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Offlineskatealex2
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Rational reasons to be religious....?
    #19232010 - 12/05/13 04:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?


I have heard some level headed ideas but honestly to date I can't say it stands up to deep scrutiny.  I understand some concepts for believe in a higher power - one being the complexity and odds of a world coming together that works like it does but there are also a lot of ways to view that and say that is how evolution works.

I've also heard the idea that something doesn't come from nothing so what started the world?

On the other hand in my experiences of religious services I can't honestly I've seen it go much farther than the way people believe in it that causes an effect on them.  I'm more agnostic overall personally, but religion hasn't sold me too much, even more so the mainstream American religions.   

Also when any religion hates on groups of people like gay and lesbians they lose me right there and I lose respect for people who follow that part of religion.  The logic behind that makes no sense-  If God created people in his image as religions say then surely it shouldn't discriminate based on your sexuality.  I never saw in the bible where it said God loves everyone except for gay, bi and lesbian people. :hypnotic:

Also why do people pray to Jesus over God, if God is the creator isn't he who people would be praying to?  :confused:

:minifo:  :et:



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OfflineHellogoodbyedeath

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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2] * 2
    #19232059 - 12/05/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are none.


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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232070 - 12/05/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?


I have heard some level headed ideas but honestly to date I can't say it stands up to deep scrutiny.  I understand some concepts for believe in a higher power - one being the complexity and odds of a world coming together that works like it does but there are also a lot of ways to view that and say that is how evolution works.

I've also heard the idea that something doesn't come from nothing so what started the world?

On the other hand in my experiences of religious services I can't honestly I've seen it go much farther than the way people believe in it that causes an effect on them.  I'm more agnostic overall personally, but religion hasn't sold me too much, even more so the mainstream American religions.   

Also when any religion hates on groups of people like gay and lesbians they lose me right there and I lose respect for people who follow that part of religion.  The logic behind that makes no sense-  If God created people in his image as religions say then surely it shouldn't discriminate based on your sexuality.  I never saw in the bible where it said God loves everyone except for gay, bi and lesbian people. :hypnotic:

Also why do people pray to Jesus over God, if God is the creator isn't he who people would be praying to?  :confused:

:minifo:  :et:





Sounds like your conception is religion is pretty much limited to Christianity.


--------------------
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Offlineskatealex2
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The_Ghost]
    #19232121 - 12/05/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Sounds like your conception is religion is pretty much limited to Christianity.





Not at all actually, I guess my last question makes it sound like that but I know about a lot more than Christianity.


Edited by skatealex2 (12/05/13 04:44 PM)


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Hellogoodbyedeath] * 1
    #19232148 - 12/05/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cojo said:
There are none.




:thumbup:


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Cyclohexylamine] * 1
    #19232182 - 12/05/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Organized religion = NO.

Hope/Spirituality = YES.

But doing what feels good is still my favorite answer. Just ponder, no one can give any real answers, just ways to cope with the unknown. :tinfoil:


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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232185 - 12/05/13 04:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Sounds like your conception is religion is pretty much limited to Christianity.





Not at all actually, I guess my last question makes it sound like that but I know about a lot more than Christianity.



Not all religions have a God. They are just belief structures like any other. Is it rational to adhere to a belief structure? Perhaps give this a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality


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OfflineIrfan
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Futuresight] * 2
    #19232195 - 12/05/13 05:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

As far as im concerned, if someone decides to be religious because they feel as though it enriches their life, and or helps them live with less anxiety or fear; that is a rational decision and has a measurable effect on their own happiness.



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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #19232199 - 12/05/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





why do you agnostoatheists always try and choke your beliefs down everyone's
throats, why cant you people just keep that shit to yourself and be more
tolerant of other people's beliefs?


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Irfan]
    #19232200 - 12/05/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

personally I think religion is really interesting and awesome so I have just gotten more into it over time :shrug:


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Offlineskatealex2
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The_Ghost]
    #19232224 - 12/05/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





why do you agnostoatheists always try and choke your beliefs down everyone's
throats, why cant you people just keep that shit to yourself and be more
tolerant of other people's beliefs?




I don't really.  I'm not even an atheist but I'm not into religion ether.  I was asking a legit question tho-  if anyone has a reasonable explanation to believe in religion. I'm not shoving my views down anyone's throats, I don't really care if other people are religious or not.

Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Sounds like your conception is religion is pretty much limited to Christianity.





Not at all actually, I guess my last question makes it sound like that but I know about a lot more than Christianity.



Not all religions have a God. They are just belief structures like any other. Is it rational to adhere to a belief structure? Perhaps give this a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality





I hear that. I guess that's where religion can be weird -  what if religion didn't need a belief structure tho or was kind of like an open field just based on a few key ideas?

There are some interesting things in the original biblical texts.  I don't have examples to show right now but there were some areas that were on point scientifically with some of the oldest texts.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Hellogoodbyedeath]
    #19232244 - 12/05/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cojo said:
There are none.



Actually, there's one: your own personal experience leads you to the undeniable conclusion that [insert deity name here] exists, beyond all doubt.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
    #19232250 - 12/05/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

One day I went to a church and asked the Priest there, or minister, pastor, I don't know, why he believed what he believed.

[Begin paraphrasing: He told me that he had stopped interpreting the bible literally 20 years before. He said that he still preached the Bible like a non-fiction book, because "if the people don't believe that the stories are believable, then they lose faith, which in turn diseases their hope for heaven. And why would you treat your neighbor with utmost kindness if there was no hell?"/paraphrasing]

All this, and other research, personal opinions and such leads me to believe that Religion is not the truth, it is just a way to live, a code. It is hope, that all of the pain, all of the joy, everything that happens to you, is for a reason. If your God(s) wanted you to know the truth, you wouldn't be human.


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Futuresight] * 2
    #19232868 - 12/05/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have no problem with people believing in whatever the fuck they believe in.  When that belief system starts forcing standards on the rest of the population, that is where I have an issue.


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InvisibleNiffla
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232875 - 12/05/13 05:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Rational reason? Because they want to. That's all they need. I really don't care one way or the other what people want to believe or put their faith in as long as they don't try to force it on myself or look down on me/others who might not agree with them.

Who am I / we to judge.


Edited by Niffla (12/05/13 05:20 PM)


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InvisibleNiffla
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19232879 - 12/05/13 05:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
I have no problem with people believing in whatever the fuck they believe in.  When that belief system starts forcing standards on the rest of the population, that is where I have an issue.




:raisemyglass:


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Prisoner#1] * 3
    #19232880 - 12/05/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
why do you agnostoatheists always try and choke your beliefs down everyone's
throats, why cant you people just keep that shit to yourself and be more
tolerant of other people's beliefs?




I never preach agnosticism. 

When people say "bless you" after I sneeze, I say "thank you."

When people say "God bless" after a conversation, I say "thank you."

That doesn't mean I will ever utter those phrases, but I appreciate their apparent care for my well being.

Just like their are some Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. who don't try to force their beliefs on others, there are plenty of agnostics and atheists who don't preach their beliefs as well.


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Offlinestimpson
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19232911 - 12/05/13 05:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

mary magdalene what what!!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232927 - 12/05/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





why do you agnostoatheists always try and choke your beliefs down everyone's
throats, why cant you people just keep that shit to yourself and be more
tolerant of other people's beliefs?




I don't really.  I'm not even an atheist but I'm not into religion ether.  I was asking a legit question tho-  if anyone has a reasonable explanation to believe in religion. I'm not shoving my views down anyone's throats, I don't really care if other people are religious or not.

Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

The_Ghost said:
Sounds like your conception is religion is pretty much limited to Christianity.





Not at all actually, I guess my last question makes it sound like that but I know about a lot more than Christianity.



Not all religions have a God. They are just belief structures like any other. Is it rational to adhere to a belief structure? Perhaps give this a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality





I hear that. I guess that's where religion can be weird -  what if religion didn't need a belief structure tho or was kind of like an open field just based on a few key ideas?

There are some interesting things in the original biblical texts.  I don't have examples to show right now but there were some areas that were on point scientifically with some of the oldest texts.



Your beliefs are structured whether or not you limit yourself to a particular structure consciously.


