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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Phred]
    #1930934 - 09/18/03 11:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Just out of curiousity..

Were you elected, like mods used to be, by the members of the shroomery? Or appointed by an administrator?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1931132 - 09/18/03 11:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I wont post all of the quotes from Bush saying that Saddam was a threat

Well, we had direct quoutes of Bush saying he was a serious threat and Rumsfield saying he was an immediate threat.

The fact that our right wing collegues would try to deny the administration's position because they didn't happen to use the word "imminent" is mind-boggling but sadly typical  :smirk:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1931151 - 09/19/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I think they have put forward an Al Qeada - Saddam link, but not a direct link to the attacks.

That's kinda what the art of propaganda is all about. It has to be believable on some level. The Nazi's never said "Hey everyone, we're going to put jews in gas ovens and smash babies heads against walls, do you agree with us?". The best propaganda is subtle. You drop hints, create general impressions.

I personally am one of the '70%' that think he at least knew about it before it happened.

I thought the 70% referred to those who thought it was involved?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1931221 - 09/19/03 12:23 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

PsiloKitten writes:

I dunno exactly where I was talking to you.

But you were talking about me. Or was the phrase "I dont appreciate other's comments that seem to infer that americans are somehow intellectually incompetenat because they dont embark on a continual quest for knowledge" aimed at someone else?

Movements with people who behave like you continuously fail because they alienate.

"Movements?" "People who behave like me?" LOL

Here's the deal -- I am not out dissenting or protesting or evangelizing or anything. I write my comments on a bulletin board -- one the vast majority of the world will never see. In a forum with maybe a few dozen regular contributors. Where people can skip by my posts if they so choose. If you perceive my behavior to be alienating, then I guess there's no danger you'll ever be co-opted into my "movement", is there? I'm no threat to you -- anything I say must be false because you find my style of writing irritating. The links I provide are not worth reading because I hold a strong opinion that there is such a thing as correct information and incorrect information. You are free to continue believing what you believe, so what's the problem?

Please tell me, just when was the last time you spoke to a regular Joe blow american, face to face?

Ten hours ago. He's from Wyoming. He and his wife both opposed the war. I know him pretty well... I've gone to dinner with him a few times this year. He's a funny guy with great taste in music. In the last week I've spoken face to face with about a dozen regular Joe Blow Americans, maybe more.

wtf do you know about what is going on here other then what you read on the internet?

Only what I saw for two weeks at the end of August on American TV, what I learn talking to regular Joe Blow Americans, and what I read in the occasional Time magazine or Miami Herald or New York Times that I get my hands on a few times a month. I haven't had a television of my own for about sixteen years now, so I have never seen a lot of the stuff people talk about here. Never seen Fox News, for example. Never heard Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter. Why do you ask?

Please tell me because Ive just went back and spent hours reading your posts...

Cool.

... and you honestly dont sound like you've got your finger on the pulse of America.

The comments I made about many people not thinking about what they read and see and hear are not restricted to Americans. They apply equally to most humans. Same with people believing what they want to believe. Americans are not unique in that regard.

I wont make assumptions and Id advise you to do the same in the future.

I have made no assumptions about you. I only respond to what you write.

So, they come off as Mr. Know it alls and accomplish what exactly? You can word your responses in ways that dont alienate people but still get your point across.

If people care more about getting all indignant than they care about the information I present, so be it.

I guess you havent ever been much of a making friends influencing people kind of guy, eh? Catch more flies with honey.. and so on and so forth.

Ah... assumptions. As it turns out, you are about as wrong as you could possibly be, but that's okay. The number of friends I have made and the degree of my influence don't alter the validity (or lack thereof) of what I post on this board. Those two factors of my life have no relevance at all to these posts.

It's a no brainer that people do not like to find out that they were wrong. Im guilty of it, you are guilty of it.. we all are. I dont understand how hard this is to grasp.

Ah. More incorrect assumptions. Actually, the only time I don't like finding out I was wrong is in a situation where a wrong decision of mine cost me time and money, or hurt someone. I have many times sincerely thanked people who have shown my thinking to be in error, because they saved me a lot of potential future grief.

Did you experience the whole climate or just read his words on a sheet of paper or computer screen?

I only had the opportunity to read his words. Oh -- and I did see one speech of his on TV about a year ago when I was in Canada. Everyone else who doesn't live in the US could pretty much sqay the same, I guess (and many who post here haven't bothered to do even that much). All I point out is that his words don't match people's recollections. I never said it was easy to read critically, to listen critically, to watch TV critically. I just said that almost everyone has the capacity to do so --if they choose to. Note that I have never even criticized them for not choosing to do so. People have busy lives, and a hell of a lot of them have precious little time to investigate stuff. You and I believe this stuff is important, so we spend more time on it than the average person does, and have a broader understanding of the issues than many people do. That is our choice, though.

