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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: something cool]
#19265176 - 12/12/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
something cool said: You missed that the water in the example was the metaphor for a cure, and not the car. The car would be the metaphor for cancer, with it's fuel being the metaphor for the cure. To argue that companies would make money selling cars that run on water would be to argue that Pharma would make money selling cancer to people who don't have cancer. You aren't following.
I'm doing my best not to belabor this argument, so I'll try and wind it down since we just don't agree.
If water cured cancer, what do you think would happen to the estimated, 100 billion dollar water industry? I bet sales wouldn't go down.
Similarly, if gas became as cheap as water, it would still be bottled and sold, just like water.
Even things that are cheap, abundant, and easily available can (and will) be marketed and sold for profit.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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something cool
meandering

Registered: 01/30/12
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: badchad]
#19265439 - 12/12/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe, badchad, there can be an illustration of how a gas corporation (the parallel to Pharma using the metaphor) would move profits from water becoming the main fuel into their pockets, since the vehicle in this scenario doesn't change along with the shift from gas to water, just as cancer doesn't change from being cancer whether it's approached with treatment 1 or treatment 2.
Unlike water, which is a limited resource with licenses held over who can tap which reservoir/glacier/lake, which uses some heavy equipment to collect, transport, and make ready, and which runs into shortages even in the USA... there would be no shortage on DCA, it has an already established industry price-point, is not supply-limited, and not costly to supply.
Quote:
DieCommie said: His argument makes perfect sense. You are grasping at straws because your position is not defensible.
I'm grasping at the nexus of the argument, not straws. My position isn't much a part of the equation, because I don't have one regarding the continued clarification other than that there is mis-attribution of the elements of the metaphor, and in light of that mis-attribution, the metaphor argues contrary to the purported claim. Perhaps you're chiming in here because your own "boogeyman" argument failed resoundingly, probably from being over-sophisticated for such as myself.
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badchad said: If water cured cancer, what do you think would happen to the estimated, 100 billion dollar water industry? I bet sales wouldn't go down.
Water companies profit. But water companies don't parallel to Pharma, and the potential cure in question would be price-competed against all profitable interests, as opposed to water - for which access is licensed to limited companies based upon available reservoir supplies, sometimes while local populations suffer summer droughts. Without those limited supplies and access to them, the price would be competed into un-profitability. DCA is not needed in a fraction of % of water's volume, its supply is not threatened regardless of need, there is no patent (akin to licensed access) held on it, it is a non-issue to create and supply, and people who aren't Pharma can lower the price in competition or out of goodwill to the point that it is revenue-neutral. It makes water look like platinum in comparison - but, regardless, this still leaves question as to how a price and value that is relatively egregiously inferior to what it would be replacing, and which is not within strong control of Pharma to determine, would be an attractive substitute.
Saying that an attributed cure to become available would be sufficiently lucrative, or comparably lucrative, to replace what it'd be replacing is a big supposition. And there are many possible reasons why it may possibly not be lucrative at all.
Edited by something cool (12/13/13 08:04 AM)
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LungCheeseFungus
Stranger Everyday


Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 75
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: something cool]
#19267681 - 12/12/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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As a small point, let me also mention this.
In the USa, weather you have a real cancer cure or not, if you sell it as such without their blessing and the huge bribes and many years (if ever) that it takes to get it, you will be targeted. They are essentially making it illegal to truly cure cancer. Understand that, and the gears will begin to turn.
Kind of goes into the vaccine debate, but why does such a hugely increased percentage of people have all these cancers in the first place? We didn't used to. Something changed.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19272317 - 12/13/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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> why does such a hugely increased percentage of people have all these cancers in the first place? We didn't used to. Something changed.
People are living longer and diagnostic tools are much better identifying cancer. Until recently, if somebody died from cancer, the death would have been listed as natural causes or old age. It is difficult to know for certain if cancer rates are really higher now than they used to be, though it wouldn't surprise me to find that they are. With the industrial revolution, people have a much higher exposure to a wider range of carcinogens than in the past. At the same time, our ability to treat cancer has vastly improved.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19329383 - 12/26/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
LungCheeseFungus said: They are essentially making it illegal to truly cure cancer. Understand that, and the gears will begin to turn.
Kind of goes into the vaccine debate, but why does such a hugely increased percentage of people have all these cancers in the first place? We didn't used to. Something changed.
Firstly, no it's not illegal to cure cancer. You don't even know what kind of cancers now have curative treatments, do you?
They're not illegal. What you're saying sounds like more conspiracy theory talk...
Also, this whole argument of "there's more cancers than before". Well you do realize that cancer in general is a more recent discovery, right?
And that technology for diagnosis is leaps and bounds in the past few decades than it's ever been before.
Stating that there's been "increases in cancer" without realizing that they're only recently being discovered is like blaming your headlights for making the wall your car ran into"
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: badchad]
#19329387 - 12/26/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
something cool said: Who cares what bottled water sellers make? They're not Pharma, and Pharma doesn't get bottled water revenue same as they don't get revenue from commercially available inexpensive materials that might serve as a cure, which anyone can purchase for themselves - same as they don't get insurance company revenue, being as they're not insurance but Pharma. You're not following this at all.
Let me simplify this for you even further: You can sell almost any product and profit from it, drugs included. There are numerous active pharmaceutical ingredients that are very cheap to purchase in raw form, that are also sold as drugs. For profit.
Examples include acetylsalicyclic acid (aspirin), caffeine (also sold in drug form as no doz) and others. Anyone can purchase these for themselves from a chemical supply company.
The synthesis of a chemical doesn't account for the cost and/or profit of drug. Its the approval process that is costly. I'll say it again for you to follow along: There are lots of cheap chemicals that are readily available to the public that are also sold (for profit) as drugs.
badchad's response pretty much nails it on the dot.
And I'll add another point. Just because big pharma is greedy and sucks, doesn't mean magic beans or random outdated powders cure cancer.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19329415 - 12/26/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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LungCheeseFungus said: When Burzynski was dealing with the FDA, they never denied that he was saving lives and curing cancer. They disputed the legality of it. That alone shows their true colors. And then they took him to court again and again after that.
Lets think. What if I found a way to run my car on water instead of gasoline. I would expect there to be some pretty pissed off rich people. If they were really rich, they may even have people to help keep the cat in the bag. Would they make more money off the petroleum, or by teaching people how to run their autos on water? In the long term, they would make more money off the petroleum. Same deal here. What happens after everyone is cured of cancer?
We all know the old saying. Build a man a fire, and he is warm for the night. Light a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
I see this is the analogy that stemmed this further discussion.
Even though it's not really any kind of rebuttal or relation to my initial reply to you, I'll still talk about this.
The pharmaceutical industry is probably one of the most cut-throat competitive markets out there. Because of the billions of dollars at stake.
This stems immense competition for better products. Simply coming up with a drug that has less side effects and less harm but equal efficacy can mean BILLIONS in profit.
So what you have is a constant race for one thing, who makes the best product. This means what drug will best treat any given condition, not JUST cancers. Which drug increases survival, minimizes side effects, etc etc.
If you look at the history of pharmaceutical companies and their success, it all boils down to one thing: The best treatment will always make the most money.
I can point out numerous examples of this.
The pharmaceutical industry is NOT some sort of cooperative among people to impede medical progress for cures. That's the furthest thing from the truth.
It's literally a constant arms race on who can treat what better, faster, etc. I KNOW this because I work in cancer drug development and direct studies that companies use for FDA approval.
I literally work with two of the biggest titans in cancer drug research, in the top research institute in the country.
If you have any questions about what kind of work is being done, then ask away. But to label my job with these false ideas and conspiracies is just dumbfounding to me.
How people come up with these kinds of theories and chose to BELIEVE in them is what baffles me.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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Altered
Stranger


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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#19330972 - 12/26/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Naked Mole rats are immune to cancer, but they are blind...and they dont have hair... So what if they find the cure to cancer, but you go blind?
I heard apple cider vinegar can prevent/cure cancer, & I heard cannabis oil cures melanoma.
Who knows really... /:
There are genes that people have that make them more susceptible to cancer. Which means they have to stand very far away from microwaves and be careful what chemicals they put inside their bodies to ensure that their cells don't get confused and accidently make cancer.
-------------------- .•*º*•.Floating Endlessly in the Expanse.•*º*•.
Edited by Altered (12/26/13 10:46 PM)
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poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator



Registered: 01/08/03
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? *DELETED* [Re: Altered]
#19332833 - 12/27/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
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Altered
Stranger


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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: poke smot!]
#19337998 - 12/28/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Of course... Money, big business, Pharma. industry...
CEO's.. corporations, mass consumption, consumerist society.
Ect.
>>everyone is healthy >>hospitals go out of business >>health occupations would be unnecessary
-------------------- .•*º*•.Floating Endlessly in the Expanse.•*º*•.
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something cool
meandering

