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OfflinePiecefillpath247
Stranger and Stranger Still


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 417
Loc: Maybe
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
There is no escape from Samsara
    #19234929 - 12/06/13 02:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The ball is already set in motion without beginning or end.

The moment is both insignificant and crucial.

The moment is open, empty, directionless.

It seems to me we can't not be.

Opinions?


--------------------
"The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance"
-Alan Watts


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19235168 - 12/06/13 04:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i see it that there is no person that can separate itself from samsara in order to escape from samsara as liberation isn't for a person, it's liberation from the idea of being a person, liberation from the thought of limitation

when the idea of limitation no longer holds sway, then you see no duality, samsara is nivrana/nirvana is samsara

it can appear that we are an escapee but we only ever thought we were bound, if your very nature is freedom and you only ever thought otherwise, how could you ever have needed to escape from anywhere?

like you said you can't not be, you've always been, we limited ourselves through thought as being this or being that, when we were only ever just being


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/06/13 05:56 AM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19235569 - 12/06/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The cycle of life and death is fine as is.  Death defines and gives joy to life.  If we lived forever, life would be a tedious and repetitive exercise.

My sufferings are fine.  I know what it is to be "joyful" only because I know what it is to suffer.  My suffering defines my joy.  Without suffering, there would be no joy.

All in my opinion and experience.

(Apologies to any traditional Buddhists reading here.)


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OfflinePiecefillpath247
Stranger and Stranger Still


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 417
Loc: Maybe
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Chronic7]
    #19236443 - 12/06/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
when we were only ever just being




seems to me just being is also caught in Samsara.


--------------------
"The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance"
-Alan Watts


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19236486 - 12/06/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Piecefillpath247 said:
It seems to me we can't not be.





If there is no life after death, then at death we'll stop being. Current evidence points to having a functioning central nervous system is essential for having a functioning consciousness/self, so at death once our brains stop functioning, my guess is that we stop experiencing.


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OfflineSse
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Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 2,769
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19236628 - 12/06/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The word nirvana etymologically means extinction of thirst and the annihilation of suffering. Buddhist masters teach that within each of us there is always a fire. Sometimes this fire is quietly smoldering; other times it is raging out of control. This fire is caused by the friction of duality rubbing against itself, like two sticks.

This friction is generated by me(as subject) wanting other(as object) and the interaction between the two. This ever-present friction that irritates us blazes up into the fires of suffering. When we realize emptiness and perfect oneness with all, the fires of duality go out. When even the embers themselves are cool, when conflicting emotions are no longer burning us-this is nirvana, the end of dissatisfaction and suffering. This is liberation; this is bliss; this is true freedom."

"We are the fire starters; we are the troublemakers; our clouded vision and limited understanding creates the duality of subject and object, grasper and grasped."

"when there is nothing wanting, there is nothing working against anything. There is no grasping at anything; there is no grasper and nothing being grasped. There are no karmic sticks rubbing together igniting these fiery conflicting passions; there is no clinging to sights or sounds or smells or tastes or touches. There is just the unimpeded, spontaneous, free experiencing of things just as they are, moment after miraculous moment. This is the natural great perfection."

"Nirvana, the end of all our troubles, the extinction of this fire of craving, is just on the other side of each moment of craving, of hanging on. That's where the great "letting go" comes in and must take place. Then ultimate peace is right there; total fulfillment, wholeness, the end of all craving, luminous and profound; simple not complicated; unfathomable, bottomless, yet inexhaustibly rich."

"The wise mind understands the limits in hanging on to that which is transient and dreamlike. The awakened mind is free flowing, natural, and well rounded. It's like Teflon-nothing sticks. On the other hand, the unawakened, ordinary mind is rigid, limited and sticky like flypaper; the ordinary mind has corners and sharp jagged edges on which ideas get caught, hanging us up."

"Dualistic thinking is like Velcro; it takes two to tangle. Unitary vision is more like a crystal through which all forms of light can pass unimpeded."

"Let your mind flow, free from attachment to your belongings, ideas, agendas, schedule, passion-your very self identity, and develop the wisdom, self-detachment, and equanimity that realizes that all things are essentially equal."(interconnected notes in the same cosmic symphony)


"As we think, so we become."

"We can change the entire atmosphere. We can loosen up and dissolve the dualism between light and dark, good and bad, positive and negative, wanted and unwanted circumstances. We take in the bad, and we give away all that is desirable."

"you may have some difficulties as you try to visualize giving away all your advantages, assets, and delights to people you dislike as well as people you care about."

"As you explore your inner resources, you will discover that you have an abundance, more positive resources than you can possibly imagine."


(rushen)
"analytical contemplations that employ the rational powers of the mind; in these contemplations we use the well-honed, focused mind like a sharp tool to penetrate further into reality."

