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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11
#1923565 - 09/16/03 10:35 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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WTF?
Yahoo! News
Rumsfeld Sees No Link Between Iraq, 9/11 Tue Sep 16, 8:29 PM ET
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday he had no reason to believe that Iraq (news - web sites)'s Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) had a hand in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.
At a Pentagon (news - web sites) news conference, Rumsfeld was asked about a poll that indicated nearly 70 percent of respondents believed the Iraqi leader probably was personally involved.
"I've not seen any indication that would lead me to believe that I could say that," Rumsfeld said.
He added: "We know he was giving $25,000 a family for anyone who would go out and kill innocent men, women and children. And we know of various other activities. But on that specific one, no, not to my knowledge."
The Bush administration has asserted that Saddam's government had links to al-Qaida, the terrorist network led by Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) that masterminded the Sept. 11 attacks. And in various public statements over the past year or so administration officials have suggested close links.
Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) said on Sunday, for example, that success in stabilizing and democratizing Iraq would strike a major blow at the "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9-11."
And Tuesday, in an interview on ABC's "Nightline," White House national security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) said that one of the reasons President Bush (news - web sites) went to war against Saddam was because he posed a threat in "a region from which the 9-11 threat emerged."
In an appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press," Cheney was asked whether he was surprised that more than two-thirds of Americans in the Washington Post poll would express a belief that Iraq was behind the attacks.
"No, I think it's not surprising that people make that connection," he replied.
Rice, asked about the same poll numbers, said, "We have never claimed that Saddam Hussein had either direction or control of 9-11."
"What we have said," she added, "is that this is someone who supported terrorists, helped to train them, but most importantly that this is someone who, with his animus toward the United States, with his penchant for and capability to gain weapons of mass destruction, and his obvious willingness to use them, was a threat in this region that we were not prepared to tolerate."
Cheney said he recalled being asked about an Iraq connection to 9-11 shortly after the attacks, and he recalled saying he knew of no evidence at that point.
"Subsequent to that, we have learned a couple of things," he said. "We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaida that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s; that it involved training, for example, on BW (biological warfare) and CW (chemical warfare) ? that al-Qaida sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems, and involved the Iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al-Qaida organization."
At his Pentagon news conference, Rumsfeld reiterated his belief that U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq are making satisfactory progress in stabilizing the country.
He said it was an "open question" whether the United States would get the 10,000 to 15,000 additional international troops it seeks to create a third multinational division for security duty in Iraq. The Pentagon has been hopeful of getting at least that many additional troops from Turkey, Pakistan or other friendly countries to beef up security and possibly to allow some of the 130,000 U.S. troops there to go home next year.
"It would relieve some of the pressure on our forces," Rumsfeld said. "Whether or not there will be a (United Nations (news - web sites)) resolution and whether or not ? even if there were a resolution ? we would get that number of troops is an open question."
Rice acknowledged that if commitments for more troops are gained, it "could be months" before they were in place.
Gen. Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who appeared with Rumsfeld, said there are more than 210,000 coalition forces in Iraq: 130,000 American troops, 24,000 British and other international troops, and 60,000 Iraqi police, border guards and civil defense forces.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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PsiloKitten
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1923750 - 09/16/03 11:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, it's really precious...
Condi Rice just gave an interview that said the administration never linked Saddam to 9/11 and there was no link.. yadda yadda yadda.
Backpeddling adminstration at its finest.
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Xlea321
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1923777 - 09/16/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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This really does teeter on the brink of insanity. It's incredible that a supposedly independent media swallows this bullshit without a word.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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pattern
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1923837 - 09/16/03 11:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld last year boasted that the Pentagon and CIA had ?bulletproof? evidence linking Iraq to al-Qaeda, although Rumsfeld refused to declassify any of the intelligence he had to support his claims.
Found that here, but its not a direct quote. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4372.htm
Need to find a good source on Rumsfeld's earlier 911/Iraq comments.
-------------------- man = monkey + mushroom
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: pattern]
#1923861 - 09/17/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why would they try and say they never made a link between Iraq and 9-11?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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pattern
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1923865 - 09/17/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said: Why would they try and say they never made a link between Iraq and 9-11?
Great question.
What prompted them to start saying that now?
Maybe its getting closer to election time.
-------------------- man = monkey + mushroom
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Xlea321
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1923877 - 09/17/03 12:09 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I guess they know if they say absolutely anything many people in the country will believe them. (Certainly many people on this board will believe them!). With such a submissive media they assume they can get away with pretty much anything.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1924055 - 09/17/03 01:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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More on backpeddling here too:
Quote:
New doctrine: admission by stealth By Stewart Powell and Dan Freedman in Washington September 17, 2003
The United States Vice-President's retreat from prewar claims that Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons appears to be part of a broader Bush Administration effort to abandon disputed assertions without admitting mistakes, experts say.
In an interview on Sunday, Dick Cheney rolled back his prewar claim that Iraq possessed nuclear weapons.
Two days earlier, the Deputy Secretary of Defence, Paul Wolfowitz, had said he was mistaken when he claimed that "a great many" high-ranking lieutenants of the al-Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden, were plotting with remnants of Saddam's regime to kill Americans in Iraq.
Stephen Hess, a Brookings Institution scholar who has worked for four presidents, said the Administration's goal "is not to admit mistakes".
"Their actions remind me of the old adage that being president is never having to say you're sorry," Mr Hess said.
Larry Sabato, a political scientist at the University of Virginia who studies political damage control, said the Administration was "very gradually trying to rub the rough edges off earlier claims and predictions".
"Administration officials are eating crow one by one, eating smaller portions and calling it prime beef," Mr Sabato said.
Mr Cheney conceded in a TV interview that he had mistakenly claimed three days before the March 19 invasion of Iraq that Saddam had "reconstituted nuclear weapons".
"I misspoke," Mr Cheney said. " We never had evidence that [Saddam] had acquired a nuclear weapon." He also retreated from his allegation that the September 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta had ties with Iraqi intelligence.
"We have never been able to develop any more of that yet, either in terms of confirming it or denying it," Mr Cheney said.
He also dropped his prewar certainty that unfettered inspections would uncover Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. "We think that the jury is still out in terms of trying to get everything pulled together with respect to what we know," Mr Cheney said.
He believed evidence would emerge to show at least that Saddam "had aspirations to acquire a nuclear weapon".
On Friday, Mr Wolfowitz narrowed his earlier claim that "a great many of bin Laden's key lieutenants are now trying to organise in co-operation with old loyalists from the Saddam regime to attack in Iraq".
Mr Wolfowitz said he had misspoken. "It's not 'a great many' - it's one," he said.
He said he had been referring to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an al-Qaeda operative training Iraqis in the use of chemical weapons.
The Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, offered his own roll-back last Wednesday when he was asked to clarify his March 30 claim on weapons of mass destruction that "we know where they are".
Mr Rumsfeld said: "Sometimes I overstate for emphasis. I should have said, 'I believe we're in that area. Our intelligence tells us they're in that area, and that was our best judgement.' "
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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monoamine
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1924261 - 09/17/03 03:09 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Mr Rumsfeld said: "Sometimes I overstate for emphasis.
