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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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1,000,000th pin set trouble Q
#19235426 - 12/06/13 07:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey, Before anyone tells me to the reading, I will tell you I have been on here reading several times a day for almost a week now. The subject is difficulty on establishing a pin set. I found a couple of incorrect practices, like running a fan to dry mushies in the grow room, but have a PF cake at 16 days that shows no sign of life. I figure explaining this in detail might help, but will be succinct. 1/2 pint cakes from MS syringe, roughly 8 weeks to fully colonize including 5-7 day final consolidation. Smelled good, dunked for 24hr. rolled. 30 qt SGFC 6 inches of perlite.
Fanning with electric fan directly on top of FC for 1-2 minutes every 3 hours. Sometimes up to 5 minutes fanning after misting 3 times daily, usually every 6-8 hours. Fine mist 2 feet away from chamber 10-20 sprays give or take.
But I got nothing guys! I usually see primordia within a week or two, this is weird for me. Things I have done differently this time around are using the electric fan for FAE as opposed to using the lid of the FC. And I am now fanning immediately after misting as opposed to fanning followed by an immediate mist, then fanning again within the following 3-5 hours cyclically.
The weather/temperature has changed a good deal too. Cakes colonized Mid September-Mid November when temps range from 35F-50F. Low 20's last week, Mostly in the teens and single digit days this week. BRRRRRRR! Have been running heater in adjacent room for cakes colonizing, but not in fruiting room until a few days ago.
What am I doing wrong? Am I impatient or is this stubborn mycelium? Never seems to take this long. Questions, comments, point and laugh? Thanks
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235929 - 12/06/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Someone??? Anybody??? Awwwwe.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235937 - 12/06/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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post a pic, other then that most of us are just gonna say wait
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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TheMustardTiger



Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 4,700
Loc: Sunnyvale Trailer Park
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235943 - 12/06/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bump. I'm interested in an educated response to this one.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: cronicr]
#19235952 - 12/06/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: post a pic, other then that most of us are just gonna say wait
that and a fan is not FAE. FAE is passive it's occuring multiple times an hour all by itself in a properly made SGFC. The fanning is only to remove the high humidity air and replace it with somewhat drier air so that the mist you just applied can get kickstarted on evaporation a simple fanning with the lid for 10 seconds would suffice.
Have a read through the first link in my signature and also post some pictures of the cakes and your fruiting chamber for optimal replies.
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Skinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 1,150
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: cronicr]
#19235957 - 12/06/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: post a pic, other then that most of us are just gonna say wait

but also - I assume you are using a SGFC?? (soz didn't read the OP properly )
Edited by Skinty (12/06/13 11:18 AM)
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Bucknaztee
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Shit the old lady's out I don't know how to use her camera/upload photos. I suck at life. How do you bump a thread? failing exponentially. photos later maybe. just went out and bought a shit hygrometer from bed bath n beyond reading 70 RH but just put in there 5 minutes ago...
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TheMustardTiger



Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 4,700
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235976 - 12/06/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You bump a thread by posting in the thread. Activity on a given thread will shoot it to the top of the list where everyone will see. I'm bumping as we speak.
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235979 - 12/06/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey bodhisatta thanks. Yeah I just take the top off and hold the fan over SGFC for a bit. My cakes were looking too wet (water pooling on the little top pile of verm, so I thought more agressive/even fanning might help.
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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235985 - 12/06/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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sheeeeeeeit I be bumpin too then playa!
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19235986 - 12/06/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The major pinning triggers are in order of importance, full colonization, a decrease in CO2 levels due to increased air exchange(not gas exchange which is minimal), a steady rate of evaporation from the substrate or casing layer, and lastly, light.
Hyphal knots form best in 100% humidity, but I didn't list that because it's not a pinning trigger, but rather an environmental condition that is necessary. That's why we use casing layers. The casing helps to provide the 100% humidity right at the surface of the substrate where the hyphal knots form.
I have seen no correlation with temperature drop whatsoever. In the summer, my growing chambers are 10 or more degrees warmer than the open shelves I incubate on due to the heating effects of the lights. Even with a temperature increase, I still get wall to wall pinsets, so I don't consider temp drop relevant at all to tropical species. Other growers disagree of course, but that's just my observation after many years.
Full colonization of the substrate is the number 1 pinning trigger. Full colonization can be when the mycelium reaches the physical border of the container they are in, or when they run up against a biological border, such as a contaminant species. Either way, they see they have colonized all of what is available to them, so they then enter the next phase, which is reproduction.
There must be evaporation of moisture from the substrate for pins to form. A waterlogged substrate will just sit there forever without pinning. Even in 99% humidity, as long as you provide fresh air, moisture will be evaporating away from the substrate, and this is necessary for pinning. We mist to replenish the lost moisture, then allow it to dry slightly before misting again. This keeps the moisture content high, and keeps the humidity at the casing surface near 100%, but at the same time provides the evaporation of moisture that is a very important pinning trigger.
During colonization, we provide very small holes in the jars or tubs for gas exchange. We want a high CO2 environment during colonization, because this prevents the mycelium from consuming all of the substrate. The mycelium colonizes the substrate, but doesn't 'eat it all up' due to the high CO2 levels. During fruiting, we remove the covers to provide air exchange, which is at a much higher level then the minimal gas exchange provided during colonization. This increase in air exchange lowers the CO2 levels, and is a major pinning trigger. At this time, the mycelium begins to consume the substrate it has previously colonized, and we notice during fruiting that our substrates pull away from the sides of the container. This is not due to moisture loss, but rather due to the mycelium 'eating' the substrate and turning it into CO2, a waste product. It is easily proved that this shrinking isn't related to moisture loss, because even when we dunk a bulk substrate, it doesn't return to its pre-flush size.
Last, but not by any means least is exposure to light. Light does much more than just tell the mushrooms which way to grow. There are mechanisms in the light that stimulate the formation of hyphal knots as well, and light at the higher end of the spectrum(blue) definitely, absolutely stimulate more hyphal knots(which grow into primordia, which then morph into pins) than light at the lower end of the spectrum(red) This does not mean to get a 'mood light' with a blue lens, but rather to select lights such as metal halide, or much more economical is 'natural daylight' fluorescent that emit light at around 6,000 kelvin to 7,500 kelvin depending on the brand. Cool white fluorescent emit light at around 5,000 kelvin and the 'red' incandescents emit light at around 3,000 kelvin. The higher the light temperature in kelvin, the more stimulatory it is to hyphal knot formation. I hope this helps. RR
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: cronicr]
#19236017 - 12/06/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wow thanks cronicr that's awesome...now gimme 10 minutes to read and reflect!
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TheMustardTiger



Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 4,700
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236034 - 12/06/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A lot of good info in that large post.
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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236048 - 12/06/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Any way to tell if a cake/sub is waterlogged? Other than it not doing shit lol. I have cakes that flushed once and were dunked again, they weigh 85-95 grams respectively. The two that were dunked and giving me problems weigh 110-125 g. Lets get technical peoples!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236050 - 12/06/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ZLeiterman said: Shit the old lady's out I don't know how to use her camera/upload photos. I suck at life. How do you bump a thread? failing exponentially. photos later maybe. just went out and bought a shit hygrometer from bed bath n beyond reading 70 RH but just put in there 5 minutes ago...
also if no one else replies to your thread you shouldn't bump your own thread within 24 hours. IE using a post to move it back to the top so people see it. Use the edit function to add things to your last post. This makes it fair to everyone who needs their question answered.
also your hygrometer is garbage a properly built SGFC will provide the correct RH. Cheap hygrometers belong in the trash they are notoriously unreliable.
for me water logged cakes are a feel you get after doing it a few times.
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Skinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236059 - 12/06/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ZLeiterman said: Any way to tell if a cake/sub is waterlogged? Other than it not doing shit lol. I have cakes that flushed once and were dunked again, they weigh 85-95 grams respectively. The two that were dunked and giving me problems weigh 110-125 g. Lets get technical peoples!
When I did cakes I just lifted them up and if they felt "light" figured they were drying out and if they were "heavy" that they had enough moisture or maybe too much
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236063 - 12/06/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm guessing if there are a few large water droplets on the side of cakes I am misting too much...
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236073 - 12/06/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right on guys. I have mostly success with cakes in the past, shit I just got a half OZ. dry of the other two cakes, really good for me. But Still a computer/internet illiterate simpleton. Peace!
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TheMustardTiger



Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 4,700
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: bodhisatta]
#19236075 - 12/06/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
ZLeiterman said: Shit the old lady's out I don't know how to use her camera/upload photos. I suck at life. How do you bump a thread? failing exponentially. photos later maybe. just went out and bought a shit hygrometer from bed bath n beyond reading 70 RH but just put in there 5 minutes ago...
also if no one else replies to your thread you shouldn't bump your own thread within 24 hours. IE using a post to move it back to the top so people see it. Use the edit function to add things to your last post. This makes it fair to everyone who needs their question answered.
also your hygrometer is garbage a properly built SGFC will provide the correct RH. Cheap hygrometers belong in the trash they are notoriously unreliable.
for me water logged cakes are a feel you get after doing it a few times.
Very true. Should have mentioned you shouldn't bump your own thread with 24 hours. No bueno
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236092 - 12/06/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I know that digi hygro is crap, but I got OCD bad man, and seeing some numbers digitally displayed will help me, even if they're lies lol! 82% and climbing!
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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236101 - 12/06/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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As I said, I didn't realize that was a faux pas to respond to your own thread, sorry. What does editing the post do for me though? That doesn't "legitimately" "bump" the thread, does it? Sorry wanna be a dick, I confuse.
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Bucknaztee
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Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236107 - 12/06/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry don't wanna be a dick I mean!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236109 - 12/06/13 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ZLeiterman said: Yeah I know that digi hygro is crap, but I got OCD bad man, and seeing some numbers digitally displayed will help me, even if they're lies lol! 82% and climbing!
in that case if you have ocd know that since the numbers are false representations of what's actually going on you're going to over compensate and perform corrective actions based on false premise and are more likely to fuck shit up.
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Fruiting Chamber A SGFC has 1/4" holes spaces 2 inches apart in a grid patten on all six sides. 4-6 inches of moist perlite. No attachments made to it with any extra things like humidifiers. Optimally the SGFC should be in the middle of a room. No fans should be run in the room with the SGFC, but a cracked window is OK. A humidifier in your house can help to raise the ambient RH but don't put it near your SGFC put it in the other corner of the room if you do decide to run a humidifier at all. The SGFC IMO should have at least 6-12 inches of room from any wall on all 6 sides. This includes finding some sort of raisers to elevate the SGFC off of the surface it's on. This is what can happen if you make your SGFC the right way. Here's what will happen if you do it the wrong way. You'll likely rage quit.
Misting and Fanning. This is a source of much grief and 100's of posts a week here. Misting and fanning is not at all complicated as it needs to be. In general you'll mist your cakes until they glisten(yes they can even with the verm on them) and then fan right after the mist. You can mist your cakes directly and you should. When you notice the cake is no longer glistening you can mist it again and then fan. This occurs on average of 3-5 times a day. Don't worry about sleeping or being gone 12 hours. Just do it when you're around and don't forget about it is all. Fanning is not FAE it's only purpose is to relive the high RH air so that the cakes can get a kickstart on evaporation.
FAE This is a phenomenon (Fresh air exchange) in a properly built SGFC this is constantly happening. The perlite is naturally cooler than the surrounding air this moves molecules closer to eachother as the lose kinetic energy. This creates low pressure which pulls air up through the bottom holes. As the air moves through the perlite it picks up humidity and keeps the chamber at or above 90%RH. This occurs naturally without the fanning and is why we like to have no fans in the room and is also why fanning after misting is not a replacement for FAE.
Quote:
Notahacker420 said: Fanning is not a replacement for constant FAE.
You would need to fan several times per hour.

This is an edit, Click edit post on your last post and you can add things like I'm doing. I'm adding this to take into account your new reply about asking about editing without having to post a new post. Edits will not bump your thread but you can add information like pictures or other questions
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (12/06/13 11:36 AM)
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Skinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 1,150
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: bodhisatta]
#19236132 - 12/06/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: in that case if you have ocd know that since the numbers are false representations of what's actually going on you're going to over compensate and perform corrective actions based on false premise and are more likely to fuck shit up.

In addition considering that whatever catastrophic thing you believe will happen if you do not carry out your obsessions or compulsions will only be disproved by not carrying out those obsessions and compulsions I recommend stop repeatedly posting in this thread and see what happens
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: bodhisatta]
#19236165 - 12/06/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Revelation-Fanning is NOT FAE?! That's what the holes are for?! So the row of holes along the top of the perlite and the row below i have taped up recently should be un-taped, brother?
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Bucknaztee
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236178 - 12/06/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fuck I'm getting therapy on top of mushroom growing advice for FREE, why would I stop now? Seriously, thanks guys, now go help somebody else! If you respond to this I will only reply!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236182 - 12/06/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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cause and effect are immediate, every second is a second chance to be who you want to be, a frantic mind is likely to lead to mistakes and mishaps, while a calm mind is likely to make skillful choices,
Quote:
ZLeiterman said: Revelation-Fanning is NOT FAE?! That's what the holes are for?! So the row of holes along the top of the perlite and the row below i have taped up recently should be un-taped, brother?
yes holes on all six sides, untape them the holes being taped is lowering your humidity and lowering your FAE. Did you read through all of my last posts I explicitly said fanning is not FAE like 3 times, in all 3 times ago.
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Bucknaztee
Stranger

Registered: 11/21/09
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: bodhisatta]
#19236216 - 12/06/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes you did, but I never got that before today, making YOUR information revelatory, bud. That's what I was looking for. Now to calm the mind with some mooney-Jane!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 1,000,000th pin set trouble Q [Re: Bucknaztee]
#19236223 - 12/06/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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good idea, I would do at least 3 marijuanas
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