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Kickle
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rethinking freud 1
#19224164 - 12/03/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In particular his ideas about wanting to screw mom and kill dad. I have always leaned towards there being some truth to this. But after 6+ years with the same woman I'm starting to look at the situation differently.
I'm starting to suspect that while we often find partners similar to mommy dearest, it has little to do with repressed sexuality and much more to do with the earliest associations. Loving words, soft coos, gentle touches, praise, playfulness. These seem more likely as the culprits IMO. I have found traits relating to both of my parents in my partner and I suspect it is because both parents shared the role of caretaker. Both worked full time and so shared the duty. Both gave the signals of love and care. And so I suspect I sought out traits I associated with love and care and arrived at a mixed bag.
any thoughts?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle]
#19224365 - 12/03/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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love freud, but find much of his ideas to be projection
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ZachariasEverlivin
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle]
#19224389 - 12/03/13 09:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Freud had ideas. a;; ideas in psychology are just that. Ideas. Behaviourism by pavlov is a fact. Association and such.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle]
#19224396 - 12/03/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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We all want to kill dad. Or at least for most of civilization that has been true. Zeus knocked off Chronos. It was a fear the elder generation had when the only way land and power was transferred was to the first son. That's still part of the collective unconscious. And we've all been breast fed and maybe have some weird ideas about that. It might be part of human psychology to think that dad is competing for mom's attention. Freud was a pretty smart guy. People like to nit pick his ideas but he's usually right about his analysis. A lot of people are so repressed they won't even admit it to themselves that there is any truth in what he says for anybody.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Edited by Ellis Dee (12/03/13 10:38 PM)
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DisoRDeR
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle]
#19224405 - 12/03/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm not directly familiar with freud, only with some of the criticisms and progressions of his work by others.
That sounds about right on the nurturing side, but what do you make of the killing dad part? I find in my own reflections a desire to overcome the inherited habits of the father, which could be seen as a desire to kill the 'dad' inside.
In my experience there is an oscillation, in a very general sense, between a desire to retreat into comforts and to expand and grow. In the traditional gender roles the mother represents a nurturing, supporting presence, while the father is disciplinarian and controller. Considering the oscillation in this context, one could be said to desire to enter the mother in search of comfort and slay the father, the impediment to exploration and growth.
I can see how, without a variety of gender-role configurations to draw upon, the oversimplification to screw mom and kill dad would have emerged.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: DisoRDeR]
#19225243 - 12/04/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Honestly Kickle, I think that is one of the best idea's that you've posted.
Fathers are generally more hard, and if your getting an ass whoopin it is usually by your father as well, so he represents that hardness, and you mother represents the softness.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



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Re: rethinking freud [Re: teknix]
#19225265 - 12/04/13 03:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe Freud made a freudian slip. He wanted to screw his mother and kill his father!
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Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out



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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle]
#19225563 - 12/04/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: In particular his ideas about wanting to screw mom and kill dad. I have always leaned towards there being some truth to this. But after 6+ years with the same woman I'm starting to look at the situation differently.
I'm starting to suspect that while we often find partners similar to mommy dearest, it has little to do with repressed sexuality and much more to do with the earliest associations. Loving words, soft coos, gentle touches, praise, playfulness. These seem more likely as the culprits IMO. I have found traits relating to both of my parents in my partner and I suspect it is because both parents shared the role of caretaker. Both worked full time and so shared the duty. Both gave the signals of love and care. And so I suspect I sought out traits I associated with love and care and arrived at a mixed bag.
any thoughts?
I agree. I think this has a lot to do with it. I like Freud but I don't think this work on the Oedipus complex is accurate, and perhaps was a projection on his part.
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You are not special
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Freud was a true pioneer and was bound to get some things wrong. Otherwise that would have been the end to it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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quinn
some kinda love


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Posts: 6,799
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Icelander] 1
#19225668 - 12/04/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i've noticed freudian stuff filtering through to my relationship with my parents .. i think though it is just one particular lens with which to view/interpret relationships with
as an interpretation i think it involves strong emotions and so it is easy to mold information to it.. like for example how it is also easy to think everything related to sex
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: rethinking freud [Re: quinn]
#19225678 - 12/04/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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true, although sex is certainly the major league player in life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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quinn
some kinda love


