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Offlineakira_akuma
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Form of the Good
    #19185254 - 11/25/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_of_the_Good

"Plato writes that the Form (or Idea) of the Good is the ultimate object of knowledge, although it is not knowledge itself, and from the Good, things that are just, gain their usefulness and value. Humans are compelled to pursue the good, but no one can hope to do this successfully without philosophical reasoning. According to Plato, true knowledge is conversant, not about those material objects and imperfect intelligences which we meet within our daily interactions with all mankind, but rather it investigates the nature of those purer and more perfect patterns which are the models after which all created beings are formed. Plato supposes these perfect types to exist from all eternity and calls them the Forms or Ideas. As these Forms cannot be perceived by human senses, whatever knowledge we attain of the Forms must be seen through the mind's eye (cf. Parmenides 132a), while ideas derived from the concrete world of flux are ultimately unsatisfactory and uncertain (see the Theaetetus). He maintains that degree of skepticism which denies all permanent authority to the evidence of sense. In essence, Plato suggests that justice, truth, equality, beauty, and many others ultimately derive from the Form of the Good."

discuss.

i was trying to remember this dude's name... so i took a walk, when i realized i would just be trying to think of this guy's name, with it on the tip of my tongue, and it would be pissing me off everytime i thought of the predicament. so i went for my walk and lo and behold, it just popped into head after trying to remember his face as an older man; for whatever reason...something in my minds eye made the connection i needed to remember his name. me and my friend were discussing Form of The Good, from Republic before this happened. it reminded me of the conversation.

have you ever had a good idea from nowhere?

can anyone explain Form of the Good further for me? my friend is just learning this stuff now, and i however, am not really familiar with it... so i'm wonder if one of you can help me.

EDIT: the way i see it, the ultimate good is derived of "striving". justice is the pursuit of that "strive", and this gives way to invention, innovation, and ideals. or maybe i should say, the striving is derived from the ultimate good; which is beyond "being" or "knowledge". i probably shouldn't be talking about this at all, but yeah, if i don't try...

PS: i think the person who first said "i'm turning a new leaf" had the right idea here.

feel free to discuss any "form" you desire to extrapolate from.


Edited by akira_akuma (11/25/13 01:42 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19185435 - 11/25/13 04:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

All good. :laugh:

I guess.:laugh:

Whatever one wants.:laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander]
    #19185459 - 11/25/13 04:27 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The guy's name might have been in the World of Forms and your mind sought it out, but this doesn't necessarily mean it relates to the Form of the Good in particular and not rather the Form of Your Mate's Name.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19186437 - 11/25/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think this 'form of the good' can also be described by the word/idea/concept of 'icon', greek, εἰκών, eikōn. Plato did put it into the realms of the ideas.
Somehow it's like Kant's categorical imperative (ideal) and even fits with the 'iconization' of G*D, as well as with the icons on your screen.

(Darned, I searched the web for the connection about 'icon' and 'Plato' but didn't find it - hell :wtf:)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (11/25/13 11:25 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander]
    #19186786 - 11/25/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
The guy's name might have been in the World of Forms and your mind sought it out, but this doesn't necessarily mean it relates to the Form of the Good in particular and not rather the Form of Your Mate's Name.



you're right, but still, interesting notion; how my mind sought it out, and only found it from nowhere. when i was thinking about his name, it wouldn't come to me; and when i stopped it came.

this thread is more about others discussing their opinions, less about me objectifying my experience.
Quote:

Icelander said:
All good. :laugh:

I guess.:laugh:

Whatever one wants.:laugh:



yes; but only if it's just... otherwise people will strike down your attempts to feed and garnish it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19186945 - 11/25/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"just" what?:laugh:

just is a matter of opinion, my just goes so far into justworthynessness that it scares the shit out of most :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander]
    #19186977 - 11/25/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

you create the just. by striving, what's just becomes justworthy. people have to accept what's justworthy, if only for the fact of it's righteousness. it might not always lead to knowledge, but on the path to the truth, knowledge forgoes righteousness. so your striving seeks a "just path", to acknowledge the reason for your striving. which is it's righteousness.







maybe...


