life known and unknown, all dependent on that determination?
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: hTx]
#19253855 - 12/10/13 03:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Light has both wave and particle composition. Matter has both mass and energy composition (potentially). Why not have both fate and will composition as well in the view that takes in human stories (history).
We are smart but just learning the complexity of the universe, complete facets of the same thing that have other facets that are completely different are becoming more common.
When you allow for time and transformation, a facet can be a momentary glimpse, and the next glimpse can be significantly different (configuration/composition).
The views suggest a composite wave character, the connection between views may have a structural linkage (can go back and forth - the real linkage is visible) or they may just be temporal passage (in which case we are seeing a shadow or projection of some underlying structure or other relationship).
just rambling
but having had a peak at the website, I have to say that there is a difference between allowing all things to be said, and meaning all things at the same time.
some ideas are not useful at all, but they worm their way into thought like family politics, I mean, how can you deny cousin harold, the pedophile priest, a slice of turkey on thanksgiving, when you know everything about his cosmology is fucked.
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Edited by redgreenvines (12/10/13 04:02 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: redgreenvines]
#19254512 - 12/10/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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you wrote:
"Light has both wave and particle composition. Matter has both mass and energy composition (potentially). Why not have both fate and will composition as well..."
That is excellent. A succinct and elegant synopsis of my point.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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curious what your thoughts are on the 6th and 7th circuits.
Timothy Leary had the 6th as the 7th but I think RAW was correct
by switching them.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: hTx]
#19278362 - 12/15/13 09:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree -- Robert Anton Wilson was correct to change the order in the scheme. My best explanation as to exactly why is kind of abstract and mathematical, actually, and can be found on my website under "Previously Published Material," it's the first thing in there. It would make no sense for me to go into it here, so, if you're curious, take ten seconds and check it out.
Less technically, I think metaprogramming morphs directly into non-locality as the nervous system is ratcheted up. Genetic memory is a powerful experience, but I do not think it is as fundamental as, for example, imprinting the seventh circuit.
The real confusion comes in when one tries to align all this with the chakras. Obviously, both the seventh and eighth circuits find parallels in the "third eye" and "crown" chakras, respectively, but what about the sixth, neurogenetic circuit? Is it really even a circuit, or is one just metaprogramming the DNA script? I think it's real, but trying to place it in this scheme is confusing.
Anyway, to get back to the original question, RAW was right because seven morphs into eight, so it does not make sense to separate the two with the neurogenetic circuit.
Hugely interesting question.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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hTx
(:


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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interesting. I have observed RAW to be right with my own consciousness, metaprogrammimg is deeper than what Leary I.guess originally. accounted for..the circuit seems to encompass all of them, or work with all of them at the very least. I would say fifth circuit is a form of metaprograming the nervous system since that is when one can easily manipulate the lower four.
Have you discovered what could be called the 9th? I figured 8 was very poetic, representing infinity on some level.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
(:


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: hTx]
#19282453 - 12/16/13 04:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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choosing multiple. realities with feed back from the neurogenetic..the choice has been called the 7th circuit but really..is it just free will?
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: hTx]
#19283104 - 12/16/13 10:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, I agree that metaprogramming is foundational to all of the circuits except the eighth non-local circuit, which is the true foundation of the universe and consciousness.
I do think nature goes beyond the eighth circuit -- I don't know whether you'd call it the ninth circuit or not -- and I assume it can keep going all the way up to infinity. But yes, I think the ninth circuit is a manifestation of a deeper reality in which the quantum of action is no longer fundamental, and from which matter and energy are merely surface manifestations of a more inherent, deeper matrix of pure information. The physicist David Bohm actually did some physics along these lines, and he called the wavefunction (the 8th circuit) the "Implicate Order" and the reality beyond the wavefunction, which he deemed concretely real, the "Super-Implicate Order." So there is some agreement that the universe does not end with eight circuits.
In response to your suggestion that metaprogramming is another term for "free will," yes, I think you could say that. Essentially the notion here is that, in normal, everyday consciousness, we are only aware -- we only have access to -- one track, one set of decisions, one set of events. When we make a decision, it happens virtually automatically. The idea is that, during metaprogramming awareness, we are aware and can deliberately choose from the other options which normally reside out of view in our subconscious. We can choose from multiple reality tracks, if you will.
Another way to look at it, perhaps more intuitively, is that the subconscious becomes conscious during metaprogramming and so we have a host of options and choices that normally we would have no conscious inkling of.
So, getting back you your question, yes, this could be called what the mystics, religious scholars and philosophers have called true free will.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
Edited by DividedQuantum (12/16/13 01:02 PM)
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hTx
(:


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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I read your site in its entirety and you used to be involved with deoxy eh? as did I but not until later..just spent time on the chatter when it was still functional .there was some really intelligent and enlightened folks there and I miss that atmosphere..
anyways, good job with the site we have come to many the same observations, especially your thoughts on "nothing".
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: hTx]
#19284902 - 12/16/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm glad you like the site. It was fun putting it together.
Alas, the deoxy days were good ones. I agree that there were some great folks there back in the day. I suppose, though, that it simply ran its course, and that was that. Too bad it's gone.
In any case, we have the Shroomery!
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Great site, lots to think about. I do hope you post more here
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Re: "free" will and fate: incompatible? [Re: viktor]
#19289009 - 12/17/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks! Yeah, I intend to.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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