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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Icelander] 1
#19225695 - 12/04/13 08:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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not mine
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: rethinking freud [Re: quinn] 1
#19225701 - 12/04/13 08:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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nor mine anymore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Kickle] 1
#19226180 - 12/04/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Freud was a classicist, and parlayed Sophocles' story, Oedipus the King into the psychological basis of the Oedipal Complex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_the_king Earlier than this piece of paradigmatic Greek tragedy, is the practice of deposing the alpha male, or king, by killing him, and assuming the rights and privileges of the king's harem. Whether one's biological mother is included in this is an interesting bit of psychohistorical inquiry. The Incest Taboo is a later development, and was possibly a natural consequence of observing what kinds of birth defects resulted from intercourse with one's biological mother. Those observations led to the practice of exogamy, but may well have begun with maternal incest. Of course, the Egyptians insisted on brother-sister incest against obvious genetic problems in favor of the symbolic replication of the Osiris-Isis myth. Some of those pharaohs had profound physical disabilities according to what their mummies have revealed. Freud's huge collection of statues was mostly of Egyptian images, but his favorite statue was one of the Greek goddess Athena. His theories were steeped in these antiquities, and fueled with copious amounts of cocaine and nicotine (20 cigars a day, which resulted in mouth/jaw cancer and 36 operations, which led him to the analgesic but OCD-inducing cocaine).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Well at least he wasn't a pot user. That would have been his complete ruin.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: DisoRDeR] 2
#19227177 - 12/04/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
DisoRDeR said: I'm not directly familiar with freud, only with some of the criticisms and progressions of his work by others.
That sounds about right on the nurturing side, but what do you make of the killing dad part? I find in my own reflections a desire to overcome the inherited habits of the father, which could be seen as a desire to kill the 'dad' inside.
In my experience there is an oscillation, in a very general sense, between a desire to retreat into comforts and to expand and grow. In the traditional gender roles the mother represents a nurturing, supporting presence, while the father is disciplinarian and controller. Considering the oscillation in this context, one could be said to desire to enter the mother in search of comfort and slay the father, the impediment to exploration and growth.
I can see how, without a variety of gender-role configurations to draw upon, the oversimplification to screw mom and kill dad would have emerged.
In response to the bolded text, there are many aspects of any patriarchy that I have an urge to destroy. But that is larger than my individual father. And actually my father is so unike most men of his generation that I can see little of that patiarchy in him. He's closer to me in wanting to destroy it as opposed to maintain it. I have an urge to be like my father more-so than to be disparate.
In short I agree with you about growth and change. That is what I take away from the old myths about Zeus killing his dad and seizing power. A new guard rising and the old guard only relenting through decay, death, and waging war.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Icelander]
#19227456 - 12/04/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well at least he wasn't a pot user. That would have been his complete ruin. 
I just read the account of how his gangrene cheek, a supporting, gaping hole, covered by bandages and keeping him in perpetual agony ended. His trusted physician, at Freud's request, overdosed him with two shots of morphine. It was the tobacco that killed him. I truly hate THAT shit. I was born addicted to nicotine, and my parents used smoking as a 'child repellant' since I hated the smell (speaking of 'smell brain,' I probably have intrauterine memories of a toxic womb). Cannabis just made me slow, stupid, and unable to remember my studies. I don't get what is funny about that.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
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It doesn't make sense how they are legal before weed. I recently switched to vaporizing and it tastes way better and is way cheaper, and I think it is probably quite a bit healthier.
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Icelander
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Well at least he wasn't a pot user. That would have been his complete ruin. 
I just read the account of how his gangrene cheek, a supporting, gaping hole, covered by bandages and keeping him in perpetual agony ended. His trusted physician, at Freud's request, overdosed him with two shots of morphine. It was the tobacco that killed him. I truly hate THAT shit. I was born addicted to nicotine, and my parents used smoking as a 'child repellant' since I hated the smell (speaking of 'smell brain,' I probably have intrauterine memories of a toxic womb). Cannabis just made me slow, stupid, and unable to remember my studies. I don't get what is funny about that. 
If you can't laugh at life you gonna cry. You cry and I'll laugh, between us we'll strike the middle path.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Icelander]
#19227630 - 12/04/13 04:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
nor mine anymore.
You and quinn should hook-up. Problem solved!
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zappaisgod
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Are there really people who still grant Sigmund Fraud any credence at all? Really?
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falcon



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The Aristocrats!
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presentusthefuture
Stranger


