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OfflineEllis Dee
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Compassion may be the worst thing in the world * 1
    #19219735 - 12/02/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 4
    #19219750 - 12/02/13 10:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.


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"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Offlinehighc
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 3
    #19219762 - 12/02/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: nicechrisman] * 6
    #19219781 - 12/02/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.





I agree. Having compassion and helping others when I am able is something that brings me great joy. So for me, living a joyous life and having compassion go hand in hand


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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InvisibleSheekle
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: highc] * 3
    #19219784 - 12/02/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.



Quote:

highc said:
Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.



q f t


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: highc] * 1
    #19219794 - 12/02/13 10:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

highc said:
Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.



Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them. No matter what it is it is deserved and so you should not have compassion for people getting their just dessert. Try  living this attitude for 3 days and tell me if you're happier or not.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass] * 1
    #19219814 - 12/02/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.





I agree. Having compassion and helping others when I am able is something that brings me great joy. So for me, living a joyous life and having compassion go hand in hand



For me its just the opposite. I used to do volunteer work for example and I was arrogant to think I made a difference or the world a better place. All I did was make it a slightly different place. It was my egoism and moral judgmentalism in the way of my clarity.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil brought judgment and with it unhappiness. Adam and Eve saw they were naked and so were ashamed. Humans need to get over the habit of judging. Get over the habit of compassion. Its really quite counterproductive. It gets in the way of living, it gets in the way of joy.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: nicechrisman] * 5
    #19219828 - 12/02/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.




itt: people think compassion is the same as pity.

:lolsy:


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AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19219831 - 12/02/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them.





Sorry I happen to be a fan of logic and reality. Bad shit happens to good people all of the time. I do not sit there and obsess over people who have it rough or need assistance so it does not cause unhappiness. That is just life. However in many cases having compassion for my fellow humans makes me very happy. So I do not really have a reason to cast aside compassion when it does not cause me any grief whatsoever


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19219835 - 12/02/13 10:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
It gets in the way of living, it gets in the way of joy.




not for me.

im sorry that you think there is only one correct way to live, and be joyous.

there are as many paths as there are people

my path involves compassion, not pity.

choose your own path, OP


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass] * 1
    #19219850 - 12/02/13 10:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

For me its just the opposite. I used to do volunteer work for example and I was arrogant to think I made a difference or the world a better place. All I did was make it a slightly different place. It was my egoism and moral judgmentalism in the way of my clarity.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil brought judgment and with it unhappiness. Adam and Eve saw they were naked and so were ashamed. Humans need to get over the habit of judging. Get over the habit of compassion. Its really quite counterproductive. It gets in the way of living, it gets in the way of joy.





I do not help people to change the world or make it a better place, I am not delusional you see. I do it for no other reason then that it makes me feel good, so in a way it could be considered selfish.

And the tree of knowledge is something out of a fictional story which has no bearing on the reality of what humans have evolved into. There was no adam and eve so that reference is pretty irrelevant to this conversation. we are talking about real things here


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I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19219862 - 12/02/13 10:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
It gets in the way of living, it gets in the way of joy.




not for me.

im sorry that you think there is only one correct way to live, and be joyous.

there are as many paths as there are people

my path involves compassion, not pity.

choose your own path, OP



Whatever works for you. Lots of ways bro. I just had an epiphanie was all.

But do you think being compassionate makes you a good person? If yes, is that something you were taught by other people?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleJimmy Sage
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #19219879 - 12/02/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!




I don't necessarily agree with the first assumption that we should be joyful creatures, at least not always. If a tragedy happens, we should be sad and fully feel it so that we can get over it and become more joyful because you're stronger.

I also disagree with your definition of compassion (judging by the synonym pity). Pity is a different emotion to compassion, although the dictionary agrees with your synonym. I view pity as more of an egotistical emotion, and compassion to be of understanding and true sympathy.

my 2c

--just noticed a few people have said similar things while i was typing this :P


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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #19219916 - 12/02/13 10:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Whatever works for you. Lots of ways bro.