--------------------
/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function


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Invisiblefiddle
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232938 - 12/05/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Believing in some purpose can be very beneficial. The belief itself is often irrational, but the benefits are very tangible. I think of it as a placebo cure for being unmotivated.


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Offlinesof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19232948 - 12/05/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?


I have heard some level headed ideas but honestly to date I can't say it stands up to deep scrutiny.  I understand some concepts for believe in a higher power - one being the complexity and odds of a world coming together that works like it does but there are also a lot of ways to view that and say that is how evolution works.

I've also heard the idea that something doesn't come from nothing so what started the world?

On the other hand in my experiences of religious services I can't honestly I've seen it go much farther than the way people believe in it that causes an effect on them.  I'm more agnostic overall personally, but religion hasn't sold me too much, even more so the mainstream American religions.   

Also when any religion hates on groups of people like gay and lesbians they lose me right there and I lose respect for people who follow that part of religion.  The logic behind that makes no sense-  If God created people in his image as religions say then surely it shouldn't discriminate based on your sexuality.  I never saw in the bible where it said God loves everyone except for gay, bi and lesbian people. :hypnotic:

Also why do people pray to Jesus over God, if God is the creator isn't he who people would be praying to?  :confused:

:minifo:  :et:






You're just too much into your own ideas to really accept free rational thinking about the worth of religion.


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Offlinedontknow
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #19233019 - 12/05/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
one being the complexity and odds of a world coming together that works like it does

I've also heard the idea that something doesn't come from nothing so what started the world?



These are two of the main reasons why I can't dismiss God. Also being raised in a very Christian environment in all aspects of my life until 18 probably has something to do with it.
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
I never saw in the bible where it said God loves everyone except for gay, bi and lesbian people. :hypnotic:



That's because it doesn't say that. It condemns homosexuality as a sin, it doesn't say to hate homosexuals. It's about the act not the person.

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Also why do people pray to Jesus over God, if God is the creator isn't he who people would be praying to?  :confused:



Jesus and God are one in the same. Praying to one is praying to the other. Also, it goes both ways, often times it's start "Dear God/Lord" end "in your Son's Holy name I pray ,Amen" So people don't always specifically pray to Jesus, not sure where you got that from.

The Trinity can be a confusing thing, I think this makes it easier to understand "If we were to use math, it would not be, 1+1+1=3. It would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God." from http://www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html


Edited by dontknow (12/05/13 05:54 PM)


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Offlineskatealex2
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
    #19233035 - 12/05/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sof4r0ckeRs1984 said:

You're just too much into your own ideas to really accept free rational thinking about the worth of religion.




I never said religions not worth anything.  A big part of society seems to be effected by religion.  I'm sure some of it is positive too.  I'm not 'anti everything to do with religion', doesn't mean I'm very into religion either.    I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lower crime rate amongst some religious people versus otherwise.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19233124 - 12/05/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

People see what they want to see. Some see chance and coincidence - others see providence.

Logic or "rational reasons" are subsequent to belief. Belief underlies everything in the metaphysical universe.

Ignore my disjointed blathering.

:datass:


--------------------


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord] * 1
    #19233158 - 12/05/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Ignore my disjointed blathering.




Always have, always will.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #19233161 - 12/05/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Ignore my disjointed blathering.




Always have, always will.



You stay classy :taco:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Offlinesof4r0ckeRs1984
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19233222 - 12/05/13 06:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

sof4r0ckeRs1984 said:

You're just too much into your own ideas to really accept free rational thinking about the worth of religion.




I never said religions not worth anything.  A big part of society seems to be effected by religion.  I'm sure some of it is positive too.  I'm not 'anti everything to do with religion', doesn't mean I'm very into religion either.    I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lower crime rate amongst some religious people versus otherwise.




You disproved my point and gave some answers to yourself. Obviously these aren't new to you so you should have gained reassurance instead of new knowledge.[


quote]JesusIsLord said:
People see what they want to see. Some see chance and coincidence - others see providence.

Logic or "rational reasons" are subsequent to belief. Belief underlies everything in the metaphysical universe.

Ignore my disjointed blathering.

:datass:



like :thumbup:


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OfflineMisterSandman
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: dontknow]
    #19233266 - 12/05/13 06:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dontknow said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
one being the complexity and odds of a world coming together that works like it does

I've also heard the idea that something doesn't come from nothing so what started the world?



These are two of the main reasons why I can't dismiss God. Also being raised in a very Christian environment in all aspects of my life until 18 probably has something to do with it.

In an ever expanding, infinite universe the odds are actually very good that a complex worlds like ours would come together. There are probably many more out there.

I don't think it's as simple as something coming from nothing.


Quote:

skatealex2 said:
I never saw in the bible where it said God loves everyone except for gay, bi and lesbian people. :hypnotic:



That's because it doesn't say that. It condemns homosexuality as a sin, it doesn't say to hate homosexuals. It's about the act not the person.

Do you really think the all knowing, creator of the universe would really give a shit who you have sex with :uhno: seems like something that came from the mind of a human being.






--------------------


Edited by MisterSandman (12/05/13 06:43 PM)


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Offlinehardcorekid83
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19233281 - 12/05/13 06:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

where are you guys getting that the op is cramming his beliefs or whatever down peoples throats or that he is to into himself to view rational thinking about religion? it seems to me he would like to have a rational discussion with out people getting there panties all bunched up about religion. i love these kinds of discussions because honestly, when i think with my "rational mind" about God, I'm not so sure that i believe. its not my mind that believes, its my heart. i choose to believe that there is a god. something pure, perfect, that is all good and just. i see evil all over this world, everywhere i look i see it. also as a recovering heroin addict, looking back, the only way i can describe being strung out is being possessed by something evil. it made me a fuckin zombie of a human being that would steel from my dead grandmother. it made me do things i would never ever do. so if i can see the evil that the bible warns me to look for than i think it must be rational to think that the god the bible talks about is real also. i don't believe because i think i am going to get into heaven if i do. i don't believe everyone goes to heaven. as far as praying to God through jesus, i don't believe in the trinity. i don't believe god and jesus are one in the same. jesus says repeatedly that i am not my father. god also says that jesus is his only begotten son. you pray to god through jesus because jesus acts as a filter. it was explained to me in more detail but it was a little complicated and i can't remember, i just remember thinking it made a lot of sense.

and then there is dmt…… :smile:


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: hardcorekid83]
    #19233302 - 12/05/13 06:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Religious people live longer and healthier lives.


--------------------
“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington



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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Futuresight]
    #19233380 - 12/05/13 07:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Futuresight said:
Organized religion = NO.

Hope/Spirituality = YES.

But doing what feels good is still my favorite answer. Just ponder, no one can give any real answers, just ways to cope with the unknown. :tinfoil:




First of all, hope has nothing to do with a higher power.

Second, you describing it as the unknown is retarded, burden of proof and all. I suppose we should keep an open mind about werewolves too.


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InvisibleMagicman69
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #19233411 - 12/05/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Religion is based on faith not rational reasoning.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Magicman69]
    #19233419 - 12/05/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
Religion is based on faith not rational reasoning.



what is rational reasoning based on? premises?


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Magicman69] * 1
    #19233421 - 12/05/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Magicman69 said:
Religion is based on faith not rational reasoning.




Which is the problem.


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233427 - 12/05/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Heres my personal rationale for how the universe came to be. Before the big bang time didn't exist. So if time didn't exist then the big bang started before nothing. So, enjoy a head fuck, I don't understand it either.


--------------------
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When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul



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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: King Klick]
    #19233446 - 12/05/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

so, something came from nothing?

seems legit :derp:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: sof4r0ckeRs1984]
    #19233469 - 12/05/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sof4r0ckeRs1984 said:
Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Quote:

sof4r0ckeRs1984 said:

You're just too much into your own ideas to really accept free rational thinking about the worth of religion.




I never said religions not worth anything.  A big part of society seems to be effected by religion.  I'm sure some of it is positive too.  I'm not 'anti everything to do with religion', doesn't mean I'm very into religion either.    I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lower crime rate amongst some religious people versus otherwise.




You disproved my point and gave some answers to yourself. Obviously these aren't new to you so you should have gained reassurance instead of new knowledge.[


quote]JesusIsLord said:
People see what they want to see. Some see chance and coincidence - others see providence.