"discerning the difference between"-traditional images are separating the wheat from the chaff or a kernel from its husk. To distinguish between the dualisms that confront and confuse us; between samsara and nirvana; between bondage and freedom; between small mind and Big Mind, or Buddha-mind; between finite conceptual mind and infinite awareness; between finite self and our true Buddha-nature."

"Lets penetrate further into the heart and soul, and perceive the essential nature of mind. We can use investigative self-inquiry to unmask our selves and deconstruct the illusory prison that ego built, thus gaining insight and the wisdom of awareness."

"Who am I" is an open-ended inquiry that takes us beyond thoughts and mere concepts. This is one of the very best practices to help you get to know your true nature, beyond your illusory conventional self. Recognizing our natural mind, Buddha-nature, helps us live freely in the present moment, without preconceptions about what we'll get out of it."

"Let's discern the difference between the ego, which strategizes and manipulates, and the spontaneous natural heart-mind."

"Mind is the knower. Consciousness animates the sense doors, perceiving all that transpires through the gates of the senses. What is the essence or nature of this mind? Peer into the nature of your own mind in this very present moment. Know the knower. See the seer, and be free."

"Is it always the same or simply a stream of consciousness, a collection of various mind-moments and mental events-like the ever-changing weather, dependent on fluctuating circumstances and conditions?"

"In a moment of no thought, how is it, and what is it? When one dies, where does it go? Can you tell me? Can you say? Where do your thoughts come from? Where do they go when they pass on? Where does thinking stem from? Try to say something about this. The effort could be extremely revealing. You could have a close encounter with yourself."

Awakening the Buddha Within by Lama Surya Das


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/06/13 01:55 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: all this beauty]
    #19237194 - 12/06/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
The cycle of life and death is fine as is.  Death defines and gives joy to life.  If we lived forever, life would be a tedious and repetitive exercise.

My sufferings are fine.  I know what it is to be "joyful" only because I know what it is to suffer.  My suffering defines my joy.  Without suffering, there would be no joy.

All in my opinion and experience.

(Apologies to any traditional Buddhists reading here.)




imo there are sufferings and then there are sufferings and they are seriously different from each other.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
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Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago Flag
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19237258 - 12/06/13 04:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I'd agree.

No one is born into Samsara because there is no-one to be born...

yet here I am hopelessly suffering in it anyways. :lol:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlinenobody2
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Registered: 05/12/12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19238779 - 12/06/13 10:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Piecefillpath247 said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
when we were only ever just being




seems to me just being is also caught in Samsara.




Seems the same way to me...that any experience, however subtle, entails some inclination or habitual tendency. Without some degree of preference/inclination, there would be no basis to notice any one thing over another--a total lack of contrast. The end of samsara would truly be nothingness. From that perspective, something like the following would be a real overstatement (esp. with that word "miraculous" smacking of duality):

"There is just the unimpeded, spontaneous, free experiencing of things just as they are, moment after miraculous moment. This is the natural great perfection."


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19239805 - 12/07/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Piecefillpath247 said:
Quote:

The Chronic said:
when we were only ever just being




seems to me just being is also caught in Samsara.




if your being transcendental saying that the idea of being is a phenomena so must not be attached to as a concept then i agree

when i look for the nature of being i find that it isn't caught and can never be caught in anything, the concepts that revolve around being, i am this, i am that, and emotions, can be caught or entwined with other things we perceive, but not the presence of being itself which is completely innocent

it appears that being is appearance, as without appearances what being would there be to speak of, all i know is if i dive within whatever that sense of being is, that sense of life within me, self-awareness, if i really look for it i can't find 'being' as an entity, yet its undeniably here

to see how everything comes from nothing, self creation is self imagination, a dream


--------------------


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OfflinePiecefillpath247
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Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 417
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Chronic7]
    #19240224 - 12/07/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Totally agree brother

it is from the (no)thingness that something-ness is able to arise. it seems that (no)thingness cannot be "possessed", always just out of reach, but at the same time as (no)thingness is the root of the desire to attain it we already have (no)thingness. As in this is the result of trying to attain (no)thingness. It is the (no)thingness that enables us to be.

and because we are, we are samsara.

conceivable we could "let the sediment settle from the water" and stop chasing our tail, desire. However. It seems to me at this moment in time, because we are currently (illusion or not) we will always return to being. and probably since we return to being we will return to non-being. and since being arises from non-being we will return to being. seems to be cyclical from my perspective. one process, infinitely repeating itself, with a infinite number of masks.


--------------------
"The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance"
-Alan Watts


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19240503 - 12/07/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Piecefillpath247 said:
seems to be cyclical from my perspective. one process, infinitely repeating itself, with a infinite number of masks.



Yes.  And the search for "release" from the cycle only serves to reinforce the cycle.