-------------------- People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything... Douglas Adams
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1926875 - 09/17/03 09:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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So now Bush himself has come out to say that there is no link between Saddam and 9-11. Story
Look at this picture of Dick Cheney as he watches Bush's speech. Is he not some kind of cartoonish super villain? You can almost hear him saying "Excellent" in a low, Mr. Burns tone of voice and cackling under his breath.
LOOK at this guy. This is the guy you people trust with our country!??!?
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1926941 - 09/17/03 10:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like Cheney better than Bush.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1927056 - 09/17/03 10:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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LOOK AT HIM!
"Yes Georgie boy. Keep spinning. Soon the world will be in my clutches. Hahahahaahahahahahahaha"
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1927066 - 09/17/03 10:54 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, and? I like him. I like Rumsfeld as well. hehehehehe!
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1927070 - 09/17/03 10:55 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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BTW, why is it a surprise they all say there is no known connection?
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1927111 - 09/17/03 11:07 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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You know they gave the people the impression that Iraq was behind 9-11. That was how they got so many people to ride.
"I hear people saying we don't need this war I say there's some things worth fighting for What about our freedom and this piece of ground? We didn't get to keep 'em by backing down They say we don't realize the mess we're getting in Before you start preaching Let me ask you this my friend
CHORUS 1 Have you forgotten how it felt that day To see your homeland under fire And her people blown away? Have you forgotten when those towers fell? We had neighbors still inside Going through a living hell And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden Have you forgotten?
They took all the footage off my T.V. Said it's too disturbing for you and me It'll just breed anger that's what the experts say If it was up to me I'd show it every day Some say this country's just out looking for a fight After 9/11 man I'd have to say that's right
CHORUS 1 Have you forgotten how it felt that day To see your homeland under fire And her people blown away? Have you forgotten when those towers fell? We had neighbors still inside Going through a living hell And we vowed to get the ones behind Bin Laden Have you forgotten?
I've been there with the soldiers Who've gone away to war And you can bet that they remember Just what they're fighting for
CHORUS 2 Have you forgotten all the people killed? Yes, some went down like heroes in that Pennsylvania field Have you forgotten about our Pentagon? All the loved ones that we lost And those left to carry on Don't you tell me not to worry 'bout Bin Laden Have you forgotten?
Have you forgotten? Have you forgotten?"
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1927120 - 09/17/03 11:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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So when did the administration right that song?
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Learyfan]
#1927130 - 09/17/03 11:13 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Learyfan said: LOOK at this guy. This is the guy you people trust with our country!??!?
I don't trust anybody who is desirous of wearing the ring of power. That my dear Frodo, is why we must destroy the concept of the state as a solution to our problems so that no one may be tempted to grasp it and hold it as his own... Capisce?
-------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Autonomous]
#1927134 - 09/17/03 11:14 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Do you think there should be no state? Just curious.
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1927150 - 09/17/03 11:18 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is what we should be striving for as an ultimate goal... 'I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.' Henry David Thoreau (Civil Disobedience)
-------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Autonomous] 1
#1927168 - 09/17/03 11:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wonder if mankind will ever reach that point. I have my doubts.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Autonomous]
#1927213 - 09/17/03 11:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.' Henry David Thoreau (Civil Disobedience)
That's awesome.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1927219 - 09/17/03 11:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: I wonder if mankind will ever reach that point. I have my doubts.
As do I (certainly not in my lifetime). However, it is within human capabilities to reach this goal. It will require (r)evolutionary changes in our ways of thinking, including widespread acceptance of the concept of personal responsibility and the abandonment of laying blame on inanimate objects (such as guns, drugs or money) or systems (such as science or capitalism) for human decisions about how to use such things.
-------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Autonomous]
#1927263 - 09/17/03 11:42 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
It will require (r)evolutionary changes in our ways of thinking, including widespread acceptance of the concept of personal responsibility and the abandonment of laying blame on inanimate objects (such as guns, drugs or money) or systems (such as science or capitalism) for human decisions about how to use such things.
Exactly. The only way this can happen though, is with psychedelic chemcials.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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PsiloKitten
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Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Autonomous]
#1927375 - 09/18/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cheney's like the great OZ in a Tim Burton revision. Condi Rice's backstep From the march 2003 press conference: Saddam Hussein has a long history of reckless aggression and terrible crimes. He possesses weapons of terror. He provides funding and training and safe haven to terrorists -- terrorists who would willingly use weapons of mass destruction against America and other peace-loving countries. Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, to our people, and to all free people. If the world fails to confront the threat posed by the Iraqi regime, refusing to use force, even as a last resort, free nations would assume immense and unacceptable risks. The attacks of September the 11th, 2001 showed what the enemies of America did with four airplanes. We will not wait to see what terrorists or terrorist states could do with weapons of mass destruction. ...Iraq is a part of the war on terror. Iraq is a country that has got terrorist ties. It's a country with wealth. It's a country that trains terrorists, a country that could arm terrorists. And our fellow Americans must understand in this new war against terror, that we not only must chase down al Qaeda terrorists, we must deal with weapons of mass destruction, as well. ...Colin Powell, in an eloquent address to the United Nations, described some of the information we were at liberty of talking about. He mentioned a man named Al Zarqawi, who was in charge of the poison network. He's a man who was wounded in Afghanistan, received aid in Baghdad, ordered the killing of a U.S. citizen, USAID employee, was harbored in Iraq. There is a poison plant in Northeast Iraq. To assume that Saddam Hussein knew none of this was going on is not to really understand the nature of the Iraqi society. on and on and on and on... Argue linguists all you want with me.. but how hard for him would it have been to insert one sentence.. "Although Saddam Hussain has no links to the 9/11 tradgedy" if he was going to repeatedly link him to al queda? Autonomous... on edit, this wasnt directed at you, I just hit the quick reply
--------------------
Edited by PsiloKitten (09/18/03 12:18 AM)
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1928444 - 09/18/03 08:49 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know about arguing 'linguists' with you, but how does any of that remotely say that Saddam was involved with 9/11? More disengenuous reporting designed to put words in the mouth of the administration.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1928583 - 09/18/03 09:48 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh come on shak.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1928592 - 09/18/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why don't you go play hide and fuck yourself Alex. None of that claims a link between Saddam and 9/11.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1928626 - 09/18/03 10:11 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why don't you go play hide and fuck yourself Alex. None of that claims a link between Saddam and 9/11.
Go and have a lie down shak, you're way too heated.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1928636 - 09/18/03 10:17 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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He makes no mention of Saddam being linked to al queda. He says Saddam could possibly arm terrorists and has supported and trained them in the past. The only link I can see he is implying is that Saddam Hussein and Al Queda are both considered enemies of America and the free world....
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
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Lazerouth
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: st0nedphucker]
#1928692 - 09/18/03 10:51 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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umm since when was there sposed to be a link between iraq an 9/11? its been blatently obvious to everyone including mr.bush the whole time an it was never even an issue.
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Dava
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Lazerouth]
#1928760 - 09/18/03 11:28 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
He makes no mention of Saddam being linked to al queda. He says Saddam could possibly arm terrorists and has supported and trained them in the past. The only link I can see he is implying is that Saddam Hussein and Al Queda are both considered enemies of America and the free world....
Anyone could possibly arm terrorists. America also supported, trained and armed terrorists in the past (taliban, iraq anyone?) Oh, but thats ofcourse before they were terrorists, terrorism against russians or iranians is called bravery i guess.