Logic or "rational reasons" are subsequent to belief. Belief underlies everything in the metaphysical universe.

Ignore my disjointed blathering.

:datass:



like :thumbup:



:raisemyglass:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19233472 - 12/05/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
so, something came from nothing?

seems legit :derp:



Nope, nothing came from something.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul



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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19233475 - 12/05/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
People see what they want to see. Some see chance and coincidence - others see providence.

Logic or "rational reasons" are subsequent to belief. Belief underlies everything in the metaphysical universe.

Ignore my disjointed blathering.

:datass:



that's true say dog.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #19233507 - 12/05/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Rationale is hardly subject to belief.

There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.

When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.


--------------------


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19233513 - 12/05/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the only question that matters about religion now concerns how well they work. does it improve your life to believe that you're part of god's chosen people and that everyone else is going to hell when the world ends oh just about any day now? i don't think so. but if it does then more power to that person. maybe being born again is keeping someone out of a life of crime and slamming dope. who knows? besides, approaching any religious tradition from an outsider, skeptical stance just pisses everyone off.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233518 - 12/05/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.

before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy and before that hermetics. we were bashing things together for a long time, with the belief that something new will happen, and it continues to this day.

all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #19233525 - 12/05/13 07:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.

before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy.

all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.




Of course, but the leap from "god did it" to where we are now is pretty goddamn significant.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233536 - 12/05/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, but i'm just saying... it's not an end all be of science, to say "God don't exist none, foo".

it's just an open ended question... some people find peace or relevance in that question... some people in these days are still living as if they were 18th century minutemen, and they think that's the "way to be". :shrug: just because they're far far away from "rationality" doesn't mean they are completely devoid of it.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #19233561 - 12/05/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.

before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy and before that hermetics. we were bashing things together for a long time, with the belief that something new will happen, and it continues to this day.

all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.




right. but thinking people have always been able to reconcile their spiritual lives with the intellectual world. it's easy - and foolish - to think that all religious people are simple, superstitious and whatnot but that just isn't the case in the grand scheme.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
    #19233571 - 12/05/13 07:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.

so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19233574 - 12/05/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not religious at all, but I believe in reincarnation.

What does that make me?


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: VivaLaMushie]
    #19233581 - 12/05/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Religious


--------------------
:box:

The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly. -Proverbs 15:14

:tripping2: :shroomer:  :trippinballs: :shroomin:

“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of Life’s coming attractions.”
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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233587 - 12/05/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Rationale is hardly subject to belief.

There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.

When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.



How do you know that you know?


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: VivaLaMushie]
    #19233601 - 12/05/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

VivaLaMushie said:
I'm not religious at all, but I believe in reincarnation.

What does that make me?



a Buddhist or Hindu belief is of that of reincarnation... but as any Buddhist will tell you, Buddhism isn't really a religion, but just a way of telling and perceiving of the world... and Hinduism is so old and shit... i think it's ok, that they made a whole bunch of story stuff to make people think more, back in the day... and more to my point, to have beliefs doesn't make one religious. you have to be pious to be truly religious... most people aren't even; so alot of people who say they are religious are fooling themselves if they can't be totally pious and in service to their deities. (the ones with ritual sacrifice and shit are the ones that mainly died out, now that tells you something... fear. people and fear.)

being religious is like wearing a cape tunic and thinking you can be invisible or that you can garner great power from robes and garment.

it's only useful for people who really have an edge in the fight against evil; which in terms of people, is very few and far between.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19233615 - 12/05/13 08:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.

so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.




he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19233620 - 12/05/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Rationale is hardly subject to belief.

There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.

When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.



How do you know that you know?




Because I have a pretty intimate relationship with my brain.


--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233632 - 12/05/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
    #19233636 - 12/05/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Daniel Dennett. This is what he does, researching the roles and structures religion provides He may be an outspoken atheist, but he's not convinced getting rid of religion is a good idea.

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.

so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.




he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.




Unless you had standing with the church, people who proposed heretical explanations for natural phenomena didn't fare very well.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
    #19233745 - 12/05/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.

so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.




he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.



yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #19233766 - 12/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Rationale is hardly subject to belief.

There are laws about the universe which we know to be constant and unwavering.

When the moon decides to do a loop d loop then maybe I'll start reconsidering the fundamentals of reality.



How do you know that you know?




Because I have a pretty intimate relationship with my brain.



How can you know there are laws about the universe which are constant and unwavering because you believe you have an intimate relationship with your brain?


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


Edited by JesusIsLord (12/05/13 08:31 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19233767 - 12/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.




god's been redefined perpetually throughout the history of thought. redefining him again to fit the world would be business as usual.

Quote:

koods said:
Unless you had standing with the church, people who proposed heretical explanations for natural phenomena didn't fare very well.




true, it was a double edged sword. but it was a different time. and that doesn't change the fact that, for as much as it did to hinder scientific progress, the church also fostered it. not a fan of daniel dennett myself.

Quote:

akira_akuma said:

yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.




i gotcha. sorry man, brain drain. long semester.


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233777 - 12/05/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.



that's missing the point though. though you can argue that Radiation isn't a deity... you could also argue that people had a misconception about various things, and related them to God. now that we know, it's radiation... the devotional properties of our knowing of it's "god-likeness" rebounds into more scientific forethought on the subject. one mans God is another man's science and mystery. could be looked at as if every is God, so yeah, maybe religious people seem a bit "out of place", but does that make their thinking so wrong, to believe that God is those very things we couldn't define before our knowledge came to fruition?

i'm not saying people are more "right" for being religious... i'm just saying that they're choosing to look for meaning beyond what's presentable, because that's what's always helped us (as humans) pull through.

it might not have the same significance as it once did, but who are we to judge? before, the kind of divination one would "receive" from such knowledge would be that of the kind that someone receives when they pull a fuckin' Einstein... they just made some conclusions that helped everyone out, for the most part, and they created more questions then answers too, of course, but they also solved a problem or created solutions to things that other's couldn't. of course people back in the day would equate that to God. the unexplainable has always been attributed to God. God is just a placeholder for the unknowable; and people have faith that that which we don't know won't horribly deter the planets future endeavors with a giant boot. sure it's fear... but it's a healthy fear of the unknown that keeps us striving for more... whether you're a scientist or a religious person. we're all striving the same thing, only scientific people take it upon themselves to "do the problem solving" while religious people just "hope and pray" that they can; without shaking them up too much; because it IS an older way of thinking.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19233938 - 12/05/13 09:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
right. apparently this dude,( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre ) thought of the big bang, and he's a religious scientist.

so, all the scientists of the world can thank him for bringing this theory forward, first, before anyone else did; and as it turns out... people thought he was nuts, and as it turns out... he was fuckin' correct.




he's hardly the only clergy member to bring science to the world. muslim clerics invented algebra. pretty much everyone doing science during the middle ages through the renaissance was involved with the church.



yeah, exactly. science came after religion, and the aforementioned religious "nuts" came up with what we know today as the beginning of scientific forethought.




Evolution.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19233993 - 12/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also, it's pretty frustrating when the "spiritual" crowd decides to redefine god so much that radiation could be considered a deity.



that's missing the point though. though you can argue that Radiation isn't a deity... you could also argue that people had a misconception about various things, and related them to God. now that we know, it's radiation... the devotional properties of our knowing of it's "god-likeness" rebounds into more scientific forethought on the subject. one mans God is another man's science and mystery. could be looked at as if every is God, so yeah, maybe religious people seem a bit "out of place", but does that make their thinking so wrong, to believe that God is those very things we couldn't define before our knowledge came to fruition?

i'm not saying people are more "right" for being religious... i'm just saying that they're choosing to look for meaning beyond what's presentable, because that's what's always helped us (as humans) pull through.

it might not have the same significance as it once did, but who are we to judge? before, the kind of divination one would "receive" from such knowledge would be that of the kind that someone receives when they pull a fuckin' Einstein... they just made some conclusions that helped everyone out, for the most part, and they created more questions then answers too, of course, but they also solved a problem or created solutions to things that other's couldn't. of course people back in the day would equate that to God. the unexplainable has always been attributed to God. God is just a placeholder for the unknowable; and people have faith that that which we don't know won't horribly deter the planets future endeavors with a giant boot. sure it's fear... but it's a healthy fear of the unknown that keeps us striving for more... whether you're a scientist or a religious person. we're all striving the same thing, only scientific people take it upon themselves to "do the problem solving" while religious people just "hope and pray" that they can; without shaking them up too much; because it IS an older way of thinking.