You should practice what you preach in that you should stop being so concerned with how people should live, and just do what makes you happy. There are many paths to take

And is not you telling us this and enabling us to, in your eyes, live happier, is that not in a way having compassion for us


--------------------
Some art I've made Glass Art Gallery

I was raised a christian and was a stone-faced acid head
- Ken Kesey


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass] * 1
    #19219933 - 12/02/13 10:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Whatever works for you. Lots of ways bro.




You should practice what you preach in that you should stop being so concerned with how people should live, and just do what makes you happy. There are many paths to take

And is not you telling us this and enabling us to, in your eyes, live happier, is that not in a way having compassion for us



:philososloth:

Yes you are right as I find no error in your logic.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #19220073 - 12/02/13 11:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Compassion isn't merely feeling pity for another persons bad circumstances--it stems from the empathy that arrives along with the root understanding that all of existence is connected--compassion is the active desire to relieve the suffering of all beings, everywhere, because you realize they are all part of the same Self.

The Buddha's personal attendant, Ananda, asked him: "Would it be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is a part of our practice?" The Buddha replied, "No. It would not be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is part of our practice. It would be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is all of our practice."


Final note: the ability to practice self-compassion is directly linked to the ability to practice compassion for others--you can't build an understanding of your own suffering without gaining some for the suffering of others as well. If, y'know, you want a selfish reason to cultivate compassion.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19220089 - 12/02/13 11:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them. No matter what it is it is deserved and so you should not have compassion for people getting their just dessert. Try  living this attitude for 3 days and tell me if you're happier or not.





Sound like somewhat sociopathic rationalizing. You'd make a fine Republican/Libertarian.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #19220114 - 12/02/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Compassion isn't merely feeling pity for another persons bad circumstances--it stems from the empathy that arrives along with the root understanding that all of existence is connected--compassion is the active desire to relieve the suffering of all beings, everywhere, because you realize they are all part of the same Self.

The Buddha's personal attendant, Ananda, asked him: "Would it be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is a part of our practice?" The Buddha replied, "No. It would not be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is part of our practice. It would be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is all of our practice."


Final note: the ability to practice self-compassion is directly linked to the ability to practice compassion for others--you can't build an understanding of your own suffering without gaining some for the suffering of others as well. If, y'know, you want a selfish reason to cultivate compassion.



If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #19220117 - 12/02/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them. No matter what it is it is deserved and so you should not have compassion for people getting their just dessert. Try  living this attitude for 3 days and tell me if you're happier or not.





Sound like somewhat sociopathic rationalizing. You'd make a fine Republican/Libertarian.



I'm not trying to fuck people over, merely to live a joyous life.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19220131 - 12/02/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

When I have compassion I dont really feel bad, it actually makes me feel more human and alive, and if you take action based on that compassion (helping someone) you feel better about yourself and life.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19220191 - 12/02/13 11:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.



Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?

Regardless, compassion doesn't involve one actively forcing others to model their existence after that which you judge to be right--there are many ways to express compassion, to work towards the elimination of all suffering, that don't involve force--especially when one considers that force is often a cause of suffering, forceful compassion could even be said to be an oxymoron.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19220211 - 12/03/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.



Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?




yes!!!

But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19220251 - 12/03/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19220315 - 12/03/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.



If you think you live in a bubble it becomes a bubble. What is the universe but a large bubble?

There's not any reason I see to change my experience to feel bad for other people. And it is only ego and judgmentalism that would cause a judgment, that another's experience is not what is best for them or make them happy in the long run. And so I will do what gives me greatest joy. I will be the change I want to see in the world, a being of joy and care free happiness.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass] * 1
    #19220374 - 12/03/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not help people to change the world or make it a better place, I am not delusional you see. I do it for no other reason then that it makes me feel good, so in a way it could be considered selfish.




I do it because frankly, I consider a life of selfishness to be devoid of meaning. You are not living a useful or purposeful life if the only person you seek to satiate is yourself. People who exist and live solely for themselves are a waste of human flesh, and have no concept of philanthropy or helping others. So instead, they extravagantly spend their money on dump crap and go about their way completely mindless of anything besides their own narcissism. And if they aren't oblivious to people who are suffering far below them, they are probably taking advantage of them.