This is why, in my opinion, the most illuminated thinkers caution against the hunt for "enlightenment."


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OfflineSse
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: nobody2]
    #19241167 - 12/07/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Seems the same way to me...that any experience, however subtle, entails some inclination or habitual tendency. Without some degree of preference/inclination, there would be no basis to notice any one thing over another--a total lack of contrast. The end of samsara would truly be nothingness. From that perspective, something like the following would be a real overstatement (esp. with that word "miraculous" smacking of duality):

"There is just the unimpeded, spontaneous, free experiencing of things just as they are, moment after miraculous moment. This is the natural great perfection."


Or an understatement hehe... as they say words/conceptions do no justice. Thoughts/concepts themselves represent delusion.

"As long as there is an idea, there is no reality." - Thich Nhat Hanh

"Wisdom does not consist of trying to wrest the good from the evil but in learning to "ride" them as a cork adapts itself to the crests and troughs of the waves."
-Bruce Lee

"The greatest relief is when we break through the barriers of sign and touch the world of signlessness, nirvana. Where should we look to find the world of no signs? Right here in the world of signs. If we throw away the water, there is no way for us to touch the suchness of water. We touch the water when we break through the signs of the water and see its true nature of interbeing. There are three phases - water, not water, true water. True water is the suchness of water. Its ground of being is free from birth and death. When we can touch that, we will not be afraid of anything."

"Signs are instruments for our use, but they are not absolute truth, and they can mislead us. "Wherever there is a sign, there is deception, illusion."

"Perceptions often tell us as much about the perceiver as the object of perception. Appearances can deceive."

"as long as we are caught by signs- round, square, solid, liquid, gas- we will suffer. Nothing can be described in terms of just one sign. But without signs, we feel anxious. Our fear and attachment come from our being caught in signs. Until we touch the signless nature of things, we will continue to be afraid and to suffer. Before we can touch H20, we have to let go of signs like squareness, roundness, hardness, heaviness, lightness, up, and down. Water is, itself, neither square nor round nor solid. When we free ourselves from signs, we can enter the heart of reality. But until we can see the ocean in the sky, we are still caught by signs."

"If you think that water is only water, that it cannot be the sun, the earth, or the flower, you are not correct. When you can see the water is the sun, the earth, and the flower, that just by looking at the sun or the earth you can see the water, this is "the signlessness of signs."
-Thich Nhat hanh

"True thusness is the substance of thought and thought is the function of true thusness. To think of thusness, to define it in thought is to defile it."

"Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage. Truth is outside of all patterns."

"Where there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. Life is a relationship to the whole."

"The man who is clear and simple does not choose. What is, is. Action based on an idea is obviously the action of choice and such action is not liberating. On the contrary, it creates further resistance, further conflict. Assume pliable awareness."
-Bruce Lee

The Heart of the Buddha's Teachingby Thich Nhat Hanh
Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee




--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/07/13 02:58 PM)


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Sse]
    #19244485 - 12/08/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineSse
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: mt cleverest]
    #19245504 - 12/08/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"The teachings of impermanence and nonself were offered by the Buddha as keys to unlock the doors of reality. We have to train ourselves to look in a way that we know that when we touch one thing, we touch everything. We have to see that the one is in the all and the all is in the one. We touch not only the phenomenal aspects of reality but the ground of being. Things are impermanent and without self. They have to undergo birth and death. But if we touch them very deeply, we touch the ground of being that is free from birth and death, free from permanence and impermanence, self and nonself.

"The Buddha said, "There is no birth and no death, no being and no nonbeing," and he offered us impermanence, nonself, interbeing and emptiness to discover the true nature of reality."

"No idea" means no wrong idea, no wrong conception. It does not mean no mindfulness. Because of mindfulness, when something is right, we know it's right, and when something is wrong, we know it's wrong."

"We are practicing sitting meditation, and we see a bowl of tomato soup in our mind's eye, so we think that is wrong practice, because we are suppose to be mindful of our breathing. But if we practice mindfulness, we will say, "I am breathing in and I am thinking about tomato soup." That is Right Mindfulness already. Rightness or wrongness is not objective. It is subjective"

"relatively speaking, there are right views and there are wrong views. But if we look more deeply we see that all views are wrong views. No view can ever be the truth. It is just from one point; that is why it is called a "point of view." If we go to another point, we will see things differently and realize that our first view was not entirely right. Buddhism is not a collection of views. It is a practice to help us eliminate wrong views. The quality of our views can always be improved. From the viewpoint of ultimate reality, Right View is the absence of all views."