God is a placeholder, but not for the unknowable, but the yet to be known.

God is an ever decreasing cause of mysterious phenomena. The more we learn, the less we attribute to mythology. Is that not more reason to abandon that line of reasoning altogether?

If I come to you and say x y and z exist because of my omnipotence, and you figure out that x and y are because of things I couldn't possibly control, how devoted are you to the belief that I made z happen?

It's not only the mystery though that adds to the delusion, it's the euphoric reinforcement that you're important, and that all the problems in your life are inconsequential, and that after your meager existence youll live forever in an eternal paradise. It's an anti depressant.

And as far the "who cares if it makes people feel better" claim, sure, it improves some lives. I could write an encyclopedia on the negatives of religion. People shouldnt need a gun to their head to do good. Making the world a better place for humanity should be more than enough. Have faith in people, in society. Not a make believe superman who really isn't all that super to begin with.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19233999 - 12/05/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

evolution comes from time and other considerations, such as place, space, survival.

not everyone has those things in spades, you know... in fact, barely no one in this world does... even the people who think they do, don't.

so hence you get people reeling back from "evolution" as it doesn't fucking help them at all.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19234008 - 12/05/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A common argument is that religion although possibly untrue, is just something to give hope to people who have none. It gives people a semi-good moral code of conduct.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234012 - 12/05/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

And as far the "who cares if it makes people feel better" claim, sure, it improves some lives. I could write an encyclopedia on the negatives of religion. People shouldnt need a gun to their head to do good. Making the world a better place for humanity should be more than enough. Have faith in people, in society. Not a make believe superman who really isn't all that super to begin with.



yeah, well as it was said earlier... it's a placeholder. alot of people are stupid-heads and don't care to learn past the meager unknown. so, can i blame them? :shrug: this world gives nothing to no one. so how can i judge? there's alot of religious people who put more of their faith in people then they do God. alot alot. just because you don't see them preaching about empirical evidence or how "God is dead", doesn't mean their thinking is skewed into thinking it's all about "one dude up in the sky". people's thoughts are more complex then that.

if you really had faith in people, you should recognize that.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: EnemaOfState] * 2
    #19234021 - 12/05/13 09:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EnemaOfState said:
A common argument is that religion although possibly untrue, is just something to give hope to people who have none. It gives people a semi-good moral code of conduct.




False hope.

Would you rather some poor bastard waste away his life praying and giving money for the church to die poor hoping for paradise? Only to end up with a shitty 65 year long existence on his resume? Or should he realize that this life he's lucked into is finite and he should make the absolute best of it?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234026 - 12/05/13 09:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

people can have false hope without devoutly toiling or meandering or giving into the church.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #19234032 - 12/05/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

And as far the "who cares if it makes people feel better" claim, sure, it improves some lives. I could write an encyclopedia on the negatives of religion. People shouldnt need a gun to their head to do good. Making the world a better place for humanity should be more than enough. Have faith in people, in society. Not a make believe superman who really isn't all that super to begin with.



yeah, well as it was said earlier... it's a placeholder. alot of people are stupid-heads and don't care to learn past the meager unknown. so, can i blame them? :shrug: this world gives nothing to no one. so how can i judge? there's alot of religious people who put more of their faith in people then they do God. alot alot. just because you don't see them preaching about empirical evidence or how "God is dead", doesn't mean their thinking is skewed into thinking it's all about "one dude up in the sky". people's thoughts are more complex then that.

if you really had faith in people, you should recognize that.




You're right. Just look at Pope Francis. But it shouldnt have taken all we've suffered under the guise of God's will to arrive at this conclusion.

Wouldnt it be pretty great if we didn't have radical Islam to deal with? Or Zionist Israel? Superstition never ends soon enough, and is dangerous no matter the positive side effects.

Can't we just be happy without God? Why do we need such a shitty crutch?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234041 - 12/05/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

because people can let go of self-identification with the past.

that's all. not religions fault. it's people's fault for being how they are.

they made all this shit, and when it comes time to undo it... NAHHHH... religion, politics, black-white thinking... it all serves the greater agenda of pushing for a bigger bigger and well bigger world. with more stuff in it. yeah! ego! mind! YAY!1

the more the merrier seems to be our collective slogan. but the most devout of religion and the most devout in science, warns people of this fascination with "more stuff" and people choose not to listen in favor of the "next big thing" we can all learn to appreciate maybe have cater to our whims. space replica vitamin food capsules? fine, but only if we actually get cars that go into space. then i'm cool with that.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #19234053 - 12/05/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

a universal understanding of reality would be pretty good imo.

The biggest problem with humanity today is divisiveness. We have so much god damn potential and we waste it trying to destroy each other.

Unity and a common goal is what's going to unite this world, and theres no bigger obstacle to unity in this world than religion.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19234055 - 12/05/13 09:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

there's many reasons to consider God's existence other than emotional or psychological ones. He might just actually exist. You can find God via a search for yourself or a search for truth. A search that will indeed go beyond the limitations of one's individual ego.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234067 - 12/05/13 09:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i'd say politics. but lets just agree to disagree.

personally, i think it's because people don't know the meaning of love. :shrug: or how to make love... or how to please one another without thinking that the other is their property (back to politics)

i think those things harm more then religion in the long run... just religion gets all the clout for being the "big bad guy" because by happenstance, when religion came to be, so did black-white thinking of the doom cult aesthetic.

"we're all gonna die anyways so..."


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19234089 - 12/05/13 09:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
i'd say politics. but lets just agree to disagree.

personally, i think it's because people don't know the meaning of love. :shrug: or how to make love... or how to please one another without thinking that the other is their property (back to politics)

i think those things harm more then religion in the long run... just religion gets all the clout for being the "big bad guy" because by happenstance, when religion came to be, so did black-white thinking of the doom cult aesthetic.

"we're all gonna die anyways so..."




I'd say it's probably a tie between politics and religion. The two party dichotomy has pretty much devolved into cult thinking at this point anyways.

I wonder: will a one world government exist before organized religion dies? I imagine the two would influence each other a great deal.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234111 - 12/05/13 09:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A one world government would probably use some form of religion to exist


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19234115 - 12/05/13 09:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

oh the two influence each other alright. the only reason we have the notion of a one world government is because of religions hold on people's beliefs and how people condemn other parts of the world for merely existing as a separate part of the world.

still, i can't blame people for living how people have existed on this world for thousands of years; especially if they aren't particularly involved in these fields. it's the people who think they're so ding dang good at "their job" that they're gonna revolutionize something in their field. personally, i think that sorta of thinking is more damaging then when people think there is some "sky dude" presiding over the Earth.

those people working for religions hold and politics hold on day to day existence of humans, are the people who are deluded. not the people who are surrounded by these things because they merely exist in it all.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #19234187 - 12/05/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the reason you are supposed to pray to god through Jesus is because through Jesus the blood price was paid to make us clean and righteous before god. its kind of like how you have to have a modem to get to the internet. god would be the internet and Jesus the modem. 
  And as for sexuality goes. our sexuality was given to us by god as a means to reproduce. Gods plan was for man to live on paradise earth without death, to subdue it and reproduce and to praise god.
  But Satan challenged gods authority to rule over mankind. satan wanted to be worshiped like god so he tricked eve and adam, thus bringing death into the world. and god allowed this challenge to play out. for man to choose what is best for himself. but after Armageddon satans challenge will no longer have to be tested again. people will know the results of living in a world controlled by the unrightious. those that want to live forever on paradise earth and warship the one true god will.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: EnemaOfState]
    #19234590 - 12/05/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EnemaOfState said:
A common argument is that religion although possibly untrue, is just something to give hope to people who have none. It gives people a semi-good moral code of conduct.




i would reject both of those claims. religion cannot be reduced to being just something people turn to when they're afraid. while this may be true in some cases, i would say that religion's end, on the part of the devotee at least, is to express your religious beliefs through the observation of a tradition. you must remember that not everyone is looking to get the best seat in heaven. and while religion certainly enforces moral codes it is by no means their source. i would argue that it's the other way around and that religion is predicated on morals we have already found to be good. it's a way of expressing what's going on inside us. we take these innate structures of our being and overlay reality with them in order to account for what's there. at least that's how i see it.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: millzy]
    #19234591 - 12/05/13 11:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

theosophy existed before religion. you needed the beliefs in good, before you could have the belief in Gods and heaven and hell, and the after life and ones place in it.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Futuresight]
    #19234608 - 12/06/13 12:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Futuresight said:
Organized religion = NO.