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: Altered]
#19338757 - 12/28/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: Altered]
#19344374 - 12/30/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Altered said: Naked Mole rats are immune to cancer, but they are blind...and they dont have hair... So what if they find the cure to cancer, but you go blind?
I heard apple cider vinegar can prevent/cure cancer, & I heard cannabis oil cures melanoma.
Who knows really... /:
There are genes that people have that make them more susceptible to cancer. Which means they have to stand very far away from microwaves and be careful what chemicals they put inside their bodies to ensure that their cells don't get confused and accidently make cancer.
The whole "cannabis oil cures cancer" propaganda was absurd. I've seen those images that they claim were melanoma that cleared away with cannabis oil.
It's quite sad actually that people are bent on spreading misinformation like that (not eluding to you, but to those who started that rumor)
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: Altered]
#19344378 - 12/30/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Altered said:
Ect.
>>everyone is healthy >>hospitals go out of business >>health occupations would be unnecessary
That's kind of an absurd thing to say. You act like illnesses are a production of for-profit corporations instead of you know....nature.
Death and illness are inevitable, no matter how pure of a life you choose to live.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,672
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: Altered]
#19345159 - 12/30/13 06:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Altered said: I heard apple cider vinegar can prevent/cure cancer, & I heard cannabis oil cures melanoma.
I heard your brain is riddled with holes.
Quote:
Who knows really... /:
You don't, that's for sure.
Sorry about picking on you so much, but boy, do you spout inane nonsense all the time. This is the Science forum. I suggest you try your luck in the Spirituality section and/or the Conspiracy forum. Seems like this is not a place where you fit in very well. Sorry again.
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LungCheeseFungus
Stranger Everyday


Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 75
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: koraks]
#19349558 - 12/31/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"How people come up with these kinds of theories and chose to BELIEVE in them is what baffles me. "
Likewise.
In the federal governments own studies, cannabis has anticancer properties.
People have been cured of many/most kinds of illnesses through time by natural means. Everyone has their time to leave their body ("die"), though now for many people it's an agonizing and terrible experience. Now a days it's the tylenol approach. Your body is telling you something is wrong, through pain, so let's just try to ignore the pain and the problem causing it.
The idea that people were too ignorant to know they had cancer before modern medicine came along, is incredible. You may not know right away, but you will know. BUT, aside from that, cancer rates have exploded in the last 50 and 100 years. Detectable, observable, curable cancer.
So, anyone who says they work in the cancer business should have already seen Burzynski: Cancer Is Serious Business. In fact, I think most everyone should see this movie. Because the implications are vast, and make obvious the medical tyranny that so many will suffer from in this day. I suppose the makers of the movies believe that also, and that is why they have made it free to watch online, no signup or anything. They apparently aren't fueled by greed, as has become expected from most people today.
But to the skeptics, I understand it is indeed easier to believe...something other than this truth, because doing so is the only real way to avoid some startling revelations. To each their own. Myself, I took the red pill.
Interestingly, this isn't the only cure or preventative for cancer.
-------------------- If you have not found something worth dieing for, you have found nothing worth living for. The most effective barrier to knowledge, is the illusion of it. Is there any long time member here that used to have the handle "Mr. Cool" elsewhere? PM me.
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19356492 - 01/01/14 10:45 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
LungCheeseFungus said:
Now a days it's the tylenol approach. Your body is telling you something is wrong, through pain, so let's just try to ignore the pain and the problem causing it.
I don't think your knowledge of pharmaceuticals is sufficient, if this is what you believe.
This IS the science forum afterall, not the conspiracy theory forum.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
Edited by LiquidSmoke (01/02/14 06:58 PM)
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19356498 - 01/01/14 10:47 PM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
LungCheeseFungus said:
In the federal governments own studies, cannabis has anticancer properties.
On pitri dishes and statistically insignificant animal studies. They've failed to show any promise in clinical trials so far. And it's been a couple decades.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LungCheeseFungus
Stranger Everyday


Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 75
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#19357238 - 01/02/14 03:49 AM (10 years, 29 days ago) |
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Keep digging. The facts are there. Along with the history.
-------------------- If you have not found something worth dieing for, you have found nothing worth living for. The most effective barrier to knowledge, is the illusion of it. Is there any long time member here that used to have the handle "Mr. Cool" elsewhere? PM me.
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LiquidSmoke
My title's cooler than yours DBK

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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LungCheeseFungus]
#19360834 - 01/02/14 09:30 PM (10 years, 28 days ago) |
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This is the Science Forum, not the Conspiracy Theory forum.
If you want to talk science, then do it here. But all that other "dig deeper" and "read between the lines" discussion goes over there.
I'm here to talk science of pharmaceuticals. You seem more interested in preaching your conspiracy theory beliefs.
-------------------- "Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers. Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts. Who smokes tha blunts? We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back
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LungCheeseFungus
Stranger Everyday


Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 75
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Re: Cancer cured, but no big pharma profit to be made = no store availability? [Re: LiquidSmoke]
#19364167 - 01/03/14 04:24 PM (10 years, 27 days ago) |
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So the belief that a headache is a sign of disharmony in your body, or being able to read history books and studies, is a sure sign of being a conspiracy theorist? Gotch. Am I a witch too?
I watched an interesting documentary the other day. American Drug War 2: Cannabis Destiny. It shows the anticancer properties of cannabis.
-------------------- If you have not found something worth dieing for, you have found nothing worth living for. The most effective barrier to knowledge, is the illusion of it. Is there any long time member here that used to have the handle "Mr. Cool" elsewhere? PM me.
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