They are not directly saying that there is link but they are implying it through a lot of "ifs and coulds" imho. And the everyday american citizen will surely pick up those ifs and couldawoulda's and will see a link (like the poll prooves).
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1928790 - 09/18/03 11:40 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anyone could possibly arm terrorists.
Yes but the majority of people aren't head of states....
Quote:
America also supported, trained and armed terrorists in the past (taliban, iraq anyone?) Oh, but thats ofcourse before they were terrorists, terrorism against russians or iranians is called bravery i guess.
LMAO, Alex is that you?
-------------------- The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.
Edited by st0nedphucker (09/18/03 11:47 AM)
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afoaf
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1928835 - 09/18/03 11:59 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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well, lookie here, shakta learned a new word!
`disengenuous`
keep towing luvdem's line there, bruddah.
I think it's pretty clear that this administration has, all along, spoken in such a manner as to indirectly paint a pretty clear and frightening picture and now that things are stagnating and support waning they are using this same doublespeak to gingerly tip toe backwards from their war drums.
how do these people sleep at night?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Xlea321
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1928849 - 09/18/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good point Dava. 70% of americans think Saddam had something to do with 9/11 so obviously the message is getting through somehow. Either the media is so far up Bush's ass it spreads supportive lies automatically or it's Bush and his buddies constantly linking Saddam and "terrorism"
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: st0nedphucker]
#1928852 - 09/18/03 12:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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LMAO, Alex is that you? Careful! You're getting giddy again..
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Edame
gone
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1929061 - 09/18/03 01:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Here are some quotes from Bush in case people are forgetting how he used misleading language to imply a connection:
"The war on terror, you can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror. And so it's a comparison that is -- I can't make because I can't distinguish between the two, because they're both equally as bad, and equally as evil, and equally as destructive."
"We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."
"...we need to think about Saddam Hussein using al Qaeda to do his dirty work, to not leave fingerprints behind."
"If the world fails to confront the threat posed by the Iraqi regime, refusing to use force, even as a last resort, free nations would assume immense and unacceptable risks. The attacks of September the 11th, 2001, showed what the enemies of America did with four airplanes. We will not wait to see what terrorists or terrorist states could do with weapons of mass destruction."
"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions."
"The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. In these 19 months that changed the world, our actions have been focused and deliberate and proportionate to the offense. We have not forgotten the victims of September the 11th -- the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got."
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1929193 - 09/18/03 01:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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shakta, Wow. You are amazing. I dont even know what to say about you anymore. And my momma always said if I couldnt say anything nice then I shouldnt say anything at all. Laz, see the post regarding how 70% of americans think there is a link. It obviously came from somewhere.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1929240 - 09/18/03 01:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks, you can remain in wonderment for a while if you want. The fact still remains that no one has said that Saddam was responsible for 9-11.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1929356 - 09/18/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nice quotes Edame. It's clear that they tried to associate Saddam and Al Quaeda as much as possible.
Just make some mention of 9-11 and you can do anything you want to the people.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1929357 - 09/18/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten asks:
Argue linguists all you want with me.. but how hard for him would it have been to insert one sentence.. "Although Saddam Hussain has no links to the 9/11 tradgedy" if he was going to repeatedly link him to al queda?
And how hard would it have been for some reporter to ask (some time in the last two years), "Do you believe Sadam Hussein had any part in the 9-11 tragedy?" Correct me if I am laboring under a false impression, but isn't that the kind of question reporters get paid to ask?
Let's put this in context. The article you provided says --
Quote:
At a Pentagon news conference, Rumsfeld was asked about a poll that indicated nearly 70 percent of respondents believed the Iraqi leader probably was personally involved.
It seems it wasn't even a question about Rumsfeld's own beliefs (although it is impossible to know that without a direct quote of the question which was asked), it was a question on what he felt about the beliefs of the people who responded to the poll in question.
I have been following this pretty closely for two years. At no point have I ever seen a report of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, or any other cabinet member saying they thought Hussein was personally involved in 9 - 11. Their remarks have always been substantially more generic than that. Some of them may believe Hussein was personally involved in other terrorist attacks which took place outside the borders of Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait, but I must admit I can't think of an instance where any of them have said that, either.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1929396 - 09/18/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten writes:
Laz, see the post regarding how 70% of americans think there is a link.
Setting aside the question of the accuracy of any poll which samples a miniscule fraction of a populace and claims it represents to within a few per cent the opinions of an entire nation --
Another poll claims 30 per cent of the youth of Germany (or is it all Germany? Can't recall) believe 9 - 11 was planned by the American government.
The truth of a proposition is not determined by the number of its adherents.
It obviously came from somewhere.
A very large number of people have their own inbuilt prejudices. They believe what they want to believe in the absence of proof and even often in the face of contrary evidence. It has been ever thus, and always will be. People hear what they want to hear.
It didn't need to "come from somewhere". The sad fact is that a dismayingly large portion of humanity either can't or won't listen, and/or can't or won't expend the mental effort to comprehend what they read. Add to that the inbuilt prejudices mentioned above, and it is not surprising that a large number of Americans would believe Hussein was directly involved in the attack regardless of what any public official has to say on the matter.
pinky
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1929410 - 09/18/03 02:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The sad fact is that a dismayingly large portion of humanity either can't or won't listen, and/or can't or won't expend the mental effort to comprehend what they read. Add to that the inbuilt prejudices mentioned above, and it is not surprising that a large number of Americans would believe Hussein was directly involved in the attack regardless of what any public official has to say on the matter.
You dont think there may have been a subtle attempt to put this idea into peoples heads without anyone in the administration actually saying it...or am I just being paranoid?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: GazzBut]
#1929423 - 09/18/03 02:54 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you are being paranoid.:) I think they have put forward an Al Qeada - Saddam link, but not a direct link to the attacks. I personally am one of the '70%' that think he at least knew about it before it happened. He did put his military on high alert just before it happened. Whether or not he was involved in financing it or planning it at all I don't know.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1929433 - 09/18/03 02:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh,
I forgot.
You live here.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1929455 - 09/18/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
PsiloKitten said: Oh,
I forgot.
You live here.
When I have said that to someone from outside the US I got roasted for it.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?
Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1929969 - 09/18/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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The sad fact is that a dismayingly large portion of humanity either can't or won't listen, and/or can't or won't expend the mental effort to comprehend what they read. Add to that the inbuilt prejudices mentioned above, and it is not surprising that a large number of Americans would believe Hussein was directly involved in the attack regardless of what any public official has to say on the matter.
that being said, don't you think it's easy for political officials to speak just generically enough so as not to have to make any formal retractions later while still planting the seeds of speech that will, invariably in the minds of the (simpleton) public, lead them to make these connections on their own.
the power of suggestion is strong.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1929993 - 09/18/03 05:30 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im sure I will too.
But if you walked the streets of this country and talked to the people, you would have a bit of a clearer picture.
GW considers me a pain in the ass, because Im one of those people that ask every gas station attendant and walmart employee what they think about the status of today's world. I listen, I sometimes try to gently contradict, but basically.. I take our temperature. I found my voice while cradled in the crowds of NorCal protestors, but their opinions were in large part the same as mine and they were giving me no insight to the questions I was seeking. Mainly, as the Black Eyed Peas state, Where is the Love? --
GW and I just embarked on a trip from California to Texas, it was an amazing, eye opening experience. 4 days in a car towing a uhaul, accompanied by 2 screaming kitties I spoke to people from all over the US, some were nomadic travellers stuck in the desert with me, like Jacob. Alot of them had uncomfortable opinions that were like the Biblical rock that changed Jacob's perception. Mine is forever changed and I hope along the way I was able to make some of them see things a little less in black and white, but shades of grey inbetween.