Hope/Spirituality = YES.

But doing what feels good is still my favorite answer. Just ponder, no one can give any real answers, just ways to cope with the unknown. :tinfoil:




And boy is that unknown a bitch.
I think organized religion is just a bunch of people getting together to try and figure this shit out. Of course no one knows if anybody is right. What matters is the ritual. You should read some Terrence Mckenna he has some great theories as to why we even developed ritual practices. but religion has obviously played a heavy role in our history. So I wouldn't scoff at it to much.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Amishmedic8]
    #19234642 - 12/06/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Religion is important. But I just saw something the other day about the Pope explaining how he use to be a body guard and how he tweeted. it made me :facepalm: It makes it seem like such a joke IMO. My world was much simpler when I believed in religion as the end all be all.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #19235516 - 12/06/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
theosophy existed before religion. you needed the beliefs in good, before you could have the belief in Gods and heaven and hell, and the after life and ones place in it.




I'd love to go back in time and watch the face of the first hominid to think "maybe bashing Steve's skull in for his share of the kill isn't so fair to Steve."


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: vbug66]
    #19235612 - 12/06/13 09:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

vbug66 said:
the reason you are supposed to pray to god through Jesus is because through Jesus the blood price was paid to make us clean and righteous before god. its kind of like how you have to have a modem to get to the internet. god would be the internet and Jesus the modem. 
  And as for sexuality goes. our sexuality was given to us by god as a means to reproduce. Gods plan was for man to live on paradise earth without death, to subdue it and reproduce and to praise god.
  But Satan challenged gods authority to rule over mankind. satan wanted to be worshiped like god so he tricked eve and adam, thus bringing death into the world. and god allowed this challenge to play out. for man to choose what is best for himself. but after Armageddon satans challenge will no longer have to be tested again. people will know the results of living in a world controlled by the unrightious. those that want to live forever on paradise earth and warship the one true god will.




"our sexuality was given to us by god as a means to reproduce."

Really, I thought sex was just for pleasure, thanks for informing us that sex is for reproduction.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19235629 - 12/06/13 09:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Religion sucks. It's just a movement that makes people feel like they belong to something. Abusing the aspect that most people don't want to be alone.


I am a militant atheist. It is my duty to make everybody that believes in a religion feel like they are absolute idiots. It is my duty to fill their throats with arguments that proves how stupid religion is and how they are equally stupid to believe in it. It is also my duty to insult their beliefs when they discriminate against a group of people.

I will not stand by and do nothing while religion is poisoning the planet I live on. I have no tolerance for beliefs based on fairy tales and prophets.

I have no respect for religious belief of any kind.

I also believe that WW3 should be declared in order to exterminate religions.



Other than that, I'm a pretty tolerant guy


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19237952 - 12/06/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
a universal understanding of reality would be pretty good imo.

The biggest problem with humanity today is divisiveness. We have so much god damn potential and we waste it trying to destroy each other.

Unity and a common goal is what's going to unite this world, and theres no bigger obstacle to unity in this world than religion.




What is wrong with having differences such as a unique point of view? Why should everyone have a universal understanding of reality? Who would define this universal reality?

Why do you dislike the idea of freedom of religion? Why shouldn't all sentient beings have that freedom?


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19238015 - 12/06/13 07:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hmm ill try
jesus loves you no matter what and god is all giving ''concept'' = earth and sun and moon etc provide you with life no matter what unless u kill urself


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: seadragon]
    #19238035 - 12/06/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

seadragon said:
hmm ill try
jesus loves you no matter what and god is all giving ''concept'' = earth and sun and moon etc provide you with life no matter what unless u kill urself



not sure if sarcastic.

I wasn't being rhetorical :shrug:


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord] * 1
    #19238039 - 12/06/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
a universal understanding of reality would be pretty good imo.

The biggest problem with humanity today is divisiveness. We have so much god damn potential and we waste it trying to destroy each other.

Unity and a common goal is what's going to unite this world, and theres no bigger obstacle to unity in this world than religion.




What is wrong with having differences such as a unique point of view? Why should everyone have a universal understanding of reality? Who would define this universal reality?

Why do you dislike the idea of freedom of religion? Why shouldn't all sentient beings have that freedom?




What about freedom from religion?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19238060 - 12/06/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
theosophy existed before religion. you needed the beliefs in good, before you could have the belief in Gods and heaven and hell, and the after life and ones place in it.




I'd love to go back in time and watch the face of the first hominid to think "maybe bashing Steve's skull in for his share of the kill isn't so fair to Steve."



LOLOLOLOL me too

be like



ya da man dog, now you can share that Woolly Mammoth!


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238062 - 12/06/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
a universal understanding of reality would be pretty good imo.

The biggest problem with humanity today is divisiveness. We have so much god damn potential and we waste it trying to destroy each other.

Unity and a common goal is what's going to unite this world, and theres no bigger obstacle to unity in this world than religion.




What is wrong with having differences such as a unique point of view? Why should everyone have a universal understanding of reality? Who would define this universal reality?

Why do you dislike the idea of freedom of religion? Why shouldn't all sentient beings have that freedom?




What about freedom from religion?



What about it? You are free to be religious or not. :shrug:


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19238070 - 12/06/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's freedom of religion. I'm talking about freedom to not be constrained by religious beliefs of others.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238074 - 12/06/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

really, it was a play on words.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19238076 - 12/06/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

seadragon said:
hmm ill try
jesus loves you no matter what and god is all giving ''concept'' = earth and sun and moon etc provide you with life no matter what unless u kill urself



not sure if sarcastic.

I wasn't being rhetorical :shrug:




no i wasnt being sarcastic
i want a new religion
im sick of hearing about jews and looking at a dead man on a cross


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238087 - 12/06/13 07:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
That's freedom of religion. I'm talking about freedom to not be constrained by religious beliefs of others.



How do the beliefs of others constrain you?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19238150 - 12/06/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

everytime a bomb goes off in the Middle East or India, are freedoms are squelched.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19238155 - 12/06/13 07:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
everytime a bomb goes off in the Middle East or India, are freedoms are squelched.




:loldongs:

Silly you. Their freedoms are squelched, not ours.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Patlal]
    #19238165 - 12/06/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
everytime a bomb goes off in the Middle East or India, are freedoms are squelched.




:loldongs:

Silly you. Their freedoms are squelched, not ours.




Really? I want to be free from going barefoot at the airport.

The reason you and I need our passports to meet secretly is due to religion.


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Edited by koods (12/06/13 07:53 PM)


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238196 - 12/06/13 07:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

fuck, now i'm quoted as saying "are freedoms", shit fuck Goddamn!1  :elmo:


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238209 - 12/06/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
everytime a bomb goes off in the Middle East or India, are freedoms are squelched.




:loldongs:

Silly you. Their freedoms are squelched, not ours.




Really? I want to be free from going barefoot at the airport.

The reason you and I need our passports to meet secretly is due to religion.



You are free to hire a private pilot and do as you please. Or buy your own plane.


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19238224 - 12/06/13 08:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
fuck, now i'm quoted as saying "are freedoms", shit fuck Goddamn!1  :elmo:



Twice.

Quote:

JesusIsLord said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
everytime a bomb goes off in the Middle East or India, are freedoms are squelched.




:loldongs:

Silly you. Their freedoms are squelched, not ours.




Really? I want to be free from going barefoot at the airport.

The reason you and I need our passports to meet secretly is due to religion.



You are free to hire a private pilot and do as you please. Or buy your own plane.