Who are you to judge how someone takes something in the context of their life and experiences, here... in the country it was happening in? I can say it boggles my mind that you cant see the link.

Do you think this misreading of what people say is unique to America? I can assure you it isn't. I spent the first three and a half decades (roughly) of my life in Canada. I participated in the anti-Viet Nam war protests (yes, we had them in Canada, too), was a union shop steward for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers during the still-famous six week postal strike, marching alongside the Canadian Marxist-Leninist party. There's a picture of me holding one pole of a streetwide Marxist banner on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen newspaper. I was glued to the TV set during Watergate, I followed closely Canada's constitutional debates, NAFTA arguments, the whole Quebec Separatist boondoggle from the time martial law was declared in the early Seventies till the time of the latest referendum. When I go to Canada twice a year, I STILL watch the House of Commons Cable channel.

Guess what? People in Canada are (on the whole) no better at critical listening, critical reading, and critical TV watching than people in America. I will point out that Canadian politicians are every bit as adroit at spin management as Americans are. As I say, this business of missing what is really said is pretty much a universal phenomenon. Hell, it is illustrated plainly several times each day in this forum alone. The fact is that many people misread what others say. In a few cases this is because the people doing the writing are less than clear, but that is just not the case in the majority of the instances illustrated here.

If you choose not to believe that, you are of course free to do so.

Thnaks for your input. Have a nice day.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1931254 - 09/19/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I was nominated by a mod, vouched for by several other mods and admins, and since no one objected the Admins agreed to make me a mod if I could be persuaded to take the job. The mod who originally nominated me finally persuaded me to accept.

At times I wish I hadn't. Fortunately I have not yet had to recommend anyone be banned, I have had to edit just a single post (a "scat" post from some doofus who usually hangs out exclusively in OTD), and I have locked just one thread... maybe two. For the most part people in this forum behave themselves.

It has been a long time since moderators have been elected by the general membership. The process I described above has been the norm for quite a while now.

pinky


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #1931731 - 09/19/03 07:08 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I thought the 70% referred to those who thought it was involved?




It was. I am not sure if that is true or not. Since we have no evidence it is, I do not know. Again I do think he at the very least knew it was going to happen.

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OfflineDava
journeyman
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Belgium
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1931775 - 09/19/03 07:46 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


He did put his military on high alert just before it happened. Whether or not he was involved in financing it or planning it at all I don't know.




Why would he place his army on high alert anyway? As far as i know, America doesnt have a beaming machine for 200k soldiers. And i guess the iraqi troops could handle an attack by the troops who were present at the time of 9-11.

Besides, the world would never agree at an all-open attack on Iraq the days after 9-11 and nor would any american. The american government needed a buildup to the 2nd Gulf War. Both in personnel/goods as in getting enough americans supporting behind the war.

If you believe Saddam is involved because he placed his army on high alert, then you also should believe the conspiracy theories about 9-11.
Quote:


Who made a small fortune "shorting" airline and insurance stocks the day before Sept. 11?




What about this one? The person(s) who did this definetaly had to know about 9-11. (if you believe in Saddam being involved in 9-11 cause he placed his army on hig alert that is) However, they refuse to reveil the identity of the person(s). Is the government holding hands above some person(s)?



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"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
    #1931785 - 09/19/03 07:58 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

If you think Americans would not have supported attacking Saddam right after the attack you are mistaken. We were one angry group of people. Many called for nuclear retaliation. I was not one of these people, but I can understand their anger.

Saddam knew.

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OfflineDava
journeyman
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Belgium
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1931788 - 09/19/03 08:00 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Nucleair retaliation against Saddam for 9-11?
*shakes head*

Bush knew!
(cause tha makes at much sense as saddam knew)



--------------------
"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Dava]
    #1931813 - 09/19/03 08:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't say using nukes made any sense, I am just telling you that your assumption that Americans in general would not have supported an attack is not completely true. Your assumption that Saddam would not be more likely to know about it than Bush is kind of silly though. Saddam rallying his forces right before the attack is at least an indication that he knew about it.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1932071 - 09/19/03 10:33 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

What evidence do you have that Saddam put his "army" on "high alert" on Sep 10? Why the fuck would he do that? That's about as obvious as saying "I did it, please bomb me next".



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineDava
journeyman
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Belgium
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #1932139 - 09/19/03 11:15 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Saddam rallying his forces right before the attack is at least an indication that he knew about it.





