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Surreal
Tough puffin' wizard


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 13
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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True breeding mushrooms
#19229885 - 12/05/13 02:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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How many generations It will take until a mushroom breeds true from spore?
Now I understand that most people will work with isolations of an ideal specimen and that is great! But in the case, for example, a desirable trait rears its head and spores are collected from that specimen. Then multi-spore inoculations are done. How many generations will I chase the desirable trait until it becomes fixed into the majority of future inoculations?
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,338
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19229900 - 12/05/13 02:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is like asking how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19229903 - 12/05/13 02:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mushrooms don't work that way. If you want an isolated strain, create one and keep it on master slants for many years. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Surreal
Tough puffin' wizard


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 13
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19231093 - 12/05/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Isolations are clearly the most efficient way to to pin down exactly what you are looking for. It is an excellent method and commercially viable.
But if someone had an isolate that, for example drops red spores, has very little pigment, and looks strikingly like a penis. That person will be set for production except when they are ready to share a print derived from that isolate. The results are all over the place as expected from multi spore. Maybe the mycologyst wil get lucky and not have to search for too long to find a great isolate for them self.
Ok now I understand genetics well enough to know that there are nearly infinite possible outcomes. There are also likely outcomes if certian genetics are present in higher concentrations, they are more likely to occur. So if I have a red spore variety, but it only produces red spore prints 25% of the time then do I say to myself " Aw fuck, Fucking randomness right? No way to control this wild motherfucker". Then go back to my pertis and slants? I would think if you take it into furtur generations the concentration of desired genetics will increase. Therefore bringing up your percentage until ultimately, through inbreeding even recessive traits will show up most of the time.
I am actually surprised that this practice is not more widely accepted in this community as a development strategy. Although there is evidence that it does take place on some level. I would assume that is why certain varieties (PE for example) breed true and most of the others are a crapshoot. Because someone worked it until it bred true.
So sure maybe there is no magic number to how many generations it takes, maybe it is unknown, or not interesting enough for people to follow through with. I guess that's why I ask.
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Surreal
Tough puffin' wizard


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 13
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19233374 - 12/05/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for the responses.
Quote:
Stromrider said: This is like asking how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop 
Strom the wise owl said 3 licks, but come on owl. I always preferred Blow pops anyways.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Mushrooms don't work that way. If you want an isolated strain, create one and keep it on master slants for many years. RR
RR I now you are right about the isolated strain and it is sound advice that I will follow. Although I am still not convinced that mushrooms don't work that way. I still believe they do, just different than plants or animals do. Sounds like a fun project to try anyways so I'm going to. If it turns out I was wrong, thats fine too. So if anyone has any experience or insight on this please feel free to share.
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TheUnknownPoet
Stranger



Registered: 11/14/12
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19233497 - 12/05/13 07:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, You basically need to simulate natural selection to bring out the desirable traits you want. ([sic] artificial selection)
This takes hundreds of thousands of generations, (Evolution takes a LOOOONNNGGGG TIME), and you won't live long enough to do it,
so people just stick with clones.
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Surreal
Tough puffin' wizard


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 13
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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True evolution is a long, mysterious process. But I think fixing traits through selective inbreeding should be able to happen within our lifetime. Here is a quote from Workman from an old thread after he had created A.P.E.
Quote:
Actually, that is pretty close but I am not back crossing back to the albino parent. I just did the one original cross and then I am just doing multispore innoculations for a few generations with selection of promising looking mushrooms. I am thinking I was just incredibly lucky with my selections to get pretty much exactly what I was looking for in just 3 generations.
3 ms generations away from the original cross and the ideal specimen presented itself and was isolated. I don't know how many more generations passed before you could consistently get that ideal specimen to come from ms. The fact that APE is a strain that was created less than 10 years ago and bred through ms selections, and people currently get the desired traits from multi spore inoculations. I think that gives validity to this theory and also says a lifetime should be enough time to make it happen.
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19234160 - 12/05/13 09:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Surreal said: True evolution is a long, mysterious process.
I too have wondered how in hundreds of thousands of years these things have grown, but in the last 20 or so, some of the novelty strains happened, and are stabilized.
Much like dogs (Canis lupus familiaris), a cube is a cube....except for Penis envy......
SO we come to the discussion of where a stabilized strain of mutations derived from...
I figure In my mind that IF we managed to create most dog breeds in the last 200 years, and some stabilized cube varieties in the last 10-20, than we are on the right track to creating more stabilized strains. Cubes are different than dogs obviously. The last time I ate dog, I did not experience euphoria, nor thanking that the ceiling is not purple (Or is it).
I would imagine that if you found a trait worth perpetuating, you could take a print and do MS grows EACH time with looking for specific traits.
I like you agree that it seems odd that MS grows are only to get clone fruits. If traits can be identified, and limited (as the PE strains show) there is a benefit to limited genetic selection. It may take more than a human lifetime however.....
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Psilicon
Really Nice Guy


Registered: 08/26/12
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19234216 - 12/05/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree that it's farcical to claim that any species is immune to the pressures of selection. But many of the desirable traits in cubensis are multifactorially inherited, which means that even with a static environment there are polygenic effects with a large number of contributing alleles, and just to make things more annoying many fungi have a tendency to just overwrite alleles with other copies of another allele located somewhere else in their DNA.
So, assuming you pick a trait that can be easily identified and quantified, and is polygenic in nature, assuming you're very careful and everything goes according to plan, it still all depends on luck. If it's not polygenic and everything goes according to plan, you can have a homozygote in just a couple of generations, just like in humans.
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Dark76


Registered: 07/14/13
Posts: 121
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Psilicon]
#19235254 - 12/06/13 05:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's not that selection does not work. The issue is that it becomes exceedingly difficult. I doubt an amateur mycologist would have access the equipment or the capital required to even attempt such an endeavor.
Here are links to a few scholarly articles on the challenges:
Trends in Mushroom Cultivation and Breeding
Breeding Mushrooms: State of the Art
Training Manual on Mushroom Cultivation Technology
There are books on that big bookseller site that discuss breeding:
Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms
Mushroom Biology: Concise Basics And Current Developments
Given the frugal nature of most users here, I doubt many will be hurrying to purchase them.
The complexity of the task is not small, so I would guess that calculating the number of "generations" asked in the initial post would be intractable.
Edited by Dark76 (12/06/13 05:39 AM)
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Surreal
Tough puffin' wizard


Registered: 11/23/13
Posts: 13
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Dark76]
#19238092 - 12/06/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Meh. I just wrote a huge rant full of jibberish responding to all and expanding on this concept but it disappeared before I could post. I guess it wasn't meant to be. We will probably get to it eventually anyways.
But excellent points and info regardless.
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Moorning Due
been know to derp


Registered: 10/08/13
Posts: 8,061
Loc: ether jet of existence
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Re: True breeding mushrooms [Re: Surreal]
#19238260 - 12/06/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hit some myc with some random gamma radiation. Maybe you can speed things up a bit... :P
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Psilicon
Really Nice Guy


Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 7,057
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Quote:
Moorning Due said: Hit some myc with some random gamma radiation. Maybe you can speed things up a bit... :P
That's cheating...
...but I wholeheartedly approve.
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