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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19222082 - 12/03/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existences. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.



Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?




yes!!!

But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.




if you just purely observe then compassion will arise naturally from that because you will see how people are just confused and really they have no huge cause for concern



I find it is reclaiming the power we assign to "out there" or "outside our self" in the perceptions we have. In many cases we have given a lot of power away to certain people, places, or activities, that resulted in our feeling less than joyful.

Call it what it is and tell the truth about it. Assess the situation and look for your judgments beliefs and opinions. For example is there someone or something or someone in this experience that you think is wrong or bad or should change or be different than what it is? And is it true? And is there a judgment or belief or opinion that is causing you to think that or that is causing you the discomfort in the experience? And what is it? And is it really true? There are a lot of distractions that keep you from focusing on what keeps you from joy and there are pattern that revolve around key opinions and judgments or beliefs you hold. Call it what it is. Your discomfort is based on your reaction or response.

Nothing out there is going to change to make you happier. You're the one that needs to take 100% responsibility and needs to change beliefs or opinions because no one is a victim or anyone because none of it is real anyway. Its only as real as the power you assign to it. Once you reclaim that power based on your assignments based on your judgments, beliefs, and opinions such things as compassion become quaint ideas.

I hope that seems clear, I may not be explaining it as well as I'm thinking it.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222162 - 12/03/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think you explained it quite well...

I might be qouting some of that..


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And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222334 - 12/03/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Problem not of your making = compassion.

Problem of your making = no compassion.

Disclaimer for the mentally deficient  - these are generalities and specific circumstances can (and sometimes do) vary.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleChowder963
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19222362 - 12/03/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lol nvm.


Edited by Chowder963 (12/03/13 02:09 PM)


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OfflineHeadTripVertigo
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222429 - 12/03/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!



you obviously can not differentiate certain things.  not to mention your opinion of most things seems cynical as fuck.  which is bullshit because I am way more cynical than all of your happy asses and I'm calling your bullshit.  what is happening in the world?  :huxleyfacepalm:


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TACOS LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222446 - 12/03/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion.



I'm not Buddhist, but I do find the philosophy to have a very well developed concept of compassion, as it is central to the teachings.

That being said, conventional Buddhism doesn't include the belief that all reality is an illusion, is unreal--this is a common misconception, one that leads many to draw pessimistic or nihilistic conclusions where none were implied--it is not that reality is an illusion--rather it is our fundamental misunderstanding of reality, our delusion produced by ignorance, which creates the illusion--the illusion is not inherent to reality, but to the ignorant mind. Nonetheless, existence is still real--and the suffering of sentient beings is real as well.

In the Buddhist sense, ignorance is equivalent to the identification of a self as being separate from everything else--it consists of the belief that there is an "I" that is not part of anything else--on this basis we think, "I am one and unique. Everything else is not me. It is something different."--from this identification stems the dualistic view, since once there is an "I," there are also "others"--up to here is "me"--the rest is "they"--as soon as this split is made, it creates two opposite ways of reaction: "This is nice, I want it!" and "This is not nice, I do not want it!".

This misconception is the part of reality that is unreal, and is the cause of all suffering.

So if your desire is to live a happy and joyful life, you must understand this truth for how it applies to yourself--because all living beings will suffer--birth, sickness, old age, death--these are four unavoidable forms of suffering--separation from that which we love, contact with that which we hate, unfulfilled desires--these are mental forms of suffering that arise from attachment and aversion--even happiness is impermanent and subject to change, and so has a quality of suffering contained within it--but to realize that our dualistic world view is illusory--that there is no separation between the "I" and the "other", brings an end to desire--which brings about an end of suffering.

The best way to lead a happy life is to understand the nature of suffering, and remove the causes--but this realization also comes with the understanding that there is no real distinction between you and everything else--the I/other dichotomy is no more--and so, at the point where you are fully able to express self-compassion--when you have a deep understanding of the nature of your suffering--is also the point when you understand existence to all be one--and so there is no difference between practicing self-compassion and compassion towards others.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222499 - 12/03/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.




So then, do you think that people such as Nietzsche or Schopenhauer lived meaningless existences simply because they suffered from depression? Arguably the people who have contributed the most to philosophy and art were depressed people.

I also don't understand why you believe compassionate people cannot be happy. They are not antagonistic feelings.


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OfflineDrugsRGood
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19222538 - 12/03/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Lack of compassion is completely wrong and killing society. People live within their own bubbles of joy without caring about problems of their own or others. The problems don't just go away if you toss them on the side, they accumulate.

I've worked as a delivery boy and one day I was sad. This wowen said: BOY you're not happy!

As if life is all sunshine and roses. Wtf.

Being only happy is as bad as being depressed. You either only focus on the good which makes you extremely shallow or you focus on the bad which makes you insane in some ways. Life is a mixture of sadness and joy...

Ride the lows and enjoy the highs.

Not ignore the lows and focus on the highs.


--------------------
Life is an adventure; not knowing what's ahead brings a great sense of anticipation; and meeting women is the reward.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: DrugsRGood]
    #19222549 - 12/03/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There's nothing wrong with compassion, it's one of the things that makes us human.