Rumsfeld taking private jets instead of normal aircraft is also an indication.
Private investors who make a lot of money due to the attack the day before is also an indication.


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"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1932203 - 09/19/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Correlation does not equal causation, just because two events happen (in this case 9/11 & Saddam's army on 'high alert') does not mean that there is a link between them.

There's an article here that says that Bush's recent retraction was hardly covered by the press:

Quote:

Bush 9/11 Admission Gets Little Play
Story Doesn't Make Many Front Pages

By Seth Porges

NEW YORK -- Updated at 1:45 p.m. Eastern Standard Time

For months leading up this year's war on Iraq, the Bush administration implied that Saddam Hussein had a hand in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. The argument was well-received by Americans, and might have been the single leading factor behind public support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. An oft-cited poll conducted by The Washington Post last month revealed that 69% of Americans continue to believe it likely that Hussein was personally involved in 9/11.

No real evidence to support this has emerged, however, leading some (including E&P, just last week) to declare that the media had failed in its duty to correct the public misperception.

So when President George Bush admitted on Wednesday, for the first time, that there was "no evidence that Hussein was involved with the September 11th" attacks, one would assume that would be big news and an opportunity for the press to make up for past failings.

And according to some newspapers, it was a big story. The Los Angeles Times and Chicago Tribune (both owned by the Tribune Co.) ran front-page stories on the revelation Thursday. But an analysis of most major American newspapers found the story either buried deep within the paper -- or completely absent.

Of America's 12 highest-circulation daily papers, only the L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, and Dallas Morning News ran anything about it on the front page. In The New York Times, the story was relegated to page 22. USA Today: page 16. The Houston Chronicle: page 3. The San Francisco Chronicle: page 14. The Washington Post: page 18. Newsday: page 41. The New York Daily News: page 14.

The New York Post and The Wall Street Journal didn't mention it at all.

Among large papers outside of the top 12 that ran the news on Page One were The Boston Globe, The Seattle Times, and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

The story was even more dramatic because Bush's remarks came on the heels of an assertion to the contrary made by Vice President Dick Cheney Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press." When asked about the poll that shows Americans overwhelmingly believe Hussein was involved in 9/11, Cheney replied that he thinks "it's not surprising that people make that connection. ... If we're successful in Iraq then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."




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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
    #1932274 - 09/19/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Also, I found a link to a copy of a letter that Bush sent to Congress:

Quote:


Now and then

Now:

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Wednesday there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 ? disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq.

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al-Qaida ties," the president said. But he also said, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th."

Then:

Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate

March 18, 2003

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Sincerely,

GEORGE W. BUSH
(Emphasis added)




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #1932319 - 09/19/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
What evidence do you have that Saddam put his "army" on "high alert" on Sep 10? Why the fuck would he do that? That's about as obvious as saying "I did it, please bomb me next".






http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/wirq23.xml

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
    #1932339 - 09/19/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

What is your point Edame? It say including those nations who...

There is no restriction to nations or leaders that were not involved, and it says nothing about Saddam being linked. Were is the evidence that they linked Saddam directly to 9/11 to begin with?

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
    #1932352 - 09/19/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Heh,

That seems like a pretty direct link to 9/11 to me. I dunno, Im sure the cons will call us crazy.

However, remember.. that was actually put out in first draft, fed to the american people who said, yummy.. then fed to the international community who chewed it up and spit it back out. Then, that doc was revised, removing that section.


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1932370 - 09/19/03 12:37 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

The whole letter is in reference to Iraq specifically. Not only does it mention that military action was needed to protect the US against the 'threat' of Iraq, but it says that said action would be consistent with actions already taken "against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."

Why mention 9/11 in this letter about invading Iraq in the first place if there's no proof of a connection, why is it there?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (09/19/03 12:39 PM)

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: Edame]
    #1932391 - 09/19/03 12:41 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

You just made my point for me. The action would be consistent with actions already taken "against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."

That does not say Saddam was linked to 9/11. It may be a bit of a political thing to add that in there, but it was still the complete truth. We were going in there for regime change plain and simple. You all can read anything you want into it, but it still does not say it.

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OfflineDava
journeyman
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Belgium
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Rumsfeld sees no link between Iraq/9-11 [Re: shakta]
    #1932418 - 09/19/03 12:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/wirq23.xml




Two weeks before 9-11!
Then pls answer this question : do you think Rumsfeld was involved in the attacks?
And if you say no you are as biased as could be.
CAuse he started using private jets one month before the attack.


--------------------
"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."
- Timothy Leary

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