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19186988 - 11/25/13 01:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

your means are clearly out of all being evil

you make good what is right, as if right is something to eat

or something to use for positive existence needs

right is clearly only the free existing value, that value is its existence freedom, that freedom is existence value, that existence is freedom value or the constant value of that free presence fact

so what you are calling good is not good, it is else rights
that has no relation with you at all

what is related to you is you, and you cannot be good to you, which prove how good in the mean of being good do not exist, so is never right

good is to the concept of right needs, like what the fact of being still, could need to feel good or being positive thing, to taste the reality of existing value in senses

so good is an individual need to be in touch with the nature of positive facts

like who says that good is to help the poor is total nonsense in truth
or that good is what fight pleasures ...

good is the positive taste, like the taste of being nice is good, the taste of doing something useful is good, and what doesn't taste good is not good at all... so discipline or self control or authority or fighting own senses... this is not good at all, it is negative forces, good is what is never forced what is free end positive ...

you should recognize all in any objective perspective as superior thing, so positive independent source of its own fact value

which is never good

right is never good like superiority is never good because it is free out of all, so never a sense or a touch of else,

right is never good because right is never through the concept of needs

needs must be right so relatively, but right never need anything, right is always free positive source as constant fact being
right is superior to truth as it could be truth reasons, freedom true superiority, so rights don't need to taste anything else or the effective existence being in truth, it is alone truth source, positive superior senses

I am exaggerating of course, but I mean to make the point in facts of existence conception

all what i post is nothing at all, so it is in depth exactly what it looks like, nothing that matters
so don't think that i take it seriously at all

it is just a hobby to invent new concepts of values, to stay free of others beliefs and else superiority claims

like if you invent more positive of what is pointed being positive, you are then right to disregard that positive if you can do better

this is all a way of being independent


Edited by absols (11/25/13 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19186990 - 11/25/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
you create the just. by striving, what's just becomes justworthy. people have to accept what's justworthy, if only for the fact of it's righteousness. it might not always lead to knowledge, but on the path to the truth, knowledge forgoes righteousness. so your striving seeks a "just path", to acknowledge the reason for your striving. which is it's righteousness.







maybe...





I just have to wonder who's version of just is the justiest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander]
    #19187032 - 11/25/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

LOL, no one knows for sure; what is good, that is not made from man, escapes the senses and is forever endowed as knowledge but with no object. it's ceaseless; and by that regard, is unknowable through the impermanence of time.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #19187038 - 11/25/13 01:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well then I'm going to assume I'm the justiest in the land. :imspecial:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander]
    #19187059 - 11/25/13 01:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i'd reckon!  :kimjong:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #19221894 - 12/03/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, Plotinus can explain The Good in The Enneads, translated by Stephen MacKenna. On page xxvi, 'Terminology,' the Divine Triad , which is clearly the philosophical precursor to the Christian Trinity, a brief synopsis is given by the translator:

I. The One


"The First Hypostasis of the Supreme Divine Triad is variously named: often it is simply 'THE FIRST' Envisoged logically, or dialectically, it is THE ONE. Morally seen, it is THE GOOD; in various other uses or aspects it is THE SIMPLE, THE ABSOLUTE, THE TRANSCENDENCE, THE INFINITE, THE UNCONDITIONED; it is sometimes THE FATHER....It is unknowable: its nature - or its Super-Nature, its Supra-Existence - is conveyed theoretically by the simple statement that it transcends all the knowable, pacifically most often by negation of all Quality: thus if we call it the GOOD, we do not intend any formal affirmation of a quality within itself; we mean only that it is the Goal or Term to which all aspires. When we affirm existence of it, we mean no more than that it does not fall within the realm of non-existents; it transcends even the quality of Being....It is not the Creator: it is scarcely even rightly to be called the First-Cause: its lonely majesty rejects all such predication of action: in this realm of the unknowable the First-Cause is, strictly, a lower principle than THE FIRST, which is not to be spoken of in any terms of human thought....We may utter no more of it..."

