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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags?
#19231479 - 12/05/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In a 21-quart pressure cooker, I would use mason jars to pasteurize substrate, but that would pasteurize only a small amount of substrate, so I'm wondering about bags.
Filter patch bags seem to be great for spawn, but strictly for pasteurizing substrate (Coir Vermiculite Gypsum), what are the advantages of filter patch bags compared to oven bags?
My only worry would be having oven bags explode in the pressure cooker or rip/tear after. The filter patch bags don't have the problem of ballooning too much and popping. As long as the oven bag doesn't seal/get stuck closed in the pressure cooker they should be fine, right?
Are there common oven bags that are too weak at the seams that should be avoided? any common brands or sizes that work great?
It seems like filter patch bags are more commonly used, but it seems unnecessary and expensive to get a bunch shipped... any input? any advice on technique or links of people using oven bags?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19231512 - 12/05/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: cronicr]
#19231580 - 12/05/13 02:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Definitely. I've already got that same thermometer probe thanks to him. I think that 6 quart jars in the pressure cooker is a very small amount, and when he uses bags to pasteurize, he uses filter patch bags.
Frank says...
Quote:
One advantage of using filter patch bags is that you will have filtered air exchange during the cooling of the substrate. This isn't really a big deal for coir/verm but with substrates like hpoo or additives like coffee grounds, it never hurts to be as safe as possible.
I'm talking about using only Coir Vermiculite and Gypsum. Would it be good to let the bag of substrate cool in the pressure cooker (maybe with an alcohol-soaked paper towel on the vent) overnight? Even if taken out in the air, it should probably be fine if spawn is added ASAP it seems.
But I've read a few things about oven bags falling apart on people. I think keeping the bag from touching the bottom of the PC should keep it from getting too hot.
Is there anything i'm missing or is the only real advantage of filter patch bags that they can cool down with filtered air after pasteurization (and they seem to be stronger plastic)?
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19240473 - 12/07/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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is a tyvek sleeve really necessary when pasteurizing substrate in an oven bag?
couldn't people just leave the oven bag open with a thermometer probe in there, let it cool in the somewhat clean PC, then spawn the substrate?
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PirateSwazey



Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19240643 - 12/07/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have been using large turkey bags to pasteurize my substrate for awhile. I use a combination of Frank and Fahster's pasteurization methods.
Here's what I do:
•Start with Reynold's turkey oven bags •Put some jar rings on the bottom of your PC •Put the loaded substrate bag in the PC (yes, obvious) •Fill up PC with water till the bag starts to float •Throw the rack that usually goes on the bottom on top of the bag •Put a bowl full of water on top of the rack to weigh down the sub •Stick probe in there and put the lid on •Heat on medium until temp raises 10° as Frank suggested •Cut heat off and start timer for 60 minutes when temp reaches 140°
Make sure to leave the top of the bag outside the PC so water doesn't get in your substrate.
Faht recommended to use 2 bags to keep the bag from melting, but seeing as I've cooked a turkey for hours at 350° in these bags, I never thought about using an extra one.
I also poke holes in the bag when I let it cool overnight, as Fahtster recommended.
Good luck
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19240850 - 12/07/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Generic said: is a tyvek sleeve really necessary when pasteurizing substrate in an oven bag?
No, tyvek sleeves are placed in the bags that are getting sterilized in the PC 
If you have a spare filter patch bag, use it. It's great. If not, oven bags also do in a pinch. I just find them too flimsy.
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: PirateSwazey]
#19240959 - 12/07/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Great, thanks to you both, perfect input.
All I'm wondering now is about how to best cool the substrate to room temperature afterwards...
Quote:
fahtster said:Then I take a clean knife and poke small holes all over the bag about every two inches to let the substrate breathe while it cools... if you don't do this, you'll probably end up with bacteria infestation.. I've had it happen.
Then I just lay them on a cookie sheet to cool with the bag openings loosely folded over like so for about four to six hours.. I mix the bag up every-once-in-awhile so that the center doesn't stay too warm..
I don't really understand why he pokes holes in the bag and lets it sit out in the open air, that seems dirty. Is that because oxygen is good for the pasteurized substrate? or is it to cool more quickly?
Would it be good to let the substrate cool overnight by leaving it in the pressure cooker with no sitting water after all is off (possibly with an alcohol-soaked paper towel covering the valve)?
I'm thinking it sounds good to be put in a clean tote like FrankHorrigan does. Does the amount of air the substrate is exposed to matter?
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19240965 - 12/07/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That is outdated, bad info. I doubt faht would still stand by that quote you pulled 
Bacterial contams on bulk are almost always caused by poor pasteurization (the heating part) and/or bad grain spawn.
My write up cronic linked for you has everything you need to know.
When the time is up, remove the bag from the water and place it in a box to cool. Don't poke holes or mess with anything. And it doesn't have to be a special box, I just use an old cardboard box.
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19240996 - 12/07/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oven bags are porous and will over-saturate your substrate. Also, bulk should never be PC'd.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#19241113 - 12/07/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: When the time is up, remove the bag from the water and place it in a box to cool. Don't poke holes or mess with anything. And it doesn't have to be a special box, I just use an old cardboard box.
sounds great 
Quote:
36fuckin5 said: Oven bags are porous and will over-saturate your substrate. Also, bulk should never be PC'd.
...but filter patch bags are even more porous, right? It doesnt seem to make much of a difference, am I right? Also... Of course bulk substrate should never be PC'd (sterilized), but it is good to use a PC as a big ass pot that never becomes pressurized when pasteurizing
Thank you all
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19241133 - 12/07/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, filter patch bags are not porous except for the filter patch.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#19242428 - 12/07/13 08:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
36fuckin5 said: No, filter patch bags are not porous except for the filter patch.
but my point is that the filter patch makes it more porous than a slightly-porous oven bag. or is it that the filter patch bag is folded so that the filter is effectively sealed... wouldn't that cause pressure to buildup and it pop?
when using a filter patch bag to pasteurize, people generally bring the substrate to field capacity, seal the bag or clamp it closed, but the filter should be available to vent, right?
I realized that a pack of 2 turkey bags at fred meyer is $2... so they cost more than filter patch bags (are there 12- or 20-packs?). Because they're nearly the same price, I think I'll go with filter patch bags.
Now I've got 3 two-year-old filter patch bags from an old trade. It's not unwise to re-use the filter patch bags for pasteurization, right? How many pasteurizations might they last? I'm happy with mason jars for spawn for now because they're re-usable and work well with G2G.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19242436 - 12/07/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Slow down there, you're thinking too much into this.
The filter is irrelevant. The bags are just nice to pasteurize in.
You don't need to filter the air around your pasteurized substrate.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19242482 - 12/07/13 08:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Gallon ziplock freezer bags work well for me. I split 1 brick and 2 qt verm between 3 bags and follow Franks pasteurization tek
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Stromrider]
#19242837 - 12/07/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said: Gallon ziplock freezer bags work well for me. I split 1 brick and 2 qt verm between 3 bags and follow Franks pasteurization tek 
Do you seal those freezer bags or leave them open to vent? Do they expand much if sealed?
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19243695 - 12/08/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I seal them. I leave a small place open in the middle of one to put the thermometer down in. They don't expand at all
When the time had elapsed I throw them all in a bath of ice water to cool them rapidly
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Stromrider]
#19244427 - 12/08/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Stromrider said: When the time had elapsed I throw them all in a bath of ice water to cool them rapidly
I've corrected a lot of people about this but you, Strom? Breaking my heart 
"Cooling rapidly" just means not letting it sit overnight in the hot water bath. People read way too much into that and ran with it.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19244533 - 12/08/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't do it as a part of the pasteurization process. I do it so I can go ahead and spawn the tub an hour later. I have to get most of my Cultivation chores done on Sunday
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Stromrider]
#19244538 - 12/08/13 11:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah, gotcha
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 19 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19244551 - 12/08/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey check your pm's you digger nick! I sent you a message a few days ago
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Stromrider]
#19249074 - 12/09/13 07:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I throw my hot substrate into my tub and mix it till it's cool enough to spawn. Mostly just to make things go quicker.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 19 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#19249091 - 12/09/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I've done that as well
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Stromrider]
#19263362 - 12/11/13 10:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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OK so I pasteurized 2 spawn bags packed full up to about a foot, and squeezed them side by side in the pressure cooker... It looks like most people pasteurize one bag at a time per PC? is that because the walls of the PC get hotter than the water and heat unevenly? That might be what happened Most of the substrate got up to a peak of 158, but on the side the thermometer probe read 178. Would this still be ok?
They're still cooling off in a tub. If the outsides were partially sterilized, as long as the core (and majority) of the bags were properly pasteurized from 140-158 for an hour, would that thermophilic bacteria spread to the outside parts that were heated up to 178? I assume this could only happen after mixing the substrate up in the tub when spawning... but would that be probable for contams to take hold then?
I did that large amount of substrate because I have 8 quart jars that are clean, and I'm planning on using those to spawn to a large 105-quart tub; putting all my eggs into one basket. It would probably be wiser to use a smaller tub, or two mini-monos (already available, but require more attention i think) with a larger amount of spawn in proportion to substrate, hmm...
what would you all do with this partially sterilized substrate and 8 jars of spawn?
Edited by Generic (12/11/13 10:52 PM)
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PirateSwazey



Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19263756 - 12/12/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey dude.
Tough to say about your sub... I would still use it but that's me.
I believe you need to go over 180° for 10 minutes or so to start sterilizing it though.
Quote:
Generic said: what would you all do with this partially sterilized substrate and 8 jars of spawn?
I'd spawn 6 of em and G2G the others into 20-25 more jars
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: PirateSwazey]
#19263871 - 12/12/13 12:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Your substrate isn't partially sterilized. It's pasteurized.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#19263952 - 12/12/13 01:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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nice  thanks
is it not ideal to pasteurize two bags in one pressure cooker, though? It seems much better than doing one at a time and waiting an extra 2-3 hours. did i get lucky or is there really no problem? it sure is easy and time-efficient to pasteurize a bunch of substrate
Quote:
I'd spawn 6 of em and G2G the others into 20-25 more jars 
These jars are already on G3, meaning they started from MS, then have been G2G transferred twice. I've really got reconsider my sterile technique, I've had a 75% contamination rate
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PirateSwazey



Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#19263969 - 12/12/13 01:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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They're fine to continue G2G.
From what I've noticed it takes me about 5 generations before I really notice the myc slowing down 
I've got one culture that's on its last generation from a syringe that I started growing out back in late august.
As for your sterile technique... you'll get better as time goes by... working with agar helps a lot as well.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,270
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19290185 - 12/17/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: That is outdated, bad info. I doubt faht would still stand by that quote you pulled 
Bacterial contams on bulk are almost always caused by poor pasteurization (the heating part) and/or bad grain spawn.
My write up cronic linked for you has everything you need to know.
When the time is up, remove the bag from the water and place it in a box to cool. Don't poke holes or mess with anything. And it doesn't have to be a special box, I just use an old cardboard box.
Yeah, I think the reason that I had to do that was the shear amount of substrate I was pasteurizing. I'm guessing that some the middle of my substrate didn't get pasteurized because it was so thick. Poking the holes in the bag didn't let the totally unpasteurized sit without air; letting the bacteria grow. It worked for what I was doing, but it wasn't the best route to go. nowadays I'd pasteurize in smaller amounts... probably just do more bags (so the thickness is much much less) or just go with the jar method via frank's write-up and lower the times dramatically. I don't have time right now to fix it in my thread, but I will when I get a chance. I did a lot of shit weirdly lol... it worked at the time. Maybe I'm just a lucky dood. Many better methods have been developed since.. Frank's work is a great place to start for that.
faht
Edited by fahtster (12/17/13 07:25 PM)
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PirateSwazey



Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: fahtster]
#19290265 - 12/17/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey faht,
Nice to see you again. Thanks for clearing that pokey thing up
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: PirateSwazey]
#19290482 - 12/17/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Generic
Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 176
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: cronicr]
#19348766 - 12/30/13 09:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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when pasteurizing filter patch bags, one of them got soaked with water. the only thing i can think of was that because of poking a hole in the bag to probe it with a thermometer, water must have dripped in, but it seems like a ton of water.
Also, the other bags that weren't soaked seemed to have dried out. Is it bad practice to poke a hole through the plastic to put the thermometer in? I've seen in pictures the thermometer just poked into the side/top... would it be better to put the probe through the top of the bag's opening?
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Hereigrow
Stranger

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Re: Going to start pasteurizing in bags. Oven bags vs filter patch bags? [Re: Generic]
#26512818 - 03/02/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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It works in the oven?
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