People who live for themselves have no value beyond themselves. Nobody would even miss them if they died. On the other hand, people who live for others hold the true value in life, and they will be remembered by many upon their passing.


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OfflineAmazonianGuru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19220382 - 12/03/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have compassion for people who have poops that burn their bum.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: AmazonianGuru] * 2
    #19220385 - 12/03/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Selfishness is by far the best way to live life, it's done me nothing but good.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19220393 - 12/03/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
I do not help people to change the world or make it a better place, I am not delusional you see. I do it for no other reason then that it makes me feel good, so in a way it could be considered selfish.




I do it because frankly, I consider a life of selfishness to be devoid of meaning. You are not living a useful or purposeful life if the only person you seek to satiate is yourself. People who exist and live solely for themselves are a waste of human flesh, and have no concept of philanthropy or helping others. So instead, they extravagantly spend their money on dump crap and go about their way completely mindless of anything besides their own narcissism. And if they aren't oblivious to people who are suffering far below them, they are probably taking advantage of them.

People who live for themselves have no value beyond themselves. Nobody would even miss them if they died. On the other hand, people who live for others hold the true value in life, and they will be remembered by many upon their passing.



I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.

You have preconceptions about what a fulfilled life is and is not and your belief includes a judgment because it includes resistance to the opposite opinion, which is your ego defense mechanism. I hold no beliefs or judgments about what will give your life meaning to you and have no opinion on it except that it is completely wrong for me.

I prefer not to be caught up in other peoples problems and drama. To you, I guess you get a meaningful life. I don't judge that. In fact I completely support you continuing to do that if you get the most fulfillment and happiness from having a dramatic life. I choose to impartially observe you doing that and it gives me joy to observe without interfering and without passing judgment.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19221369 - 12/03/13 10:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.



If you think you live in a bubble it becomes a bubble. What is the universe but a large bubble?

There's not any reason I see to change my experience to feel bad for other people. And it is only ego and judgmentalism that would cause a judgment, that another's experience is not what is best for them or make them happy in the long run. And so I will do what gives me greatest joy. I will be the change I want to see in the world, a being of joy and care free happiness.



Thinking you live in a bubble doesn't make it so--your choices still effect others whether you are consciously aware of it or not--are you a solipsist? Because I'm not sure how you can otherwise believe that merely thinking you live in a bubble is enough--the universe may be understandable as a huge bubble, but this doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that you are the only sentient being within this bubble.



Anyways, I'm not here debate your world view, so much as I am here to defend the concept of compassion--which you appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of.

Your first misunderstanding, which others have already attempted to clarify, is that compassion is a negative emotion, a bad feeling. Though it is true that compassion requires having a deep awareness of the suffering of others and the ability to empathize, this is not the same as "feeling bad for other people"--compassion is a form of love, and it feels good to love others. In fact, within Buddhist philosophy, it's generally understood that compassion is a selfish emotion, meaning that it grants a benefit to the self and as such is desired by the ego, until one has reached the status of a selfless enlightened being.

Your second misunderstanding, one which I have attempted to clarify already, is that compassion is forcing others to live their life according to your own value judgments. I'll simply reiterate that this is not so, forceful compassion is an oxymoron.

Thirdly, you seem to be trying to associate 'ego' and 'judgmentalism' with 'compassion' as if this association would void the concept of compassion. Another word for 'judgmentalism' would be 'opinion'--and all selfish beings (meaning those that identify with a personal self, an ego) will have an opinion--it is part of our nature to create value judgements--and this is why, as I mentioned above, Buddhism has two concepts of compassion, that which arises from a selfish being, and that which arises from a selfless being--selfish compassion isn't seen as worthless, but the acknowledgement is still made that it will have a personal bias contained within it. Ego and judgmentalism are aspects of being a selfish being, and will still exist whether we decide to practice compassion or not--I hope you don't think your decision to leave others to live their own lives means that you avoid making value judgments--we all have them, and as such, it seems irrelevant to apply your criticism of them only to compassionate acts.

Compassion is the ability to understand the emotional state of another person or oneself, combined with having a desire to alleviate or reduce the suffering of another. It is not commiseration or pity, though it is often confused as such.