--------------------


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19223318 - 12/03/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion.



I'm not Buddhist, but I do find the philosophy to have a very well developed concept of compassion, as it is central to the teachings.

That being said, conventional Buddhism doesn't include the belief that all reality is an illusion, is unreal--this is a common misconception, one that leads many to draw pessimistic or nihilistic conclusions where none were implied--it is not that reality is an illusion--rather it is our fundamental misunderstanding of reality, our delusion produced by ignorance, which creates the illusion--the illusion is not inherent to reality, but to the ignorant mind. Nonetheless, existence is still real--and the suffering of sentient beings is real as well.

In the Buddhist sense, ignorance is equivalent to the identification of a self as being separate from everything else--it consists of the belief that there is an "I" that is not part of anything else--on this basis we think, "I am one and unique. Everything else is not me. It is something different."--from this identification stems the dualistic view, since once there is an "I," there are also "others"--up to here is "me"--the rest is "they"--as soon as this split is made, it creates two opposite ways of reaction: "This is nice, I want it!" and "This is not nice, I do not want it!".

This misconception is the part of reality that is unreal, and is the cause of all suffering.

So if your desire is to live a happy and joyful life, you must understand this truth for how it applies to yourself--because all living beings will suffer--birth, sickness, old age, death--these are four unavoidable forms of suffering--separation from that which we love, contact with that which we hate, unfulfilled desires--these are mental forms of suffering that arise from attachment and aversion--even happiness is impermanent and subject to change, and so has a quality of suffering contained within it--but to realize that our dualistic world view is illusory--that there is no separation between the "I" and the "other", brings an end to desire--which brings about an end of suffering.

The best way to lead a happy life is to understand the nature of suffering, and remove the causes--but this realization also comes with the understanding that there is no real distinction between you and everything else--the I/other dichotomy is no more--and so, at the point where you are fully able to express self-compassion--when you have a deep understanding of the nature of your suffering--is also the point when you understand existence to all be one--and so there is no difference between practicing self-compassion and compassion towards others.



That's a lot of theology and preconception. And it all presupposes that life is suffering. It supposes that birth, separation from loved ones, death, and such are suffering. That's all based on a certain perception of experience but that doesn't even matter because it's illusory anyway as are all our perceptions because they exist only as electrical impulses in our perception decoder (brain). There's no light in your brain. Everything you think you see is merely the interpretation of electrical impulses in your visual cortex. Nothing you "see" is far away, its all literally inside of you. Then we might talk about "the ghost in the machine" or what perception and consciousness is but the fact is that everything we think we perceive is merely electrical impulses in our brain. If you'd like to delve into a debate on the finer points of Buddhism I'd be glad to in perhaps another thread or by PM, but I'll just leave it here that life is experience. And there is nothing about th experience that must be classified as suffering and that to me life is not suffering at all and so the premises of Buddhism is wrong, except for the world and body being illusory perceptions.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19223348 - 12/03/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.




So then, do you think that people such as Nietzsche or Schopenhauer lived meaningless existences simply because they suffered from depression? Arguably the people who have contributed the most to philosophy and art were depressed people.

I also don't understand why you believe compassionate people cannot be happy. They are not antagonistic feelings.



I don't know.

If you got on a roller coaster at an amusement park and ride the ride is it meaningless if you don't like it and were scared and tried to change it while you were on it? Is it meaningless if you just enjoyed it for the experience it was. Its a ride. The experience and perception is what you make of it. Any meaningfulness is up to you.

:shrug:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19223355 - 12/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: deCypher]
    #19223432 - 12/03/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?





The use of compassion for me is that it makes me fell good. It is that simple.

All of the other feelings you are asking about are not really relevant to this conversation. Those are just emotions that come with being a human being and you can use them to your advantage or you can let one or all of them consume you


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OfflineDrugsRGood
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19223533 - 12/03/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

The use of compassion is a sense of fulfillment.

Happiness is easily obtained if you are a taker. To give something back, however, is worth so much more. It has substance.


--------------------
Life is an adventure; not knowing what's ahead brings a great sense of anticipation; and meeting women is the reward.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19223657 - 12/03/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?





The use of compassion for me is that it makes me fell good. It is that simple.




So does heroin.

....

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
All of the other feelings you are asking about are not really relevant to this conversation. Those are just emotions that come with being a human being and you can use them to your advantage or you can let one or all of them consume you




And why aren't they relevant, exactly?

Why wouldn't eliminating all the negative emotions I listed overall improve the human experience?  :wellhellothere:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19223892 - 12/03/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
That's a lot of theology and preconception. And it all presupposes that life is suffering. It supposes that birth, separation from loved ones, death, and such are suffering.



Except that there was no theology contained at all--what I wrote was obtained through direct observation, and dealt not at all with concepts of a deity.

Same with the supposed presuppositions, they were arrived at by observation. Are you going to claim that separation from loved ones, illness, old age, death, do not cause any form of suffering for you? The conclusion that all beings will suffer at some point in their life seems to me to be a reasonable one.