But I do know that the average american does think that the President linked Saddam to 9/11. Ive literally told HUNDREDS of people since the war began that there is no link. Ive debated it with atleast a couple hundred of them. I carry around links to proof. I hand them out. It was the first cause I ever participated wholly in... in my entire life. It was what truly pissed me off in the beginning of this war. It was the dirtiest lie. So, someone can sit in their seperate nation and they can read the news or post on a shroomery discussion board.. but until they get their assess out there and walk among the masses, honestly... I dont give a fuck.
I dont mean to be rude, just truthful.. and shakta, as much as you like to bicker. I know you have the aptitude and realize that the people do believe this and there is a reason why.
Sometimes it seems like you just like to play devil's advocate. Trust me, it takes one to know one ;-)
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1930051 - 09/18/03 05:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hehehe. I get what you are saying. Many people do think that there is a link. Here is my opinion of the whole damn thing.
I still believe the administration believed everything they told us before the war. I also think that public opinion will change what is actually said. The 9/11 connection, and the 'immenent threat' thing are the main two. Neither of these things were ever really said, and the second one the opposite was said. Still large sections of the population believe it mainly because of the media. At this point none of that shit matters. The main battle has already been fought, and now we are trying to build the country. I say build, because we are finding out that the country was basically in shambles before we ever got there.
So in the end if we find out that we were blatantly lied to, it will not matter. If Bush doesn't get reelected because he intentionally lied so what. He will be in deep shit if this is true. I don't believe it, but it couls be true. Once Iraq is truely free of the opression they have been under for 30 years the whole thing will have been worth it. I do buy into the Bush Doctrine. I think a free Iraq will have a profound affect in the region. I really do. It just makes sense to me. Getting rid of Saddam should have a great affect on the Israeli/Palestinian situation at some point as well. I have said it in the past and I will say it again, the World should come together to rid itself of evil murderous dictators like Saddam.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1930087 - 09/18/03 06:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK, hold the presses. You are saying that the US said that there was no imminent threat?
Wha?
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SquattingMarmot
Inquiring Mind
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 418
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1930118 - 09/18/03 06:10 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Noooooooo!!! Lets please not start the imminent threat fight again. We all know Bush never used those exact words, but the entire Bush Admin. used deceptive language that implied Iraq was an imminent threat, much like they implied that Saddam had something to do with Sept 11. Its called plausible deniablility, they never DIRECTLY came out and said these things, but they knowingly used deceptive language, and they did not feel the need to clarify themselves until 6 months after the war is over.
-------------------- "In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem." "The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day." - George Carlin
Edited by SquattingMarmot (09/18/03 06:12 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son
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Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1930165 - 09/18/03 06:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten writes:
But I do know that the average american does think that the President linked Saddam to 9/11.
I have never disputed that. The question is, why do they think that?
Clearly, many people in this forum are honestly convinced Bush's speechwriters and press officers and personal handlers carefully prepare for his prior memorization certain rote phrases and stock responses to potential questions; phrases which are specifically linguistically designed to somehow slide by the consciousness of the listener and implant an irresistable subliminal message. For all I know, Bush's handlers really do that kind of thing.
My point is that even if they do carefully craft these little linguistic nuggets, even if Bush successfully memorizes them and manages to repeat them flawlessly, the nuggets have no power over those who actually LISTEN -- and THINK about what they are listening to. They have no power over those who actually READ -- and THINK about what they are reading. The acquisition of knowledge is not a passive process. You don't learn by just keeping your eyes and ears open and lapsing into some kind of trance while images and sounds wash over you. You must actively engage the MIND as well.
As an aside, I must also point out again that even if these linguistic Trojan horses were the finest examples of subliminal conditioning ever devised, all it would have taken to completely disarm them is a single reporter asking a single, blunt, direct question -- with perhaps a few followups if the first answer was evasive or unclear. This is, of course, exactly what happened in the press conference described in your first post of the thread.
I find it tiresome to hear people complain they have been "brainwashed" and "deceived". Where is the personal responsibility of these complainers? The words they misinterpreted are a matter of public record and easily checked. I understood what was being said by the administration, as did others here in this forum. You seem to have a brain on your shoulders -- I'm sure you didn't believe Bush and Cheney et al had ever claimed Hussein was involved in 9-11 either. It may come as a surprise to you, but I can assure you that not all people listen and read as carefully as you do.
pinky
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: SquattingMarmot]
#1930197 - 09/18/03 06:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im sorry, I must have missed that one.
I wont post all of the quotes from Bush saying that Saddam was a threat.. a real threat, etc. And ill go look that thread up.
But, Im sorry, that just boggles the mind.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1930379 - 09/18/03 08:07 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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See, that is the point. I don't want to rehash the imminent threat thing again. I think Mark has illustrated what happens. MOST people are like sheep, they have no idea what is going on around them, because they don't care. Everyone on here at least has an opinion.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1930540 - 09/18/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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See, that is the point. I don't want to rehash the imminent threat thing again. I think Mark has illustrated what happens. MOST people are like sheep, they have no idea what is going on around them, because they don't care. Everyone on here at least has an opinion
See, I dont nessecarily believe that though. I think it is easier to deal with to just say that people are sheep. It gives us a reason to do nothing, just like we accuse them of doing. I dont appreciate other's comments that seem to infer that americans are somehow intellectually incompetenat because they dont embark on a continual quest for knowledge.
I think that alot of people are naieve.
I think that alot of people are scared.
I think that alot of people are lazy.
I think that some people dont care about anything other then themselves, ie. what's going on around them.
But I dont think that the majority of people are without care on the status of the world.
I do think that alot of people honestly trust too much. They still believe in America, they believe in the system... they believe without questioning. Not because they are somehow mentally inferior, but because they didnt think they had to.
The thing is, what pisses me off about some people who waste all their time trying to prove others wrong or fight the good fight or whatever.. they alienate any people that they could hope to awaken. What good is a party if you are the only one there? What kind of people purposely invest time in an opinion that when they say it, alienates practically everyone because it leaves open no room for questions, for dissent, for discussion. Black or white. I know your life better then you do kinda stuff.
I also dont understand , if the masses are such sheep and they dont care, why dont more people just go and put a hole in their head.. because if we accept the worst premise then there is no hope. People will act how you treat them. But why cant we, as the so called "enlightened", the "awakened" understand that there is a myriad of reasons that people think the way they do.
For instance, Im obviously vehemently antiwar. Prior to the Iraq war I told my mother I was going to be out in force protesting. She spun that whole, we need to support our troops arguement and I kept trying to tell her about how I was supporting our troops by trying to get them back home.
She told me about how her brother went to war at 18 and came back to have people spit on him and hurl insults in his face. The war left an impression on him that drove him to alcoholism and he recently passed away. All of my life I remember the haunted look in the eyes of my uncle and although I could cognitively say that is was what war did to him, I didnt have any personal vested interests. My mom, on the otherhand saw her brother come back broken and have alot of people blame him and torment him for doing what he thought was right.. what they had all been told was right.