That's just goofy. And the restrictions imposed on general aviation are even worse.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19238230 - 12/06/13 08:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

LOL freedom to buy your plane... yeah... :lolsy: so freedom costs quite a pretty penny eh?


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19238268 - 12/06/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
LOL freedom to buy your plane... yeah... :lolsy: so freedom costs quite a pretty penny eh?




Freedom also includes the right to steal an airplane. But the rule book says its a penalty. Make sure the ref isn't looking


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Patlal]
    #19238276 - 12/06/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

so freedom isn't really freedom then. ok, well, good to know.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19238297 - 12/06/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
so freedom isn't really freedom then. ok, well, good to know.




Freedom isn't free. It costs $1.05


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Hellogoodbyedeath]
    #19239618 - 12/07/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There are no rational reasons to believe such nonsense.

It all boils down to childhood/cultural indoctrination and fear of persecution and it holds us back as a species.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Quawonk]
    #19239647 - 12/07/13 06:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I notice god/spirit in all living creatures

and within myself and nature

nature is sacred

love and bliss, and I dont subscribe to any particular religion
but I notice many religions are pretty similar in many ways

religion rarely teaches to hate, only mans thoughts do

not everything can be taught rationally, you have to experience gods love for yourself to believe

muslims believe in the unseen creator, Allah
who they worship by treating others as themselves
allah is in all

karma you could say
if you treat others/any living creature badly it will bite you in the end, subconsciously
if you always do your best to make others happy it is almost impossible to be unhappy

mostly the same for buddhism,christianity etc.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2] * 1
    #19239687 - 12/07/13 06:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





The sum of my experiences and the things I have learned in my 41 years on this earth has led me to believe that everything is interconnected, that all is one, that this one is God and that this God is YOU.

That I believe this isnt just in one thing, its in all things combined. Its in the beauty of a dragonfly. Its in science believing there was a big bang, which formed hydrogen, which formed stars, which burned this hydrogen to ashes, which clumped down to form planets and this ashes consolidated to self replicating molecules which inevitably evolved to beings gazing upon and questioning the universe. Its in the knowing smile of an old couples faces after a lifetime of being together, its in the fact that if you think of a word that you havent heard for years intently, it starts popping up all around you in the subsequent weeks. Its in the deep peace that comes over many people right before their death. Its in the way some trees twist every single leaf of their bodioes towards the sun for getting the most exposure it its rays, its in how the diameter of the moon is about 300 times less than that of the sun but its also about 300 times further away, so that during an eclipse the moon fits exactly over the sun without either being significantly smaller or larger, its in the cruel beauty of destruction after the magnificence of creation, its in all the cosmological constants being just right for an universe with stars, planets and humans, a one in a googol chance. It is in big things and little things, in matter, feelings and concepts.

Its in so many things, but not in any particular one more so, but rather in all of them.


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante]
    #19239730 - 12/07/13 07:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

good description^


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19239817 - 12/07/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
not true. beliefs overshadow everything we've built in society thus far.

before science, we had religion, and before that we had theosophy.

all from the mind. none from the reality, we attempt to interpret.




Of course, but the leap from "god did it" to where we are now is pretty goddamn significant.




THAT is the problem.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante]
    #19240080 - 12/07/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





The sum of my experiences and the things I have learned in my 41 years on this earth has led me to believe that everything is interconnected, that all is one, that this one is God and that this God is YOU.

That I believe this isnt just in one thing, its in all things combined. Its in the beauty of a dragonfly. Its in science believing there was a big bang, which formed hydrogen, which formed stars, which burned this hydrogen to ashes, which clumped down to form planets and this ashes consolidated to self replicating molecules which inevitably evolved to beings gazing upon and questioning the universe. Its in the knowing smile of an old couples faces after a lifetime of being together, its in the fact that if you think of a word that you havent heard for years intently, it starts popping up all around you in the subsequent weeks. Its in the deep peace that comes over many people right before their death. Its in the way some trees twist every single leaf of their bodioes towards the sun for getting the most exposure it its rays, its in how the diameter of the moon is about 300 times less than that of the sun but its also about 300 times further away, so that during an eclipse the moon fits exactly over the sun without either being significantly smaller or larger, its in the cruel beauty of destruction after the magnificence of creation, its in all the cosmological constants being just right for an universe with stars, planets and humans, a one in a googol chance. It is in big things and little things, in matter, feelings and concepts.

Its in so many things, but not in any particular one more so, but rather in all of them.




Not to be a dick but there are simple scientific explanations for all that.

You're getting all American Beauty on me when really it's just a goddamn bag floating in the breeze.


--------------------


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #19240155 - 12/07/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Not to be a dick but there are simple scientific explanations for all that.






Uhuh there are.

Love is just neurotransmitters playing up
You are nothing but a chemical.
Life is a guise of entropy.

See? Now its all explained. Dont you love the simplicity of these explanations? Catches the whole essence of what it is, the rest is just sentimentality.

Explanations are just the rational part of the mind trying to get a grasp on things in an attempt to use it to its advantage, to make a tool out of a perceived trend.

Rationality is a stranger to emotion and is the enemy of wonder, and tries to dispel a sense of wonder whenever it threatens to manifest itself.  Thing is it doesnt make the universe any less miraculous, it just stuffs a sock in your sense of awe.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante]
    #19240223 - 12/07/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Not to be a dick but there are simple scientific explanations for all that.






Uhuh there are.

Love is just neurotransmitters playing up
You are nothing but a chemical.
Life is a guise of entropy.

See? Now its all explained. Dont you love the simplicity of these explanations? Catches the whole essence of what it is, the rest is just sentimentality.

Explanations are just the rational part of the mind trying to get a grasp on things in an attempt to use it to its advantage, to make a tool out of a perceived trend.

Rationality is a stranger to emotion and is the enemy of wonder, and tries to dispel a sense of wonder whenever it threatens to manifest itself.  Thing is it doesnt make the universe any less miraculous, it just stuffs a sock in your sense of awe.




I guess the simplicity gives me a sense of awe :shrug:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240232 - 12/07/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

to each his own.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #19240236 - 12/07/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Not to be a dick but there are simple scientific explanations for all that.






Uhuh there are.

Love is just neurotransmitters playing up
You are nothing but a chemical.
Life is a guise of entropy.

See? Now its all explained. Dont you love the simplicity of these explanations? Catches the whole essence of what it is, the rest is just sentimentality.

Explanations are just the rational part of the mind trying to get a grasp on things in an attempt to use it to its advantage, to make a tool out of a perceived trend.

Rationality is a stranger to emotion and is the enemy of wonder, and tries to dispel a sense of wonder whenever it threatens to manifest itself.  Thing is it doesnt make the universe any less miraculous, it just stuffs a sock in your sense of awe.



So, what you're saying is that you don't like what science says about your life and life and the universe in general... So you reject it. That is the opposite of rational.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19240243 - 12/07/13 10:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no, he's just saying that the sagest advice and contemplation can be reserved for one's own believes in what's important in this life; just like one's most rational advice and practicality can be reserved for their's.


you know... without bumping heads and arguing all the time about how we feel the other should feel about feelings and thoughts.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19240250 - 12/07/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, what you're saying is that you don't like what science says about your life and life and the universe in general... So you reject it.




If you know me from other posts science and me are peas in a pod, I just not crown reductionist explanations as king of my universe.

Quote:

That is the opposite of rational.




Its a really bad thing to want to be rational in all things, the only thing that accomplishes is that sociopaths will have less trouble understanding you.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante]
    #19240260 - 12/07/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest man.

if logic and reason are the God's that you follow, then you'll drown in your soul's emptiness.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Asante]
    #19240264 - 12/07/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

So, what you're saying is that you don't like what science says about your life and life and the universe in general... So you reject it.




If you know me from other posts science and me are peas in a pod, I just not crown reductionist explanations as king of my universe.

Quote:

That is the opposite of rational.




Its a really bad thing to want to be rational in all things, the only thing that accomplishes is that sociopaths will have less trouble understanding you.




OP wanted rational reasons.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleDemonic_Chronic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240266 - 12/07/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

You're getting all American Beauty on me when really it's just a goddamn bag floating in the breeze.




HAHAHA you just made my fucking day.

