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GoldenEye
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Registered: 05/24/13
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Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual
#19231901 - 12/05/13 03:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have recently felt the call of ayahuasca getting stronger and stronger.
I have easy access to two kinds of ceremonies.
1. Santo Daime church ceremony 2. Shaman from Peru flown in to host traditional ceremonies
Santo Daime is much cheaper (I am quite poor) and more regularly available but I am a bit worried about the religious part of the experience. I am an atheist and dont have positive asociations with any Christian elements that may be present in their ceremonies.
Do you think it matters?
Have you been to a Santo Daime ceremony without identifying with their religious views? How did that go?
Any experience or thought would be helpful
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19232189 - 12/05/13 05:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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From what I hear santo Diame has far stricter traditions. My guide used to work with them before doing the Peruvian ceremonies and said they were very rigid. From my experience with them peruvian ceremonies are far more geared to the average joe though you may still have to settle for a little religion
Edited by JacksonMetaller (12/05/13 05:01 PM)
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: JacksonMetaller]
#19234846 - 12/06/13 01:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I had a feeling they would be. Do you have any idea as to what he meant by rigid?
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19235068 - 12/06/13 03:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said: I had a feeling they would be. Do you have any idea as to what he meant by rigid?
Like, no sitting down. Everyone stands and sings perfectly on tempo. It just seems very robotic
When he was actually working with them they would have extremely intense initiation ceremonies. Like this one time they drank 32 ounces (which is a hell of a lot of ayahuasca) and climbed 1/3 of the way up a mountain, then drank another 32, and again... And one last time when they got to the top
Basically they just take that shit super serious. I don't know how they are to those who are just partaking once or twice though. But with a pachamama circle it's much more relaxed. They encourage you to sit and sing but half the people end up stretched out on their backs completely out of touch while the shaman guides it with music. Also, the music is written by people who have partaken in the ceremonies so you have a very diverse mix so it doesn't really become overbearing on any religious values
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: JacksonMetaller]
#19235131 - 12/06/13 04:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Very helpful!
I already find the fact that everyone has to wear white a bit scary. I guess I should go for option number 2.
I wonder what Spacerific has to say about this as he seems to be advising Santo Daime ceremonies around this board.
I should him.
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19235150 - 12/06/13 04:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said: Very helpful!
I already find the fact that everyone has to wear white a bit scary. I guess I should go for option number 2.
I wonder what Spacerific has to say about this as he seems to be advising Santo Daime ceremonies around this board.
I should him.
Yeah, don't take my word for it 100%. I haven't dealt with Santo Daime, only pachamama. But just based on my experiences and what i've seen of the other, pachamama is far more fitted for an atheist. You still might run into "spirit" talk and all that, but don't let it get to you the way i did. You have to see their words very metaphorically. My first time i let it alienate me and it screwed my trip up. My second time i tried to just have faith in the experience and realized a lot of their talk was just metaphorical, not dogmatic. I guess they're a bit new age in that sense, so if you're not into that you just have to put down the stigma for a bit and you'll see the truth behind their words a little clearer.
I used to have a real problem with hippie jargon because it never seemed to make much sense until i started viewing it in the context of my own beliefs and it seemed to click a lot better. So don't get hung up on that if you can avoid it.
So you're flying this guy in from peru? Do you mind if i ask what region you live in? Or state if that's okay? There are shamans around here, though they are difficult to find since it's not legal... But i had no idea you could actually fly one in from peru
Edit: just saw you were from amsterdam... Don't know why i assumed US
Edited by JacksonMetaller (12/06/13 04:23 AM)
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: JacksonMetaller]
#19235400 - 12/06/13 07:23 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm not the one flying people in.
There are semi legal groups in the Netherlands that host their own ayahuasca and iboga ceremonies.
Twice a year they fly in some of their friends from south america to host ceremonies.
This is one: http://www.degewijdereis.nl/thuispagina-ayahuasca-transformatie-op-zielsniveau/
Maybe your browser does a good enough job translating the page
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19235406 - 12/06/13 07:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
GoldenEye said: I'm not the one flying people in.
There are semi legal groups in the Netherlands that host their own ayahuasca and iboga ceremonies.
Twice a year they fly in some of their friends from south america to host ceremonies.
This is one: http://www.degewijdereis.nl/thuispagina-ayahuasca-transformatie-op-zielsniveau/
Maybe your browser does a good enough job translating the page 
Well in that case i vote 100% in favor of that option
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muistrue
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19236844 - 12/06/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why do people who want to experience ayahuasca look for a ceremony or shaman to facilitate the experience? When people want to experience shrooms or DMT they grow them or extract it so what's the difference with ayahuasca? Brew your own and bypass all the shadiness that inherently comes along with shamans and bullshit rituals.
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: muistrue]
#19236871 - 12/06/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I understand your point.
However, even when I do mushrooms I can not escape the question of set and setting.
I have always felt the urge to experience psychedelics in a more traditional medicinal setting. I believe it will do nothing more but put me in a concious, focused mindframe with intentions of healing. I think this mindframe will probably influence the experience a fair bit, allowing me to delve deeper maybe.
I also like to get introduced to new substances before I experiment with them myself.
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misterjingo
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19236877 - 12/06/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Bring an atheist and feeling the same pull too, I was recently on the verge of booking into a Netherlands based Daime ceremony. The religious aspects of the ceremony don't bother me as I'd take them more as myths and ritual stories. After chatting to some people who have experienced Daime ceremonies, I decided to hold off and find a Peruvian based shamanic ceremony. It sounded a bit strict whereas the Peruvian ceremonies I've read about sound more relaxed.