When I stepped outside of the box of judging her because her view conflicted with mine I finally understood how to speak to her about my views in a way that wouldnt immediately cut her brain off from my words via her heart. We dont agree about everything and I realize she is my mom, but now she questions things differently. Ive armed her with knowledge that she can apply to her own experiences. I've taken her belief and understood where it came from.
The masses arent sheep. They are just like you and me, shakta -- two side of the same american coin, most of them dont know what to do about it tho. And they are scared that any moment, their carefully constructed lives have the capability of falling down around them. So maybe their first instinct is, be still.
I see this generation of youth today that is represented at the shroomery. This generation so different from the one that started the drug craze in the 60s. They were opening up their minds, now we are using drugs to turn ours off. In mainstream american in 1960 kids didnt shoot heroin or guzzle pharmacueticals, but those GIs in vietnam sure learned about how they could escape the world they were living in with drugs. They are all trying to become sheep. They are all trying not to care. And we are all sitting around here arguing and fighting and being Mr. and Ms. Right.. but we arent helping. If you hold yourself above someone else, how can things ever get better?
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1930805 - 09/18/03 10:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten writes:
The thing is, what pisses me off about some people who waste all their time trying to prove others wrong or fight the good fight or whatever.. they alienate any people that they could hope to awaken.
The thing is, what saddens me about some people who waste all their time trying to hold onto their preconceived notions is that when someone presents an opposing viewpoint, they refuse to investigate it, preferring instead to feel alienated. It's so much easier to feel alienated than it is to check one's premises, after all.
As for "fighting the good fight"... some people debate with at least a couple hundred of people, trying to convince them to see things their way. They carry around links to proof. They hand them out. For people like that it may be the first cause they ever participated wholly in... in their entire life. They don't care whether or not they alienate people in the process, because they believe it is important that people receive accurate knowledge of important issues.
What kind of people purposely invest time in an opinion that when they say it, alienates practically everyone because it leaves open no room for questions, for dissent, for discussion. Black or white. I know your life better then you do kinda stuff.
Gee, I dunno -- perhaps the kind of people who identify an area of a situation which others have misunderstood, or who have run across information that others haven't yet discovered which would allow them to understand a situation more fully.
As just one example, the whole "imminent threat" debacle. There were many people here who honestly believed Bush said something in his State of the Union address, and when it was proven to them that he in fact said no such thing, were they appreciative that their faulty knowledge had been corrected? Not at all! They were pissed off at those who pointed out the error. They were "alienated". Why is that?
Because as I said before, a hell of a lot of people believe what they want to believe. They hear what they want to hear. It was quite distressing to see how many had never bothered to actually READ the transcript of the actual speech in order to discover for themselves what Bush actually said. Instead, they took the lazy way out -- they sort of vaguely listened to the "recaps" of the "high points" some talking head in a thousand dollar suit read to them on the news, figuring that was all that was necessary to become informed.
The same was true of the seemingly endless discussions in this forum about Resolution 1441. Almost no one bothered to actually read the damn thing, despite repeated entreaties from multiple posters here. "Dude, that's way too long and boring to read. Just gimme the sound bite version, okay?"
There's a Libertarian talk show host who runs a blog called Nealz Nuze. The main page (http://www.boortz.com) prominently displays this warning:
ALWAYS REMEMBER Don't believe anything you read on this web page, or, for that matter, anything you hear on The Neal Boortz Show, unless it is consistent with what you already know to be true, or unless you have taken the time to research the matter to prove it's accuracy to your satisfaction. This is known as "doing your homework."
I think that's some of the best damned advice I've come across yet on the wonderful worldwide web. Don't you?
Don't confuse me with Shakta -- I don't accuse people of being sheep. Sheep are dumb. I merely point out that many people choose not to think about what they read; they choose not to think about what they hear; they choose not to think about what they see on the nightly news. It's not that they are incapable of thinking -- give them a reason to think and they'll do so very competently indeed. Unlike so many people who post here, I don't think the majority of people are unintelligent, quite the reverse. I regularly chastise posters here who claim the masses are idiots. People in general aren't stupid. There are just a lot of things they don't think about. And the most brilliant genius on the planet isn't going to hold an opinion worth a pinch of donkey dung on something he hasn't thought about.
pinky
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shakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1930817 - 09/18/03 10:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Your right. Sheep is a bad term. They just don't care.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1930838 - 09/18/03 10:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have to say that sometimes I wish I could just feel alienated and resort to flaming instead of engaging in legitimate debate. It requires so much work and investigation to get your facts straight. Google searches can often be misleading and it can be hard to figure out which sources to trust.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: silversoul7]
#1930875 - 09/18/03 10:44 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have to say that sometimes I wish I could just feel alienated and resort to flaming instead of engaging in legitimate debate.
Hee hee hee! That's the major objection I had when they dragged me kicking and screaming into the moderator position. Sometimes I want to just call some bonehead a bonehead. No longer an option for me, I'm afraid.
Quote:
Google searches can often be misleading and it can be hard to figure out which sources to trust.
Yup. It takes a while to get a feel for which ones to discard and which ones to follow further. Even then it isn't always a sure thing. I believe those who had to do substantial amounts of research manually in a decent library in the days before the Web have an edge.