DC


--------------------
The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable
Is the violence that we do to ourselves
When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: koods]
    #19240411 - 12/07/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
OP wanted rational reasons.




I answered, but no one listened:

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Cojo said:
There are none.



Actually, there's one: your own personal experience leads you to the undeniable conclusion that [insert deity name here] exists, beyond all doubt.




--------------------


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19240477 - 12/07/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

koods said:
OP wanted rational reasons.




I answered, but no one listened:

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Cojo said:
There are none.



Actually, there's one: your own personal experience leads you to the undeniable conclusion that [insert deity name here] exists, beyond all doubt.







:archiebunker:

That's called faith, not rationale.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240489 - 12/07/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

faith can be rationale, it's just generally accepted as not a very good rationale.

:nerd:


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240506 - 12/07/13 11:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I thought that the 'beyond all doubt' part would preempt any attempt to explain it off as faith.

One can draw rational conclusions from subjective information, without the need to rely on faith--other than, perhaps, faith that the mind is indeed a rational tool.

If you woke up one day and something identified itself as 'God' to you, and then proceeded to verify this to you--perhaps by performing miracles on the spot, or whatever your mind would need to soothe it's doubt--would it not then be rational to believe in this 'God'? I'm not commenting on the liklihood of this happening, but RP requested a rational reason to believe in a deity.


--------------------


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OfflineNotTheDevil
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19240540 - 12/07/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I thought that the 'beyond all doubt' part would preempt any attempt to explain it off as faith.

One can draw rational conclusions from subjective information, without the need to rely on faith--other than, perhaps, faith that the mind is indeed a rational tool.

If you woke up one day and something identified itself as 'God' to you, and then proceeded to verify this to you--perhaps by performing miracles on the spot, or whatever your mind would need to soothe it's doubt--would it not then be rational to believe in this 'God'? I'm not commenting on the liklihood of this happening, but RP requested a rational reason to believe in a deity.



Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.

Quote:

Rational reasons to be religious....?



N/A


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: NotTheDevil]
    #19240548 - 12/07/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.





but just say that the 'being' you meet is actually your own self in its cosmic aspect, and you can very much tell how already connected it is to your own consciousness. Then you would really have no doubt because every single question the mind could have about the nature of God becomes more or less answered.

The other two alternatives you list could very well lead to doubts...


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
    #19240590 - 12/07/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i love how people hear about codes found in shit, and "we could all be in a simulation" and whatnot and "it could just be a technologically advanced trick!" but it's really really so hard to believe that there is an "end-all be-all" :lol:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19240601 - 12/07/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

right it's like if reality isn't somehow abstracted then it can't make any 'sense'


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: NotTheDevil]
    #19240603 - 12/07/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
If you woke up one day and something identified itself as 'God' to you, and then proceeded to verify this to you--perhaps by performing miracles on the spot, or whatever your mind would need to soothe it's doubt--would it not then be rational to believe in this 'God'? I'm not commenting on the liklihood of this happening, but RP requested a rational reason to believe in a deity.



Not really, it could quite easily be another form of powerful supernatural being, or even just a very technologically advanced being trolling you.




Once again, ANY DOUBT YOU HAVE is able to be convincingly laid to rest--including the doubt that it is merely a technologically advanced being.

What differentiates a deity from a powerful supernatural entity or technologically advanced being? If a difference exists, than a hypothetical point exists where this being claiming to be 'God' would not longer qualify as a supernatural or technological phenomenon. If nothing differentiates a deity from a powerful supernatural entity or technologically advanced being, than would it not be proper to also consider them to be deities?

Once all possible doubt has been eliminated, you have two possible conclusions to draw: (1) I am insane and my mind is not a rational tool, or (2) I a sane and my mind is a rational tool, and therefore I must conclude that 'God' exists.

Your proposition of an 'Evil Demon' situation doesn't only remove the rationality for believing in God, or being religious--it removes the rationality for believing in anything revealed to us through our senses.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
    #19240611 - 12/07/13 12:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
right it's like if reality isn't somehow abstracted then it can't make any 'sense'



we need a end all be all Ipod.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19240656 - 12/07/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You can't just say "I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts" and declare that rationale.

How many people say that about Jesus Christ? Or UFOs? Or the New York Mets?

Your mind's shitty interpretation of the things around you don't make them true, especially in the total absence of empirical evidence.

If that were the case, I could declare birds to be aliens and the rest of the world would just have to deal with it because of my delusional perception.

No.

Millenia of scientific consensus > that time you did acid and discovered the truth.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240668 - 12/07/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

whats odd about your post to me is that it actually is the situation that if you declare birds to be aliens everybody else has to deal with it. that says a lot about how reality is collectively manifested.

just like we have to deal with your characterization of certain mental interpretations as 'shitty'


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240677 - 12/07/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the very definition of God seems to perplex you.

IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT

THE UNKNOWN

people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
    #19240690 - 12/07/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
whats odd about your post to me is that it actually is the situation that if you declare birds to be aliens everybody else has to deal with it. that says a lot about how reality is collectively manifested.

just like we have to deal with your characterization of certain mental interpretations as 'shitty'




My point is he's claiming his belief is based in reason, it is not.

If you want to make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. You don't get to say "well in my personal experience it's a fact" and scurry away from the argument.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240699 - 12/07/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

nah there's no burden of proof at all, you can just share what you believe.

after all, the truth doesn't need us to prove it to be true, it already is.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19240701 - 12/07/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the very definition of God seems to perplex you.

IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT

THE UNKNOWN

people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?




So the definition of God is now "the unknown?"

God: an ever receding vestige of scientific ignorance.

Really makin a case here....


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240708 - 12/07/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



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Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: g00ru]
    #19240710 - 12/07/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
nah there's no burden of proof at all, you can just share what you believe.

after all, the truth doesn't need us to prove it to be true, it already is.





Sure, you can believe whatever the fuck you want, but it's not rational. And that's what this thread is about.

I don't understand what the second part has to do with beliefs, if anything you just made two conflicting arguments...


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240735 - 12/07/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

the fact that there is a truth to reality will make it so that sooner or later your language will have to be in accordance with that.


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240738 - 12/07/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts"

This isn't what I'm saying though. Obviously I can't go into detail on the exact rational process, because I not claiming to have had the experience myself. Just because I don't have proof for Gods existence doesn't mean I am unable to make that claim that "if I had proof of Gods existence, it would be rational to believe in God".

Imagine, for yourself, what it would require to verify the existence of 'God' for you. Now, imagine that you had this verification. How is it not rational to then go on to believe in the existence of God?



To run with your example, if a bird were to reveal itself as an alien to you--were to take you up in a spaceship capable of intergalactic travel--brought you to an alien planet--introduced you to other alien-birds--and then brought you back home--in other words, removed all possible doubt to the contrary--would it not be rational to then believe that birds are aliens? It's either that or coming to the conclusion that you are insane and cannot trust anything revealed by your senses--either way, it is still a different situation than merely deciding out of the blue that 'birds are aliens'.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240741 - 12/07/13 12:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the very definition of God seems to perplex you.

IT IS THAT WHICH IS NOT

THE UNKNOWN

people can understand this... yet... someone with smarts... can't?




So the definition of God is now "the unknown?"

God: an ever receding vestige of scientific ignorance.

Really makin a case here....


i'm not "making a case", i'm explaining to you that you are just as bad as all the preachers telling people they're going to hell.

you can't FATHOM that maybe God isn't all that fucking important, and anyone with a fucking brain (even clergymen) can see that themselves... which makes me question your judgement.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19240774 - 12/07/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"I believe it bc it's true and theres no doubts"

This isn't what I'm saying though. Obviously I can't go into detail on the exact rational process, because I not claiming to have had the experience myself. Just because I don't have proof for Gods existence doesn't mean I am unable to make that claim that "if I had proof of Gods existence, it would be rational to believe in God".

Imagine, for yourself, what it would require to verify the existence of 'God' for you. Now, imagine that you had this verification. How is it not rational to then go on to believe in the existence of God?



To run with your example, if a bird were to reveal itself as an alien to you--were to take you up in a spaceship capable of intergalactic travel--brought you to an alien planet--introduced you to other alien-birds--and then brought you back home--in other words, removed all possible doubt to the contrary--would it not be rational to then believe that birds are aliens? It's either that or coming to the conclusion that you are insane and cannot trust anything revealed by your senses--either way, it is still a different situation than merely deciding out of the blue that 'birds are aliens'.




