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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
#19233513 - 12/05/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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the only question that matters about religion now concerns how well they work. does it improve your life to believe that you're part of god's chosen people and that everyone else is going to hell when the world ends oh just about any day now? i don't think so. but if it does then more power to that person. maybe being born again is keeping someone out of a life of crime and slamming dope. who knows? besides, approaching any religious tradition from an outsider, skeptical stance just pisses everyone off.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19233518 - 12/05/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.
before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy and before that hermetics. we were bashing things together for a long time, with the belief that something new will happen, and it continues to this day.
all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] 1
#19233525 - 12/05/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.
before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy.
all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.
Of course, but the leap from "god did it" to where we are now is pretty goddamn significant.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19233536 - 12/05/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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yeah, but i'm just saying... it's not an end all be of science, to say "God don't exist none, foo".
it's just an open ended question... some people find peace or relevance in that question... some people in these days are still living as if they were 18th century minutemen, and they think that's the "way to be". just because they're far far away from "rationality" doesn't mean they are completely devoid of it.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] 2
#19233561 - 12/05/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.
before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy and before that hermetics. we were bashing things together for a long time, with the belief that something new will happen, and it continues to this day.
all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.
right. but thinking people have always been able to reconcile their spiritual lives with the intellectual world. it's easy - and foolish - to think that all religious people are simple, superstitious and whatnot but that just isn't the case in the grand scheme.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
#19233571 - 12/05/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.
so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.
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VivaLaMushie
RIP LS :(



Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 15,711
Loc: Switzerland
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19233574 - 12/05/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm not religious at all, but I believe in reincarnation.
What does that make me?
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dontknow
It's all in the reflex


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: VivaLaMushie]
#19233581 - 12/05/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Religious
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The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14
“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of Life’s coming attractions.” Albert Einstein
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JesusIsLord
Jesus freak


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19233587 - 12/05/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Rationale is hardly subject to belief.
There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.
When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.
How do you know that you know?
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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: VivaLaMushie]
#19233601 - 12/05/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
VivaLaMushie said: I'm not religious at all, but I believe in reincarnation.
What does that make me?
a Buddhist or Hindu belief is of that of reincarnation... but as any Buddhist will tell you, Buddhism isn't really a religion, but just a way of telling and perceiving of the world... and Hinduism is so old and shit... i think it's ok, that they made a whole bunch of story stuff to make people think more, back in the day... and more to my point, to have beliefs doesn't make one religious. you have to be pious to be truly religious... most people aren't even; so alot of people who say they are religious are fooling themselves if they can't be totally pious and in service to their deities. (the ones with ritual sacrifice and shit are the ones that mainly died out, now that tells you something... fear. people and fear.)
being religious is like wearing a cape tunic and thinking you can be invisible or that you can garner great power from robes and garment.
it's only useful for people who really have an edge in the fight against evil; which in terms of people, is very few and far between.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19233615 - 12/05/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.
so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.
he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
#19233620 - 12/05/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
JesusIsLord said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Rationale is hardly subject to belief.
There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.
When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.
How do you know that you know?
Because I have a pretty intimate relationship with my brain.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19233632 - 12/05/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
#19233636 - 12/05/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Daniel Dennett. This is what he does, researching the roles and structures religion provides He may be an outspoken atheist, but he's not convinced getting rid of religion is a good idea.
Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.
so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.
he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.
Unless you had standing with the church, people who proposed heretical explanations for natural phenomena didn't fare very well.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
#19233745 - 12/05/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.
so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.
he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.
yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.
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JesusIsLord
Jesus freak