pinky
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1930887 - 09/18/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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It sure would be nice if we could go to one place that had the truth about it all (life), of course that would be boring I suppose.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1930931 - 09/18/03 11:01 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh ye of self import. I dunno exactly where I was talking to you. I honestly dont even want to talk to you, but if you are going to address me directly, whatever man. The thing is, what saddens me about some people who waste all their time trying to hold onto their preconceived notions is that when someone presents an opposing viewpoint, they refuse to investigate it, preferring instead to feel alienated. It's so much easier to feel alienated than it is to check one's premises, after all. That's great and all, Im glad you feel that way. As for "fighting the good fight"... some people debate with at least a couple hundred of people, trying to convince them to see things their way. They carry around links to proof. They hand them out. For people like that it may be the first cause they ever participated wholly in... in their entire life. They don't care whether or not they alienate people in the process, because they believe it is important that people receive accurate knowledge of important issues. Dont presume to know how I handle myself. Im not some track giving street preacher. There is a difference between pushing yourself on others and giving people information when asked for it. Movements with people who behave like you continuously fail because they alienate. Some people try to learn from the mistakes of the past and some people insist on repeating them. I take a different approach in my life and, Id hope in my posts. It hasnt always been that way, but again.. from being out there in the streets with the american people you get to see a greater picture. Please tell me, just when was the last time you spoke to a regular Joe blow american, face to face? I dont mean to be a bitch here.. but, wtf do you know about what is going on here other then what you read on the internet? Please tell me because Ive just went back and spent hours reading your posts and you honestly dont sound like you've got your finger on the pulse of America, I may be wrong. I wont make assumptions and Id advise you to do the same in the future. Gee, I dunno -- perhaps the kind of people who identify an area of a situation which others have misunderstood, or who have run across information that others haven't yet discovered which would allow them to understand a situation more fully. So, they come off as Mr. Know it alls and accomplish what exactly? You can word your responses in ways that dont alienate people but still get your point across. I guess you havent ever been much of a making friends influencing people kind of guy, eh? Catch more flies with honey.. and so on and so forth. As just one example, the whole "imminent threat" debacle. There were many people here who honestly believed Bush said something in his State of the Union address, and when it was proven to them that he in fact said no such thing, were they appreciative that their faulty knowledge had been corrected? Not at all! They were pissed off at those who pointed out the error. They were "alienated". Why is that? It's a no brainer that people do not like to find out that they were wrong. Im guilty of it, you are guilty of it.. we all are. I dont understand how hard this is to grasp. Also, there were probably many that couldnt grasp how the word imminent was that big of a deal, the man said Saddam was a threat, he said it repeatedly infact. If we went to war, most people would assume that presidents dont wage crazy crystal ball forecasted wars.. Now we know in the future... exactly where in that press conference did it call the war preemptive either? Do you understand we have never engaged in a preemptive war before? Did you see all of the media sources, all the meet the presses, all the newspapers, kathy lee giffords, support america pro- tests, etc during those times in america? Did you experience the whole climate or just read his words on a sheet of paper or computer screen? Who are you to judge how someone takes something in the context of their life and experiences, here... in the country it was happening in? I can say it boggles my mind that you cant see the link. You can say you disagree.. but damn, do you have to just see everything in some absolute flat black? It's so.. uninspiring. But no, you arent wrong. Just like the people who believe that Bush implicated that Saddam was an immediate, imminent, ect threat are right. We all see different pictures in life. We are all allowed to see different PARTS of the pictures in life. This is not black and white, life is not black and white. Don't confuse me with Shakta -- I don't accuse people of being sheep. Sheep are dumb. I merely point out that many people choose not to think about what they read; they choose not to think about what they hear; they choose not to think about what they see on the nightly news. It's not that they are incapable of thinking -- give them a reason to think and they'll do so very competently indeed. Unlike so many people who post here, I don't think the majority of people are unintelligent, quite the reverse. I regularly chastise posters here who claim the masses are idiots. People in general aren't stupid. There are just a lot of things they don't think about. And the most brilliant genius on the planet isn't going to hold an opinion worth a pinch of donkey dung on something he hasn't thought about. Again, please tell me where I said you were like shakta or whatever you are saying here. My posts dont revolve around you, hun. Thank you, please drive through.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
#1930934 - 09/18/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Just out of curiousity..
Were you elected, like mods used to be, by the members of the shroomery? Or appointed by an administrator?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1931132 - 09/18/03 11:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wont post all of the quotes from Bush saying that Saddam was a threat Well, we had direct quoutes of Bush saying he was a serious threat and Rumsfield saying he was an immediate threat. The fact that our right wing collegues would try to deny the administration's position because they didn't happen to use the word "imminent" is mind-boggling but sadly typical
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1931151 - 09/19/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think they have put forward an Al Qeada - Saddam link, but not a direct link to the attacks. That's kinda what the art of propaganda is all about. It has to be believable on some level. The Nazi's never said "Hey everyone, we're going to put jews in gas ovens and smash babies heads against walls, do you agree with us?". The best propaganda is subtle. You drop hints, create general impressions. I personally am one of the '70%' that think he at least knew about it before it happened. I thought the 70% referred to those who thought it was involved?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1931221 - 09/19/03 12:23 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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PsiloKitten writes:
I dunno exactly where I was talking to you.
But you were talking about me. Or was the phrase "I dont appreciate other's comments that seem to infer that americans are somehow intellectually incompetenat because they dont embark on a continual quest for knowledge" aimed at someone else?
Movements with people who behave like you continuously fail because they alienate.
"Movements?" "People who behave like me?" LOL
Here's the deal -- I am not out dissenting or protesting or evangelizing or anything. I write my comments on a bulletin board -- one the vast majority of the world will never see. In a forum with maybe a few dozen regular contributors. Where people can skip by my posts if they so choose. If you perceive my behavior to be alienating, then I guess there's no danger you'll ever be co-opted into my "movement", is there? I'm no threat to you -- anything I say must be false because you find my style of writing irritating. The links I provide are not worth reading because I hold a strong opinion that there is such a thing as correct information and incorrect information. You are free to continue believing what you believe, so what's the problem?
Please tell me, just when was the last time you spoke to a regular Joe blow american, face to face?
Ten hours ago. He's from Wyoming. He and his wife both opposed the war. I know him pretty well... I've gone to dinner with him a few times this year. He's a funny guy with great taste in music. In the last week I've spoken face to face with about a dozen regular Joe Blow Americans, maybe more.
wtf do you know about what is going on here other then what you read on the internet?
Only what I saw for two weeks at the end of August on American TV, what I learn talking to regular Joe Blow Americans, and what I read in the occasional Time magazine or Miami Herald or New York Times that I get my hands on a few times a month. I haven't had a television of my own for about sixteen years now, so I have never seen a lot of the stuff people talk about here. Never seen Fox News, for example. Never heard Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter. Why do you ask?
Please tell me because Ive just went back and spent hours reading your posts...
Cool.
... and you honestly dont sound like you've got your finger on the pulse of America.
The comments I made about many people not thinking about what they read and see and hear are not restricted to Americans. They apply equally to most humans. Same with people believing what they want to believe. Americans are not unique in that regard.
I wont make assumptions and Id advise you to do the same in the future.
I have made no assumptions about you. I only respond to what you write.
So, they come off as Mr. Know it alls and accomplish what exactly? You can word your responses in ways that dont alienate people but still get your point across.
If people care more about getting all indignant than they care about the information I present, so be it.
I guess you havent ever been much of a making friends influencing people kind of guy, eh? Catch more flies with honey.. and so on and so forth.
Ah... assumptions. As it turns out, you are about as wrong as you could possibly be, but that's okay. The number of friends I have made and the degree of my influence don't alter the validity (or lack thereof) of what I post on this board. Those two factors of my life have no relevance at all to these posts.
It's a no brainer that people do not like to find out that they were wrong. Im guilty of it, you are guilty of it.. we all are. I dont understand how hard this is to grasp.
Ah. More incorrect assumptions. Actually, the only time I don't like finding out I was wrong is in a situation where a wrong decision of mine cost me time and money, or hurt someone. I have many times sincerely thanked people who have shown my thinking to be in error, because they saved me a lot of potential future grief.
Did you experience the whole climate or just read his words on a sheet of paper or computer screen?
I only had the opportunity to read his words. Oh -- and I did see one speech of his on TV about a year ago when I was in Canada. Everyone else who doesn't live in the US could pretty much sqay the same, I guess (and many who post here haven't bothered to do even that much). All I point out is that his words don't match people's recollections. I never said it was easy to read critically, to listen critically, to watch TV critically. I just said that almost everyone has the capacity to do so --if they choose to. Note that I have never even criticized them for not choosing to do so. People have busy lives, and a hell of a lot of them have precious little time to investigate stuff. You and I believe this stuff is important, so we spend more time on it than the average person does, and have a broader understanding of the issues than many people do. That is our choice, though.
Who are you to judge how someone takes something in the context of their life and experiences, here... in the country it was happening in? I can say it boggles my mind that you cant see the link.