And once more, if you want a personal reason to cultivate compassion, understand that self-compassion is directly related to compassion towards others. You cannot understand your own suffering, without attaining an understanding of the suffering of others--and you cannot practice self-compassion without having an understanding of your own suffering.


--------------------


Edited by shivas.wisdom (12/03/13 10:10 AM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19221660 - 12/03/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If that is what works for you then by all means continue. In the enlightenment trilogy the author takes a harsh trail to get there. Some people take easier trails to get the same goal. If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion. By recognizing that and reacting accordingly it seems to me that compassion would become a quaint idea. From war to pollution, its not real if the world is illusory, so why expend your energy on an illusory problem? I don't see any reason to. In fact it seems to me that the only reason to have compassion is hanging on tot he idea that at least your body or other peoples bodies are real. I don't think they are. I'm not any more real than any other illusion. Only consciousness of which I'm part of the grid of is real, so why concern myself with compassion for a holographic dream that only seems real to the dreaming?

The above is presuming traditional Buddhist concepts on your part. If not correct my attempt at explaining from your point of view may be off and I'll try again after I get a better handle on it. Of course, like Liquid Glass pointed out, my sharing my opinion is a form of compassion, trying perhaps to aid fellow travelers. But it is done because it makes me pleased to share this idea, not out of some concept of changing others which I can't do even if I want to, because we're all illusory people who's perhaps only real aspect is a consciousness.

:strokebeard:


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221715 - 12/03/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I would say that compassion is the most important ability a person can have. Some guru dude I listened to once said that empathy is ego-reinforcing because it creates a separation between you and other people or something like that. I don't know about that, but it's certainly better than an ego-reinforcing lifestyle of no compassion.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221837 - 12/03/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

highc said:
Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.



Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.






There's a huge loss of logic in what you just said. "we'd ALL be happier". Obviously, that's not going to apply to the one suffering. Acknowledging suffering does not decrease my quality of life. It's when other people don't acknowledge that suffering that causes a decrease in my happiness. Ie, when people don't have compassion and do the things that simply make them "happy" while blatantly causing suffering to others.

So no, i think we need more compassion. The synonyms you picked were out of context imo. Compassion isn't US feeling bad for others. It's us being able to relate our bad experiences to what others are feeling and offer them the comfort and support that we wish we had when we went through those experiences ourselves. When you say you feel bad for someone, it doesn't mean that you need to sit there and live out their suffering for them. It means that you recognize their suffering as a feeling you can identify with


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: KremrBigSikter]
    #19221921 - 12/03/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think part of the problem is that compassion has become a perceived necessity of being a good or moral person the way logic is needed to be rational. But this is a judgment formed that may be in error. For me it is not correct. I am on a path to becoming a butterfly and there are many metaphorical cocoons people can live in to emerge as a butterfly. Me, I realize its not real and dive right smack into the middle of it and tell the truth about it. There is no need for compassion because the world is perfect. Some discomfort even what is perceived as pain and suffering is perfect and illusion anyway so there is no reason to have compassion about it.

Unlike the guru you mentioned I do not see compassion as needed for losing the ego. In fact, associating with empathy leads to the idea that suffering is in fact real as are the things seeming to experience it. I can make this very simple, none of that is anything but my perception and there is no reason to have compassion for whatever my limited perceptions are.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221940 - 12/03/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Compassion is the hurt we feel in honour of the joy we know the others around us should share. You've got it half right bud, but not everything comes along with a negative connotation.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221966 - 12/03/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I don't wake up and decide if I am going to be compassionate that day.  Some days I probably have more than others, but I don't think it has that much to do with my general happiness.

If any of us could fuck with human conscious in the sense that we could snip out parts that we didn't like we'd probably fuck it all up.  Shits complicated.

I feel bad for others alot, but I hate when other people feel bad for me.  I always think that if some other people have it so much worse than me how can I feel like I have it so bad sometimes.  How does that work out and does it actually end up being fair?  Like all this feeling of what you deserve in life is relative to your given fate so there is no reason to feel bad.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221988 - 12/03/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Life is all about helping those who need help, and hurting those who need hurt.