Verification in almost all cases is peer reviewed, so a single experience wouldnt convince anyone other than myself thanks to the dozens of psychological biases in play.

As far as the bird, yeah sure, it'd be mind blowing, but I'd still probably write it off as a crazy dream/hallucination if there were no tangible evidence. Is that what God did to you and that's why you believe?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240796 - 12/07/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

God's really just changed over the years... into Science.

can you people stop pontificating now?


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240816 - 12/07/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Verification in almost all cases is peer reviewed, so a single experience wouldnt convince anyone other than myself thanks to the dozens of psychological biases in play.



Who said anything about trying to prove it to others? My belief in a deity is not dependent on mass consensus. In fact, I believe that knowledge of such can only be experienced subjectively--empirical facts are a product of the material world, so unless 'God' is composed of matter/energy (a matter up for debate), there should be no expectation of empirical date. Regardless, lack of empirical data does not render the subjective data valueless.

Quote:

Is that what God did to you and that's why you believe?



No need to make this personal. I'm not claiming this as my own personal experience--I don't have an unquestioning faith in any deity, nor do I believe myself to have rational reasoning for belief--but I have an open enough mind to contemplate things outside of my own experience.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19240819 - 12/07/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Rational reasons to be religious....?




None


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: skatealex2]
    #19240821 - 12/07/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

skatealex2 said:
Rational reasons to be religious....?




LOL


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Synthe]
    #19240836 - 12/07/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Rationality is as overrated as Religion.

the truly rational mind, can contemplate without feeling the need for easy answers. the question of "does God exist" has been one of the ages, and still people ponder about the relevance of such a question...

it's BEEN PONDERED THROUGHOUT ALL TIME AS HUMANS ON EARTH; and by plenty of people RATIONALLY. so, i'd say BOTH PARTIES ARE AT FUCKING FAULT; SO FUCKING GODDAMN IT STFU.

both parties are FUCKING INGRATES.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19240855 - 12/07/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

you people? :angrykidface:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240865 - 12/07/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

*sigh* ok fine, you PERSON, YOU WIN!  :youdidit:

Quote:

Rationality is the quality or state of being agreeable to reason. An action, belief, or desire is rational if we ought to choose it




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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19240894 - 12/07/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Verification in almost all cases is peer reviewed, so a single experience wouldnt convince anyone other than myself thanks to the dozens of psychological biases in play.



Who said anything about trying to prove it to others? My belief in a deity is not dependent on mass consensus. In fact, I believe that knowledge of such can only be experienced subjectively--empirical facts are a product of the material world, so unless 'God' is composed of matter/energy (a matter up for debate), there should be no expectation of empirical date. Regardless, lack of empirical data does not render the subjective data valueless.

Quote:

Is that what God did to you and that's why you believe?



No need to make this personal. I'm not claiming this as my own personal experience--I don't have an unquestioning faith in any deity, nor do I believe myself to have rational reasoning for belief--but I have an open enough mind to contemplate things outside of my own experience.




As I said, proving it to other people is pretty significant in the realm of rationality.

If you want to believe, for whatever reason, that's fine. But it's not rational.

Example time: a girl from a small town decides to go to the city for the first time. She gets mugged. Second time she goes she gets stabbed. Third time raped.

Now in her mind, it seems rational to stay the fuck out of the city, but most other people understand that it's a shitty coincidence. So yes, in her mind it makes sense, but in the grand scheme of things there's no reason to think something terrible will happen every single time you enter a metropolitan area.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240906 - 12/07/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

aka irrational fear


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240928 - 12/07/13 01:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

without that "irrational fear" we'd have no "rational things" and we'd still be bleeding, bludgeoning and raping our way through life.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #19240963 - 12/07/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
As I said, proving it to other people is pretty significant in the realm of rationality.



Actually, rationality is a quality attributable to an individual--the ability to prove your rationality to others is helpful in the transmission of knowledge and in our peer review tradition, but says nothing towards whether one is rational or not.

Meditation is a process of rationalizing, of internal reason, and despite my inability to demonstrate the information I find to others, the state of my mind during meditation is that of a rational one.



Quote:

Example time: a girl from a small town decides to go to the city for the first time. She gets mugged. Second time she goes she gets stabbed. Third time raped.

Now in her mind, it seems rational to stay the fuck out of the city, but most other people understand that it's a shitty coincidence. So yes, in her mind it makes sense, but in the grand scheme of things there's no reason to think something terrible will happen every single time you enter a metropolitan area.



Apples and oranges. I'm talking about a situation where all possible doubt has been removed, this girl still has ample reason to doubt the rationality of her conclusion.


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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19240970 - 12/07/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
without that "irrational fear" we'd have no "rational things" and we'd still be bleeding, bludgeoning and raping our way through life.



That's a big statement that needs some explanation/proof.

I used to think all religions were really stupid, and mostly caused people to do stupid things.But now I understand that there are lots of things not explained by science, I just choose not to believe in any of these things.
Religion can also be helpful for people, some people just have lead a better/happier life with certain belief structures or morals to follow.
Also many religions support introspection and viewing one self from an objective stand point which is a great thing, though I know these things can be done without religion I'm positive its less common.

I still think that everyone should question themselves and their believes and not just go along with what they've grown up with, but I don't impose atheism on anyone.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: hecticpicnic]
    #19240986 - 12/07/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

alright, lets go back to the beginning of Homo Sapians, and solve this drastic problem with the practical nature of our former selves, from pre-Antiquity.

oh... shit, i misplaced my time machine. damn


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OfflineJesusIsLord
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #19241609 - 12/07/13 04:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:

Have you ever spoke to anyone that gave you a rational explanation as to why they believe in religion or are religious?





The sum of my experiences and the things I have learned in my 41 years on this earth has led me to believe that everything is interconnected, that all is one, that this one is God and that this God is YOU.

That I believe this isnt just in one thing, its in all things combined. Its in the beauty of a dragonfly. Its in science believing there was a big bang, which formed hydrogen, which formed stars, which burned this hydrogen to ashes, which clumped down to form planets and this ashes consolidated to self replicating molecules which inevitably evolved to beings gazing upon and questioning the universe. Its in the knowing smile of an old couples faces after a lifetime of being together, its in the fact that if you think of a word that you havent heard for years intently, it starts popping up all around you in the subsequent weeks. Its in the deep peace that comes over many people right before their death. Its in the way some trees twist every single leaf of their bodioes towards the sun for getting the most exposure it its rays, its in how the diameter of the moon is about 300 times less than that of the sun but its also about 300 times further away, so that during an eclipse the moon fits exactly over the sun without either being significantly smaller or larger, its in the cruel beauty of destruction after the magnificence of creation, its in all the cosmological constants being just right for an universe with stars, planets and humans, a one in a googol chance. It is in big things and little things, in matter, feelings and concepts.

Its in so many things, but not in any particular one more so, but rather in all of them.




Not to be a dick but there are simple scientific explanations for all that.

You're getting all American Beauty on me when really it's just a goddamn bag floating in the breeze.



Wiccan_seeker's intuition is dancing and beautiful.

Your logic and rational reasons are cold and dead.

Not to be a dick or anything :taco:


--------------------


And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.


Edited by JesusIsLord (12/07/13 04:05 PM)


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: JesusIsLord]
    #19241641 - 12/07/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Latin Mass is awesome, almost makes me want to be Catholic!



Lmao it reminds me of the Godfather.


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OfflineB0b0
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: Robo] * 2
    #19242397 - 12/07/13 08:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

A sense of community and or social scene, yes some people go to church just for the people.

A guide path for self improvement, for instance some people feel more ground when they go to church and or practice a religion.

Religious freedom, in my country you can practice whatever bat-shit-crazy thing you want and that's plenty fine with me long as I can say whatever I want.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Rational reasons to be religious....? [Re: B0b0]
    #19242548 - 12/07/13 08:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it doesn't necessarily have to have much to do with the "supernatural" aspects at all. It's a way of surrounding yourself with people who value similar things in life (potentially at least.)


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