Do you think this misreading of what people say is unique to America? I can assure you it isn't. I spent the first three and a half decades (roughly) of my life in Canada. I participated in the anti-Viet Nam war protests (yes, we had them in Canada, too), was a union shop steward for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers during the still-famous six week postal strike, marching alongside the Canadian Marxist-Leninist party. There's a picture of me holding one pole of a streetwide Marxist banner on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen newspaper. I was glued to the TV set during Watergate, I followed closely Canada's constitutional debates, NAFTA arguments, the whole Quebec Separatist boondoggle from the time martial law was declared in the early Seventies till the time of the latest referendum. When I go to Canada twice a year, I STILL watch the House of Commons Cable channel.
Guess what? People in Canada are (on the whole) no better at critical listening, critical reading, and critical TV watching than people in America. I will point out that Canadian politicians are every bit as adroit at spin management as Americans are. As I say, this business of missing what is really said is pretty much a universal phenomenon. Hell, it is illustrated plainly several times each day in this forum alone. The fact is that many people misread what others say. In a few cases this is because the people doing the writing are less than clear, but that is just not the case in the majority of the instances illustrated here.
If you choose not to believe that, you are of course free to do so.
Thnaks for your input. Have a nice day.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1931254 - 09/19/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was nominated by a mod, vouched for by several other mods and admins, and since no one objected the Admins agreed to make me a mod if I could be persuaded to take the job. The mod who originally nominated me finally persuaded me to accept.
At times I wish I hadn't. Fortunately I have not yet had to recommend anyone be banned, I have had to edit just a single post (a "scat" post from some doofus who usually hangs out exclusively in OTD), and I have locked just one thread... maybe two. For the most part people in this forum behave themselves.
It has been a long time since moderators have been elected by the general membership. The process I described above has been the norm for quite a while now.
pinky
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1931731 - 09/19/03 07:08 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: I thought the 70% referred to those who thought it was involved?
It was. I am not sure if that is true or not. Since we have no evidence it is, I do not know. Again I do think he at the very least knew it was going to happen.
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Dava
journeyman
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1931775 - 09/19/03 07:46 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
He did put his military on high alert just before it happened. Whether or not he was involved in financing it or planning it at all I don't know.
Why would he place his army on high alert anyway? As far as i know, America doesnt have a beaming machine for 200k soldiers. And i guess the iraqi troops could handle an attack by the troops who were present at the time of 9-11.
Besides, the world would never agree at an all-open attack on Iraq the days after 9-11 and nor would any american. The american government needed a buildup to the 2nd Gulf War. Both in personnel/goods as in getting enough americans supporting behind the war.
If you believe Saddam is involved because he placed his army on high alert, then you also should believe the conspiracy theories about 9-11.
Quote:
Who made a small fortune "shorting" airline and insurance stocks the day before Sept. 11?
What about this one? The person(s) who did this definetaly had to know about 9-11. (if you believe in Saddam being involved in 9-11 cause he placed his army on hig alert that is) However, they refuse to reveil the identity of the person(s). Is the government holding hands above some person(s)?
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1931785 - 09/19/03 07:58 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you think Americans would not have supported attacking Saddam right after the attack you are mistaken. We were one angry group of people. Many called for nuclear retaliation. I was not one of these people, but I can understand their anger.
Saddam knew.
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Dava
journeyman
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1931788 - 09/19/03 08:00 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nucleair retaliation against Saddam for 9-11? *shakes head*
Bush knew! (cause tha makes at much sense as saddam knew)
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1931813 - 09/19/03 08:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I didn't say using nukes made any sense, I am just telling you that your assumption that Americans in general would not have supported an attack is not completely true. Your assumption that Saddam would not be more likely to know about it than Bush is kind of silly though. Saddam rallying his forces right before the attack is at least an indication that he knew about it.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932071 - 09/19/03 10:33 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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What evidence do you have that Saddam put his "army" on "high alert" on Sep 10? Why the fuck would he do that? That's about as obvious as saying "I did it, please bomb me next".
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Dava
journeyman
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Loc: Belgium
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1932139 - 09/19/03 11:15 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Saddam rallying his forces right before the attack is at least an indication that he knew about it.
Rumsfeld taking private jets instead of normal aircraft is also an indication. Private investors who make a lot of money due to the attack the day before is also an indication.
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932203 - 09/19/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Correlation does not equal causation, just because two events happen (in this case 9/11 & Saddam's army on 'high alert') does not mean that there is a link between them.
There's an article here that says that Bush's recent retraction was hardly covered by the press:
Quote:
Bush 9/11 Admission Gets Little Play Story Doesn't Make Many Front Pages
By Seth Porges
NEW YORK -- Updated at 1:45 p.m. Eastern Standard Time
For months leading up this year's war on Iraq, the Bush administration implied that Saddam Hussein had a hand in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The argument was well-received by Americans, and might have been the single leading factor behind public support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. An oft-cited poll conducted by The Washington Post last month revealed that 69% of Americans continue to believe it likely that Hussein was personally involved in 9/11.
No real evidence to support this has emerged, however, leading some (including E&P, just last week) to declare that the media had failed in its duty to correct the public misperception.
So when President George Bush admitted on Wednesday, for the first time, that there was "no evidence that Hussein was involved with the September 11th" attacks, one would assume that would be big news and an opportunity for the press to make up for past failings.
And according to some newspapers, it was a big story. The Los Angeles Times and Chicago Tribune (both owned by the Tribune Co.) ran front-page stories on the revelation Thursday. But an analysis of most major American newspapers found the story either buried deep within the paper -- or completely absent.
Of America's 12 highest-circulation daily papers, only the L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, and Dallas Morning News ran anything about it on the front page. In The New York Times, the story was relegated to page 22. USA Today: page 16. The Houston Chronicle: page 3. The San Francisco Chronicle: page 14. The Washington Post: page 18. Newsday: page 41. The New York Daily News: page 14.
The New York Post and The Wall Street Journal didn't mention it at all.
Among large papers outside of the top 12 that ran the news on Page One were The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
The story was even more dramatic because Bush's remarks came on the heels of an assertion to the contrary made by Vice President Dick Cheney Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press." When asked about the poll that shows Americans overwhelmingly believe Hussein was involved in 9/11, Cheney replied that he thinks "it's not surprising that people make that connection. ... If we're successful in Iraq then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932274 - 09/19/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also, I found a link to a copy of a letter that Bush sent to Congress:
Quote:
Now and then
Now:
WASHINGTON - President Bush said Wednesday there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 ? disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq.
"There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al-Qaida ties," the president said. But he also said, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th."
Then:
Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate
March 18, 2003
Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)
Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
Sincerely,
GEORGE W. BUSH (Emphasis added)
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1932319 - 09/19/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said: What evidence do you have that Saddam put his "army" on "high alert" on Sep 10? Why the fuck would he do that? That's about as obvious as saying "I did it, please bomb me next".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/wirq23.xml
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932339 - 09/19/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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What is your point Edame? It say including those nations who...
There is no restriction to nations or leaders that were not involved, and it says nothing about Saddam being linked. Were is the evidence that they linked Saddam directly to 9/11 to begin with?
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932352 - 09/19/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Heh,
That seems like a pretty direct link to 9/11 to me. I dunno, Im sure the cons will call us crazy.
However, remember.. that was actually put out in first draft, fed to the american people who said, yummy.. then fed to the international community who chewed it up and spit it back out. Then, that doc was revised, removing that section.