There is no other joy than that.


--------------------
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19221998 - 12/03/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.



Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?




yes!!!

But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.




if you just purely observe then compassion will arise naturally from that because you will see how people are just confused and really they have no huge cause for concern


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: moonrockmushy] * 1
    #19222022 - 12/03/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

When I hear compassion I do not think of my own pain. I think of beautiful moments. For instance, once I was on the lake fishing. It became choppy quite quick and the skies darkened. Rain poured down as waves washed over our small 12' piece of aluminum. The distant islands and rocky shores were but haze. Fear gripped us but onward we pressed to mouth of the bay where safety waited. Suddenly the darkened skies parted and the rains slowly satisfied, the haze lifted as I watched a perfect ray of light run between the illuminated clouds. A loons call perfected the moment, sweeping the valley with its song. It made for such a perfect moment, one I will never forget. Compassion, is my heart in a perfect moment. Only when it's muddied by my own weakness am I ashamed. That's life my friend, and nothing will stop me from being all I am, except myself.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222029 - 12/03/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!




I agree.

1. Become a sociopath.
2. Enjoy your newfound freedom from negative emotions such as guilt, fear, remorse, and empathy.
3. ????
4. Profit!

So, now that we've discovered the key to happiness and enlightenment, how do we go about actually doing it?  I suspect habitual desensitization to violence would help, but how do I rid myself of those pesky morals that society has ingrained into my brain?


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #19222071 - 12/03/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wizard Dee... we want you to know this:

"There is nothing that exists that has only one side. Even a piece of paper, thin as it is, has two sides."
-Darken Rahl


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19222082 - 12/03/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

g00ru said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existences. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.



Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?




yes!!!

But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.




if you just purely observe then compassion will arise naturally from that because you will see how people are just confused and really they have no huge cause for concern



I find it is reclaiming the power we assign to "out there" or "outside our self" in the perceptions we have. In many cases we have given a lot of power away to certain people, places, or activities, that resulted in our feeling less than joyful.

Call it what it is and tell the truth about it. Assess the situation and look for your judgments beliefs and opinions. For example is there someone or something or someone in this experience that you think is wrong or bad or should change or be different than what it is? And is it true? And is there a judgment or belief or opinion that is causing you to think that or that is causing you the discomfort in the experience? And what is it? And is it really true? There are a lot of distractions that keep you from focusing on what keeps you from joy and there are pattern that revolve around key opinions and judgments or beliefs you hold. Call it what it is. Your discomfort is based on your reaction or response.

Nothing out there is going to change to make you happier. You're the one that needs to take 100% responsibility and needs to change beliefs or opinions because no one is a victim or anyone because none of it is real anyway. Its only as real as the power you assign to it. Once you reclaim that power based on your assignments based on your judgments, beliefs, and opinions such things as compassion become quaint ideas.

I hope that seems clear, I may not be explaining it as well as I'm thinking it.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222162 - 12/03/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I think you explained it quite well...

I might be qouting some of that..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222334 - 12/03/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Problem not of your making = compassion.

Problem of your making = no compassion.

Disclaimer for the mentally deficient  - these are generalities and specific circumstances can (and sometimes do) vary.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19222362 - 12/03/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol nvm.


Edited by Chowder963 (12/03/13 02:09 PM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222429 - 12/03/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!



you obviously can not differentiate certain things.  not to mention your opinion of most things seems cynical as fuck.  which is bullshit because I am way more cynical than all of your happy asses and I'm calling your bullshit.  what is happening in the world?  :huxleyfacepalm:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222446 - 12/03/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion.



I'm not Buddhist, but I do find the philosophy to have a very well developed concept of compassion, as it is central to the teachings.

That being said, conventional Buddhism doesn't include the belief that all reality is an illusion, is unreal--this is a common misconception, one that leads many to draw pessimistic or nihilistic conclusions where none were implied--it is not that reality is an illusion--rather it is our fundamental misunderstanding of reality, our delusion produced by ignorance, which creates the illusion--the illusion is not inherent to reality, but to the ignorant mind. Nonetheless, existence is still real--and the suffering of sentient beings is real as well.