Of course, this is not self-explanatory here, but really has to be taken along with the following two emanations: The Intellectual-Principle (Nous), and The All-Soul. THE GOOD is the "Goal or Term to which all aspires," and is the Source of all Being, Existence. There are parallels between the Plotinian model and the Kabbalistic model wherein the ten spheres of the Godhead are emanated from subtle to gross via the Lightning Path, and then there is the Serpentine Path of return to the ONE. The book Kabbalistic Metaphors by Drob illustrates this an other parallels. But, if you want Plato's various ideas presented in a carefully systematic manner, and if you're interested in what Augustine probably had in mind during the years he was a practicing Neo-Platonist, yo'll see how Augustine developed his version of The Trinity through reading The Enneads. You can see why the Eastern Orthodox Church insists on a linear progression of the Holy Spirit from the Son, who in turn emanates ("is begotten") from The ONE ("the FATHER"), while the Augustinian Western Trinity has the Holy Spirit derive from FATHER and SON. Most importantly, both Trinities (the whole Filioque battle was over this silliness), Plotinus underlies Christian trinitarian ideas.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/03/13 10:22 PM)


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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19222622 - 12/03/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

IMO Plato was just full of it, pulling shit out his hat.


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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19222630 - 12/03/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

When you are a pioneer, you are allowed to do that.


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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19223077 - 12/03/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
IMO Plato was just full of it, pulling shit out his hat.





I had some of that when I was a kid and I would mold it into little animals and such.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Form of the Good [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #19223088 - 12/03/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Can you do a giraffe?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #19223358 - 12/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

An ugly one. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19223596 - 12/03/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, Plotinus can explain The Good in The Enneads, translated by Stephen MacKenna. On page xxvi, 'Terminology,' the Divine Triad , which is clearly the philosophical precursor to the Christian Trinity, a brief synopsis is given by the translator:

I. The One


"The First Hypostasis of the Supreme Divine Triad is variously named: often it is simply 'THE FIRST' Envisoged logically, or dialectically, it is THE ONE. Morally seen, it is THE GOOD; in various other uses or aspects it is THE SIMPLE, THE ABSOLUTE, THE TRANSCENDENCE, THE INFINITE, THE UNCONDITIONED; it is sometimes THE FATHER....It is unknowable: its nature - or its Super-Nature, its Supra-Existence - is conveyed theoretically by the simple statement that it transcends all the knowable, pacifically most often by negation of all Quality: thus if we call it the GOOD, we do not intend any formal affirmation of a quality within itself; we mean only that it is the Goal orTerm to which all aspires. When we affirm existence of it, we mean no more than that it does not fall within the realm of non-existents; it transcends even the quality of Being....It is not the Creator: it is scarcely even rightly to be called the First-Cause: its lonely majesty rejects all such predication of action: in this realm of the unknowable the First-Cause is, strictly, a lower principle than THE FIRST, which is not to be spoken of in any terms of human thought....We may utter no more of it..."

Of course, this is not self-explanatory here, but really has to be taken along with the following two emanations: The Intellectual-Principle (Nous), and The All-Soul. THE GOOD is the "Goal orTerm to which all aspires," and is the Source of all Being, Existence. There are parallels between the Plotinian model and the Kabbalistic model wherein the ten spheres of the Godhead are emanated from subtle to gross via the Lightning Path, and then there is the Serpentine Path of return to the ONE. The book Kabbalistic Metaphors by Drob illustrates this an other parallels. But, if you want Plato's various ideas presented in a carefully systematic manner, and if you're interested in what Augustine probably had in mind during the years he was a practicing Neo-Platonist, yo'll see how Augustine developed his version of The Trinity through reading The Enneads. You can see why the Eastern Orthodox Church insists on a linear progression of the Holy Spirit from the Son, who in turn emanates ("is begotten") from The ONE ("the FATHER"), while the Augustinian Western Trinity has the Holy Spirit derive from FATHER and SON. Most importantly, both Trinities (the whole Filioque battle was over this silliness), Plotinus underlies Christian trinitarian ideas.



thanks for all the info in that great post.
i've been noticing more and more the past predilections of this world are all seemingly connected, in one way or another.

it's funny how we're still all fighting in this world, over shit that comes from one place.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Form of the Good [Re: akira_akuma]
    #19224660 - 12/03/13 10:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it's funny how we're still all fighting in this world, over shit that comes from one place.

It not all that funny or I'd be laughing a whole lot more than I do. :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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