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#19233766 - 12/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
JesusIsLord said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Rationale is hardly subject to belief.
There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.
When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.
How do you know that you know?
Because I have a pretty intimate relationship with my brain.
How can you know there are laws about the universe which are constant and unwavering because you believe you have an intimate relationship with your brain?
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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Edited by JesusIsLord (12/05/13 08:31 PM)
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19233767 - 12/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.
god's been redefined perpetually throughout the history of thought. redefining him again to fit the world would be business as usual.
Quote:
koods said: Unless you had standing with the church, people who proposed heretical explanations for natural phenomena didn't fare very well.
true, it was a double edged sword. but it was a different time. and that doesn't change the fact that, for as much as it did to hinder scientific progress, the church also fostered it. not a fan of daniel dennett myself.
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.
i gotcha. sorry man, brain drain. long semester.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#19233777 - 12/05/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.
that's missing the point though. though you can argue that Radiation isn't a deity... you could also argue that people had a misconception about various things, and related them to God. now that we know, it's radiation... the devotional properties of our knowing of it's "god-likeness" rebounds into more scientific forethought on the subject. one mans God is another man's science and mystery. could be looked at as if every is God, so yeah, maybe religious people seem a bit "out of place", but does that make their thinking so wrong, to believe that God is those very things we couldn't define before our knowledge came to fruition?
i'm not saying people are more "right" for being religious... i'm just saying that they're choosing to look for meaning beyond what's presentable, because that's what's always helped us (as humans) pull through.
it might not have the same significance as it once did, but who are we to judge? before, the kind of divination one would "receive" from such knowledge would be that of the kind that someone receives when they pull a fuckin' Einstein... they just made some conclusions that helped everyone out, for the most part, and they created more questions then answers too, of course, but they also solved a problem or created solutions to things that other's couldn't. of course people back in the day would equate that to God. the unexplainable has always been attributed to God. God is just a placeholder for the unknowable; and people have faith that that which we don't know won't horribly deter the planets future endeavors with a giant boot. sure it's fear... but it's a healthy fear of the unknown that keeps us striving for more... whether you're a scientist or a religious person. we're all striving the same thing, only scientific people take it upon themselves to "do the problem solving" while religious people just "hope and pray" that they can; without shaking them up too much; because it IS an older way of thinking.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19233938 - 12/05/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.
so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.
he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.
yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.
Evolution.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
#19233993 - 12/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
akira_akuma said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.
that's missing the point though. though you can argue that Radiation isn't a deity... you could also argue that people had a misconception about various things, and related them to God. now that we know, it's radiation... the devotional properties of our knowing of it's "god-likeness" rebounds into more scientific forethought on the subject. one mans God is another man's science and mystery. could be looked at as if every is God, so yeah, maybe religious people seem a bit "out of place", but does that make their thinking so wrong, to believe that God is those very things we couldn't define before our knowledge came to fruition?
i'm not saying people are more "right" for being religious... i'm just saying that they're choosing to look for meaning beyond what's presentable, because that's what's always helped us (as humans) pull through.
it might not have the same significance as it once did, but who are we to judge? before, the kind of divination one would "receive" from such knowledge would be that of the kind that someone receives when they pull a fuckin' Einstein... they just made some conclusions that helped everyone out, for the most part, and they created more questions then answers too, of course, but they also solved a problem or created solutions to things that other's couldn't. of course people back in the day would equate that to God. the unexplainable has always been attributed to God. God is just a placeholder for the unknowable; and people have faith that that which we don't know won't horribly deter the planets future endeavors with a giant boot. sure it's fear... but it's a healthy fear of the unknown that keeps us striving for more... whether you're a scientist or a religious person. we're all striving the same thing, only scientific people take it upon themselves to "do the problem solving" while religious people just "hope and pray" that they can; without shaking them up too much; because it IS an older way of thinking.
God is a placeholder, but not for the unknowable, but the yet to be known.
God is an ever decreasing cause of mysterious phenomena. The more we learn, the less we attribute to mythology. Is that not more reason to abandon that line of reasoning altogether?
If I come to you and say x y and z exist because of my omnipotence, and you figure out that x and y are because of things I couldn't possibly control, how devoted are you to the belief that I made z happen?
It's not only the mystery though that adds to the delusion, it's the euphoric reinforcement that you're important, and that all the problems in your life are inconsequential, and that after your meager existence youll live forever in an eternal paradise. It's an anti depressant.
And as far the "who cares if it makes people feel better" claim, sure, it improves some lives. I could write an encyclopedia on the negatives of religion. People shouldnt need a gun to their head to do good. Making the world a better place for humanity should be more than enough. Have faith in people, in society. Not a make believe superman who really isn't all that super to begin with.
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