Perhaps you could go into detail on how you feel the claim that suffering to be part of life is a presupposition, as I feel that I went into a decent amount of detail for what causes suffering, and ways that suffering manifests itself into our lives--just because it is an article of Buddhism, does not mean denouncing it as theology provides an automatic debunk. I feel that the logic I follow is sound, and any apparent presuppositions are verifiable subjectively, through direct observation, and as such it deserves a better response than the following red herring.


Quote:

That's all based on a certain perception of experience but that doesn't even matter because it's illusory anyway as are all our perceptions because they exist only as electrical impulses in our perception decoder (brain). There's no light in your brain. Everything you think you see is merely the interpretation of electrical impulses in your visual cortex. Nothing you "see" is far away, its all literally inside of you. Then we might talk about "the ghost in the machine" or what perception and consciousness is but the fact is that everything we think we perceive is merely electrical impulses in our brain.



This seems to be besides the point--whether our observation of reality corresponds to an external environment, or it is merely internal electrical/chemical signals, our observation of reality remains unchanged--it is still this reality--and therefore every bit as real in either case--a dream is only known as a dream when one wakes up--I'll ask again, are you a solipsist? Because it seems like you are, and would make sense for how you cannot comprehend the function of compassion.


Quote:

And there is nothing about th experience that must be classified as suffering and that to me life is not suffering at all and so the premises of Buddhism is wrong, except for the world and body being illusory perceptions.



Once again, let me ask you to clarify--you are saying that there is no suffering in life, at all? I mean, if you actually believe this to be true, than yes, once again I can understand your difficulty in comprehending compassion, because I don't think compassion could exist in a world free of suffering--but, I think your claim that the world is empty of suffering to be a little ridiculous, and wonder if you could expand on just exactly how this is so.


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InvisibleChowder963
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19223913 - 12/03/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well controlled sociopathic narcissism = GOD


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Chowder963]
    #19224004 - 12/03/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

no that is called 'megolomania' and it produces a lot of problems for other people.

your avatar is closer to God then that post lol


--------------------
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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineXingu
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19224210 - 12/03/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

highc said:
Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.



Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them. No matter what it is it is deserved and so you should not have compassion for people getting their just dessert. Try  living this attitude for 3 days and tell me if you're happier or not.




So you're suggesting we be in it for and only for yourself? At the end of the day, without compassion for yourself, you will hate yourself, and not sharing even a shred of that fundamental compassion is a selfishness that will inevitably wreck your "joyous existance". Other people are inevitably a part of our existence, in a huge variety of mutually biological, chemical, and psychological ways, and helping those people when we can just comes naturally when people are content ourselves, in my experience.

You seem like you're trolling, either that or you're just a bit oblivious. Try telling someone who just opened up to you and told you they were raped or abused that they deserved it and see how both of you feel afterwards. Do it to certain people and you may wake up on the floor with injuries a couple of minutes later. Compassion is not something that has to be draining.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19224226 - 12/03/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well I'm glad you've been able to verify  all those Buddhist things first hand. If that works for you then by all means full speed ahead. What I find discomforting may very well include those things you mention but it is only my reaction to them and how I choose to respond that can bring suffering. There is nothing inherently good or bad about them or about anything else. Preconceptions, opinions, and beliefs about them are what lead to a reaction that can be described as suffering.

Quote:


This seems to be besides the point--whether our observation of reality corresponds to an external environment, or it is merely internal electrical/chemical signals, our observation of reality remains unchanged--it is still this reality--and therefore every bit as real in either case--a dream is only known as a dream when one wakes up--I'll ask again, are you a solipsist? Because it seems like you are, and would make sense for how you cannot comprehend the function of compassion.



Compassion is a function of judgmentalism. Lets say there is a girl who is 14 and becomes an unwed mother. People may say, oh that poor unfortunate girl. Well it is not unfortunate, it simply is. It is the beliefs, opinions, and judgments of other people that cause compassion for a person that is simply having their own experience. Their experience is different than yours but its not better or worse. The same with death as well. And that is a function of fear, perhaps the most primal fear that drives almost all people, the fear of no self. And that is just a part of the experience neither good nor bad and I neither value life nor fear death. But the opinions, beliefs, and judgments of people lead them to hold certain ideas that cause them discomfort or suffering or may lead them to have compassion for others due to their own opinions, beliefs, and judgments on things they assign power to to have power over their self.

I had to look up solipsism to answer your question. No I'm not one. I view myself as an infinate being having a human experience, like a handicap level in a game. I'm not real but my experience is perceived as real so I should enjoy the game.

Bill Hicks is the philosopher (stand up comic) I identify with most I guess. The ride is a concept I've taken and ran with. We control our reactions in the game or our reaction to the ride and we can suffer or just enjoy it but we didn't build it or direct it but we're on it and its great while it lasts. If we know its a game or a ride then you stop and compassion becomes silly. Changing our judgments, beliefs, and opinions is all it takes to go from fearful and suffering to happy but no matter what you do on the ride you are on it so you might as well get the best attitude. People are too invested in the illusion, what you might call attachments, and that will make you suffer when you lose your precious delusions. But that's a personal choice. Anyway, watch this short bit I personally identify with and it'll clear up any questions about me and solipsism.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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