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932370 - 09/19/03 12:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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The whole letter is in reference to Iraq specifically. Not only does it mention that military action was needed to protect the US against the 'threat' of Iraq, but it says that said action would be consistent with actions already taken "against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." Why mention 9/11 in this letter about invading Iraq in the first place if there's no proof of a connection, why is it there?
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
Edited by Edame (09/19/03 12:39 PM)
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932391 - 09/19/03 12:41 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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You just made my point for me. The action would be consistent with actions already taken "against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."
That does not say Saddam was linked to 9/11. It may be a bit of a political thing to add that in there, but it was still the complete truth. We were going in there for regime change plain and simple. You all can read anything you want into it, but it still does not say it.
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Dava
journeyman
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932418 - 09/19/03 12:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/wirq23.xml
Two weeks before 9-11! Then pls answer this question : do you think Rumsfeld was involved in the attacks? And if you say no you are as biased as could be. CAuse he started using private jets one month before the attack.
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932421 - 09/19/03 12:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Where does that letter mention regime change? It does mention the "continuing threat" posed by Iraq though.
So how is that letter not implying a connection there? Sure, it's not coming right out and saying that there's a link (and I didn't claim it did), but the implication is still there. Like I said, why mention action against the perpetrators of the WTC attacks in a letter about attacking Iraq if there's no connection?
I guess when Michael Moore does it it's different.
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1932428 - 09/19/03 12:51 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I guess I am biased then. The Secretary of Defense using a government jet compared to Saddam putting his forces on the highest alert they have and hiding in his bunkers is hardly the same thing. I think the government knew something might be coming, and that has been admitted, but the claim that they knew all about the details of the plot is crazy and has not been proven in the least.
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932436 - 09/19/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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The letter says the same type of action will be used against him that was used against the 9/11 people, namely the Taliban and Al Qeada, which is regime change.
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Dava
journeyman
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932442 - 09/19/03 12:54 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, the government knew. Actually, most european intelligence agencies knew there was something brewing and coming, and warned the americans ocuntless times without being heard. So why would it be so impossible for the iraqi intelligence to also have picked up the rumour there was something brewing and with not knowing what to expect, they placed their military on high alert. Does that sound impossible? The US constantly changes his alert-level. Thet changed their alert level the day before the chechenians walked in that russian theatre. Does that say something?
-------------------- "These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..." - Timothy Leary
Edited by Dava (09/19/03 12:57 PM)
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
#1932522 - 09/19/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am just putting it out there as a possibility. I have not said that he for sure knew about the events to come. The fact that he did do that, and had not done it in some time is a bit suspicious.
The main thing here is our government knew something was possibly going to happen. This kind of shit comes through all the time. You can't expect them to lock down the country for months and months because there are rumblings that something might happen. Unless we see specific intelligence that outlines the plot, the Bush Knew crowd have no evidence.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932527 - 09/19/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hang on shak, your best evidence is a 2 year old article in the telegraph? Are you serious? Do you have anything more recent pushing this story? 2 years ago there were articles saying all sorts of things about Iraq's WMD too.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1932542 - 09/19/03 01:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is all I got. At least it was published in a paper, unlike half of the Bush Knew tripe that gets posted here on a weekly basis.
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Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932581 - 09/19/03 01:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Who cares if Saddam knew before September 11th?
A lot of countries knew and tried to warn us.
But the Bush administration NEEDED 9-11 to happen, so we turned a blind eye.
-------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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Xlea321
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932592 - 09/19/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is all I got. At least it was published in a paper, unlike half of the Bush Knew tripe that gets posted here on a weekly basis.
Jeez. It's 2 year old conjecture by the CIA for christ sake. The same CIA who were insisting Saddam had WMD just 6 months ago.
You seem to believe anything that supports your point of view and disregard everything else.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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infidelGOD
illusion
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1932747 - 09/19/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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that article contains a series of unsubstantiated claims like:
"In a further development, Iraqi exiles have learnt from contacts in Baghdad that 58 young pilots, handpicked for their loyalty to the regime, underwent a rigorous three-month suicide mission course in 1999. The training took place at two separate airbases in Iraq"
and
"The "operational brains" behind the September 11 attack have been named by an Israeli intelligence official as Imad Mugniyeh, the head of special overseas operations for Hizbollah"
it's pretty much all conjecture. you'll notice that they always preface a claim with disclaimers like "exiles have learnt from contacts..." or "according to Western intelligence officials" or "The CIA is understood to have evidence that" or "The official quoted by Jane's, the military journal, said they "were probably financed and got some logistical support from the Iraqi intelligence service"".
they quote a bunch of anonymous sources and you take this as "evidence"? not to mention that article was written 9/23/2001 when there were all kinds of theories tossed about. but hey, if it's good enough for you, go ahead and believe it.
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: infidelGOD]
#1932764 - 09/19/03 02:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Damn it. If some crazy convict's word is good enough for you Bush Knew guys why can't I use this as evidence that Saddam knew? I don't know if the story is true or not, but if it is don't you think it is a bit to convenient. Which governments told us the day or month it was going to happen?
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infidelGOD
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932781 - 09/19/03 02:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think if there was anything to that story, the Bush administration would have been all over it. I mean, they did all they could to try to link Saddam with 9/11 (without success as evidenced by their recent statements)
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: infidelGOD]
#1932790 - 09/19/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, show me were they ever said there was a link between the two. They didn't though. Just because everyone chooses to believe something doesn't mean it was ever said.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: infidelGOD]
#1932791 - 09/19/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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True. Didn't Bush say the other day Saddam had no links to al-qaeda? Kinda puts all the conjecture in that article to bed.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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shakta
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
#1932808 - 09/19/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think so. I think he said specifically no known links to 9-11. I am sure more will be coming out about terrorist ties in the near future. I have seen reports of craploads of documents they are translating currently about this type of thing. Additionally the Kay report may come out next week. I can hardly wait to read it. If evidence is presented that their have indeed been no weapons in years I would support a full on Congressional Inquiry into how our intelligence could have been so wrong.
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infidelGOD
illusion
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932810 - 09/19/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, show me were they ever said there was a link between the two. They didn't though. Just because everyone chooses to believe something doesn't mean it was ever said
shakta, I never said that they actually said there was a link, they only made it appear that way, and from seeing the polls, it appears to have had the intended effect.
if that article was true, don't you think Bush would have used that as "evidence" to link Saddam and 9/11? they had no problem using forged documents as evidence so why not this? I guess even Bush has some standards for what constitutes good evidence.
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silversoul7
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932827 - 09/19/03 02:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: Damn it. If some crazy convict's word is good enough for you Bush Knew guys why can't I use this as evidence that Saddam knew? I don't know if the story is true or not, but if it is don't you think it is a bit to convenient. Which governments told us the day or month it was going to happen?
You keep mentioning this "crazy convict." Who the hell are you talking about?
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Edame
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
#1932833 - 09/19/03 02:39 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought that the Kay report had been shelved indefinitely?
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame". In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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shakta
Infidel
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1932912 - 09/19/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know I read that as well, but I have also heard that it is supposed to come out soon. I guess we will have to wait and see.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
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Posts: 1,617
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
#1933573 - 09/19/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 6 months ago) |
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I read something recently saying that we should look for it in the coming weeks. Ill see if I can hunt down the article.
--------------------
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Phred
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Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
#1935543 - 09/20/03 01:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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bumped for lysergic
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