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Re: rethinking freud [Re: falcon]
#19228778 - 12/04/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you guys think about single parents? Absent mothers/fathers?
I was raised by a single mother growing up and I can tell you that I wear the 'kill daddy' patch proudly on my emotional backpack. I think we all, in some animalistic sense, strive to overtake the family patriarch. If not directly, then indirectly.
I think Freud brought up some interesting points that certainly do hold sway today, some of which is just repackaged from previous eras. Hell, I think cocaine would be a terrific supplement to the turmoils of everyday life if it weren't so damaging to the body...
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: rethinking freud [Re: Icelander]
#19228823 - 12/04/13 08:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll continue to cultivate dispassion towards the world, but admittedly, cruelty, especially towards animals, and extreme sexual titillation, still disturbs my usual 'I don't-give-a-shit about the Miami Heat' attitude. I can imagine the sexual disturbance diminishing when the last drop of fantasy-possibility dies. I don't think I'll ever develop dispassion or divine apatheia toward cruelty, or there wouldn't be anything divine about it. I'll remain as sad about cruelty as you do, and be all the more human for it.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Yeah you have a point. Cruelty towards animals never gets a laugh out of me. Sadness, rage, fury, tears but no laughs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
presentusthefuture said: What do you guys think about single parents? Absent mothers/fathers?
I was raised by a single mother growing up and I can tell you that I wear the 'kill daddy' patch proudly on my emotional backpack. I think we all, in some animalistic sense, strive to overtake the family patriarch. If not directly, then indirectly.
I think Freud brought up some interesting points that certainly do hold sway today, some of which is just repackaged from previous eras. Hell, I think cocaine would be a terrific supplement to the turmoils of everyday life if it weren't so damaging to the body... 
Numbing feelings of abandonment, rage, resentment, loss of self-esteem, and other emotions, just creates a separate but equal problem in life. Now that you find yourself on this forum (welcome, btw), you seem ready to discuss the most pressing thing on your mind. Your's is a therapy issue to be sure, not something that you need to merely solicit opinions for. I mean, you may well find sympathy from others who have suffered abandonment, but be advised that it's not strictly a matter of the father-abandonment. Mothers abandoning their children, often because of drug addiction, was an all too common situation with the adolescents I counseled over 27 years. My ex-wife was profoundly damaged from physical abandonment by a father, but also from emotional abandonment from her Narcissistic Personality Disordered and alcoholic mother. As a object of misplaced rage, I had to leave after 13 years, and she's already divorced her 3rd husband. In the process, she became an alcoholic. Just saying. I don't want to see anyone increase their own suffering, even newbies here.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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presentusthefuture
Stranger


Registered: 09/22/13
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
presentusthefuture said: What do you guys think about single parents? Absent mothers/fathers?
I was raised by a single mother growing up and I can tell you that I wear the 'kill daddy' patch proudly on my emotional backpack. I think we all, in some animalistic sense, strive to overtake the family patriarch. If not directly, then indirectly.
I think Freud brought up some interesting points that certainly do hold sway today, some of which is just repackaged from previous eras. Hell, I think cocaine would be a terrific supplement to the turmoils of everyday life if it weren't so damaging to the body... 
Numbing feelings of abandonment, rage, resentment, loss of self-esteem, and other emotions, just creates a separate but equal problem in life. Now that you find yourself on this forum (welcome, btw), you seem ready to discuss the most pressing thing on your mind. Your's is a therapy issue to be sure, not something that you need to merely solicit opinions for. I mean, you may well find sympathy from others who have suffered abandonment, but be advised that it's not strictly a matter of the father-abandonment. Mothers abandoning their children, often because of drug addiction, was an all too common situation with the adolescents I counseled over 27 years. My ex-wife was profoundly damaged from physical abandonment by a father, but also from emotional abandonment from her Narcissistic Personality Disordered and alcoholic mother. As a object of misplaced rage, I had to leave after 13 years, and she's already divorced her 3rd husband. In the process, she became an alcoholic. Just saying. I don't want to see anyone increase their own suffering, even newbies here. 
Wow, you're good. I guess I am bringing my baggage on here for display. Fishing for sympathy. My mother was a spiteful sort. Cursing her luck of trading her youth for the care of both of her disabled parents and me. Finding hope in her 'career'. Relying on a domesticated, candy-store form of Christianity fueled by incomplete quotes and skewed mother-daughter church memories to keep the engine going.
No wonder I'm attracted to virtuous depressed women. My ex-girlfriend was a conservative Catholic raised virgin. It was like fucking the Virgin Mary wearing a Morrissey t-shirt.
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