"When we begin the practice, our view is a vague idea about the teachings. But conceptual knowledge is never enough. The seeds of Right View, the seed of Buddhahood, are in us, but they are obscured by so many layers of ignorance, sorrow, and disappointment. We have to put our views into practice. In the process of learning, reflecting, and practicing, our view becomes increasingly wise, based on our real experience. When we practice Right Mindfulness, we see the seed of Buddhahood in everyone, including ourselves. This is Right View. Sometimes it is described as the Mother of All Buddhas, the energy of love and understanding that has the power to free us. When we practice mindful living, our Right View will blossom, and all the other elements of the path in us will flower, also."

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching Thich Nhat Hanh


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


Edited by Sse (12/08/13 03:25 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19246330 - 12/08/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Piecefillpath247 said:
The ball is already set in motion without beginning or end.

The moment is both insignificant and crucial.

The moment is open, empty, directionless.

It seems to me we can't not be.

Opinions?



Don't forget Christ killing.

We like to create heroes to moralize to us. Then kill them. Literally. And then weep over them.

The decadence of history needs someone to fill the part on the stage.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineLittleDaddy
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19247486 - 12/08/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You escape Samsara from ridding yourself from the attachment to life.

If you become one with your mind then you reach nirvana. I don't know if you have to reach nirvana alive to rid the attachment of life or if you can rid the attachment of life at the moment of death and reach nirvana that way, but it sounds reasonable.

I haven't meditated well enough on these concepts and I'm honestly not comfortable trying to describe what happens after death, but this is what I've picked up from my readings of Buddhism - I'm also not sure if this is an accurate interpretation, but it's what I came to accept as reasonable.


--------------------
The hotter the battle, the sweeter Jah victory.
Put the heathen's back upon the wall.


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OfflineSse
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: LittleDaddy]
    #19249893 - 12/09/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"In his first Dharma talk, the Buddha cautioned his disciples not to be attached to either bhava or abhava, being or nonbeing, because bhava and abhava are just constructs of the mind. Reality is somewhere in between."

"if we say there is no attachment, it means there will be no being, that we are aspiring to abhava. But this is exactly what the Buddha did not want. If you say that the purpose of the practice is to destroy being in order to arrive at nonbeing, this is entirely incorrect. With nonattachment, we see both being and nonbeing as creations of our mind, and we ride the wave of birth and death. We don't mind birth. We don't mind death. We know that nothing is born and nothing can die. We have the wisdom of no-birth and no-death. We know that there is birth, old age, and death, but we also know that these are only waves on which bodhisattavas ride. Birth is okay and death is okay, if we know that they are only concepts in our mind. Reality transcends both birth and death."

"In the eleventh century in Vietnam, a monk asked his meditation master, "Where is the place beyond birth and death?" The master replied, "In the midst of birth and death." If you abandon birth and death in order to find nirvana, you will not find nirvana. Nirvana is in birth and death. Nirvana is birth and death. It depends on how you look at it. From one point of view, it is birth and death. From another, it is nirvana."

"let us not present the teaching of the Buddha as an attempt to escape from life and go to nothingness or nonbeing."

"Wondrous Being is the basis of being born without getting caught in wrong ideas about birth and death. The leaf has the appearance of being born and dying, but it is not caught in either. The leaf falls to the earth without any idea of dying, and is born again by decomposing at the foot of the tree and nourishing the tree. The cloud has the appearance of dying in becoming rain, but it feels no sorrow or pain. There are people who suffer when they see a leaf die. In the age of Romanticism, there were young people who picked up fallen flower petals, buried them, wept, and wrote epitaphs. When a leaf is born, we can sing Happy Continuation. When a leaf falls, we can sing Happy Continuation. When we have awakened understanding, birth is continuation and death is continuation, birth is an appearance and death is an appearance. People also appear to be born, grow old, and die."

"For something to exist there needs to be a continuous succession, moment after moment."

"If we put a frog on a plate, it will jump right off. If you do not practice steadily, you'll become like a frog on a plate. But when you decide to stay in one place until your practice fully develops, we can say that you have reached the state of "froglessness" and have begun to practice "continuity."

"When we are in touch with things by means of the mind of love, we do not run away or seek, and that is the basis of freedom. Aimlessness takes the place of grasping. When we have freedom, what seemed to be suffering becomes Wondrous Being. It can also be called the Kingdom of God or the Pure Land. Someone who is free has the ability to establish a Pure Land, a place where people do not need to run."

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"


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Invisiblecez
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: Piecefillpath247]
    #19250209 - 12/09/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Escape the body and Samsara is no more :cool:


...I think...


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: There is no escape from Samsara [Re: cez]
    #19251180 - 12/09/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Escape the body and Samsara is no more :cool:


...I think...



Samsara is preferable, I think, to escaping the body.

Without the earthly wants and lusts that accompany Samsara, one cannot fully appreciate a Dunkin' Donut.

And I would rather have a Dunkin' Donut than liberation from the cycle of life, suffering, and death, actually.


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