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: muistrue]
#19236982 - 12/06/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
muistrue said: Why do people who want to experience ayahuasca look for a ceremony or shaman to facilitate the experience? When people want to experience shrooms or DMT they grow them or extract it so what's the difference with ayahuasca? Brew your own and bypass all the shadiness that inherently comes along with shamans and bullshit rituals.
Uhhhh no. No no no ayahuasca ceremonies are beautiful and go far beyond the drug itself. In addition they can dose you extremely hard at levels that most people shouldn't be doing alone
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Spacerific
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: misterjingo]
#19237028 - 12/06/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok so about my SD experiences, I would say 100% go for it. YOu may have seen that not only do I advise for Santo Daime ceremonies for anyone in Europe, as an inexpensive quality alternative, but I also advise strongly AGAINST Dance Works. Personal opinion, but I for one will never step anywhere near that robot dance again.
About Christian vibes, to explain a bit: whatever I am religiously, I am definitely not a Christian. I think Christians are bringers of extreme boredom and killers of good vibes and preventers of orgies and nudism and wholesome awesome fucking and love making and collective shroom taking and all that.
That being said, nobody asks you to do anything Christian in a Santo Daime ceremony. They offer a book to sing from if you want one, which I politely refused every time, as I needed my eyes closed for the visions. Nobody gave me dirty looks about it. People are very chill actually.
They sing about Mary and Jesus but they sing in Portuguese. Unless you speak that, to you it will sound like an alien language. I prefer thinking it's ancient Egyptian, and that the ritual is about Horus and Anubis 
The music. The group live music, made all around you. I used to think this is bullshit and useless, as I will be fine with my mp3 and headphones. I was completely wrong. That music and the group experience is a fantastic help in having an awesome, awesome time you will never forget.
To anybody suggesting aya is the same alone on your couch, as it is with 50+ people singing around you, I will say you're flat out wrong. It's like watching TV at home, as opposed to going to a real concert or festival. Maybe it's the same song being played, but there's no contest which one will move you more and be more memorable.
I went there 4-5 times already, and will do so again. I am sold on the group element and live music. If I could start my own group, I'd change a few things around (like bring in more color, not all white) but I would definitely use music in the same way the Santo Daime do.
I will try it with a shaman as well, sooner or later, so I can compare, but it should be pretty obvious that no one shaman singing his icaros can give the amazing vibes of 50+ people singing together, shaking their maracas in unison around you, etc. No matter how good one pianist, you can't compare one guy to a whole orchestra.
For 30 Euro, there's absolutely nothing you can get that ever compares. I'll drop you a PM when I am going next, maybe we can go together
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: Spacerific]
#19237058 - 12/06/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'll drop you a PM when I am going next, maybe we can go together 
This would be great!
I used to be all like wooohooo new experience, let's go!! I'm not sure what happened to me but I got a bit more cautious throughout the years...
The choice boils down to:
30 euro's for diving into something that feels quite far out of the comfort zone
225 euro's for something I have very, very good feelings about
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19237069 - 12/06/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It would be more than 30 euro's, I don't own any white clothes
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Spacerific
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19237148 - 12/06/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well you show up at C&A get some light colored pants, and get some white shirt or t-shirt. They're not picky as to what clothes, as long as they're not too colorful.
For me it was 30 Eur plus freaking international flights, with stopovers in Italy, and I still went and did it, repeatedly 
I for one, knowing what I know, would absolutely take the 7-8 SD ceremonies over the 1 shaman one. I mean that's more than a year worth of tripping. What on earth could that shaman possibly do, that would warrant the extra cash spending on your end?
I've had my initial bad vibes as well about Portuguese (I don't like it as a language, don't like the way it sounds) and also about Christianity. But after the very first ceremony my doubts were cleared, I love that stuff, very glad we have it in Europe.
Oh and I would go to both in your place, take the 30 eur now, take the 225 eur later, if you have the money, feel like it etc.
My main reason for wanting to try it with a shaman is that I want a specific additive that the SD don't have, a specific Shipibo art plant, that's only available in Peru, and needs to be fresh.
For regular Aya, I'd go SD every time, especially if on a budget. Just to get what I'm saying here, these people meet and practice their songs (no aya) regularly, for YEARS, just so they sound really good during the ceremony. Don't let the small price fool you, it's a spectacular tripping venue IMO     
The music sounds like this. You won't think much of it without the aya, but once it kicks in, oh boy! 
/center>
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: Spacerific]
#19237260 - 12/06/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fuck I can hear the damn chanting of Jesus Christo every two seconds haha way to comfort my atheist ass dude... 
You're right about the 30 euros though. The worst thing that can happen is a bad experience (which in mushroom or acid terms have always ended up being useful) or turning Christian for a little while due to subconcious brainwashing. I do appreciate the Christian values so I think I'd forgive myself if this were to happen.
Edited by GoldenEye (12/06/13 04:20 PM)
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Spacerific
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19237328 - 12/06/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dude just take it as a "live music experience" not an aya experience. It's 30 eur, it's basically pizza money. I had to fly over from pretty far away to get it, to you it's a quick train ride and a walk.
It boggles my mind when I see people living in NL and not tripping. Not you, I mean the rest of the country. Legal truffles, legal Aya, I don't know what else one would need for paradise  Don't worry about the Christian stuff man, it didn't increase my love of Jesus, as much as my love of and the skin of naked girls
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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GoldenEye
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: Spacerific]
#19237339 - 12/06/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I also just remembered that I always love people singing about God because they seem to get especially into it... I love the music of the video you posted as well! I've been blasting it for a while now.
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Spacerific
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Re: Ayahuasca - Santo Daime vs. Traditional Ritual [Re: GoldenEye]
#19237680 - 12/06/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The live real thing is magical. My impression was always that I'm flying among stars and all the stars are singing.
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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