In the Buddhist sense, ignorance is equivalent to the identification of a self as being separate from everything else--it consists of the belief that there is an "I" that is not part of anything else--on this basis we think, "I am one and unique. Everything else is not me. It is something different."--from this identification stems the dualistic view, since once there is an "I," there are also "others"--up to here is "me"--the rest is "they"--as soon as this split is made, it creates two opposite ways of reaction: "This is nice, I want it!" and "This is not nice, I do not want it!".

This misconception is the part of reality that is unreal, and is the cause of all suffering.

So if your desire is to live a happy and joyful life, you must understand this truth for how it applies to yourself--because all living beings will suffer--birth, sickness, old age, death--these are four unavoidable forms of suffering--separation from that which we love, contact with that which we hate, unfulfilled desires--these are mental forms of suffering that arise from attachment and aversion--even happiness is impermanent and subject to change, and so has a quality of suffering contained within it--but to realize that our dualistic world view is illusory--that there is no separation between the "I" and the "other", brings an end to desire--which brings about an end of suffering.

The best way to lead a happy life is to understand the nature of suffering, and remove the causes--but this realization also comes with the understanding that there is no real distinction between you and everything else--the I/other dichotomy is no more--and so, at the point where you are fully able to express self-compassion--when you have a deep understanding of the nature of your suffering--is also the point when you understand existence to all be one--and so there is no difference between practicing self-compassion and compassion towards others.


--------------------


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19222499 - 12/03/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.




So then, do you think that people such as Nietzsche or Schopenhauer lived meaningless existences simply because they suffered from depression? Arguably the people who have contributed the most to philosophy and art were depressed people.

I also don't understand why you believe compassionate people cannot be happy. They are not antagonistic feelings.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19222538 - 12/03/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lack of compassion is completely wrong and killing society. People live within their own bubbles of joy without caring about problems of their own or others. The problems don't just go away if you toss them on the side, they accumulate.

I've worked as a delivery boy and one day I was sad. This wowen said: BOY you're not happy!

As if life is all sunshine and roses. Wtf.

Being only happy is as bad as being depressed. You either only focus on the good which makes you extremely shallow or you focus on the bad which makes you insane in some ways. Life is a mixture of sadness and joy...

Ride the lows and enjoy the highs.

Not ignore the lows and focus on the highs.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: DrugsRGood]
    #19222549 - 12/03/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There's nothing wrong with compassion, it's one of the things that makes us human.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19223318 - 12/03/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion.



I'm not Buddhist, but I do find the philosophy to have a very well developed concept of compassion, as it is central to the teachings.

That being said, conventional Buddhism doesn't include the belief that all reality is an illusion, is unreal--this is a common misconception, one that leads many to draw pessimistic or nihilistic conclusions where none were implied--it is not that reality is an illusion--rather it is our fundamental misunderstanding of reality, our delusion produced by ignorance, which creates the illusion--the illusion is not inherent to reality, but to the ignorant mind. Nonetheless, existence is still real--and the suffering of sentient beings is real as well.

In the Buddhist sense, ignorance is equivalent to the identification of a self as being separate from everything else--it consists of the belief that there is an "I" that is not part of anything else--on this basis we think, "I am one and unique. Everything else is not me. It is something different."--from this identification stems the dualistic view, since once there is an "I," there are also "others"--up to here is "me"--the rest is "they"--as soon as this split is made, it creates two opposite ways of reaction: "This is nice, I want it!" and "This is not nice, I do not want it!".

This misconception is the part of reality that is unreal, and is the cause of all suffering.

So if your desire is to live a happy and joyful life, you must understand this truth for how it applies to yourself--because all living beings will suffer--birth, sickness, old age, death--these are four unavoidable forms of suffering--separation from that which we love, contact with that which we hate, unfulfilled desires--these are mental forms of suffering that arise from attachment and aversion--even happiness is impermanent and subject to change, and so has a quality of suffering contained within it--but to realize that our dualistic world view is illusory--that there is no separation between the "I" and the "other", brings an end to desire--which brings about an end of suffering.

The best way to lead a happy life is to understand the nature of suffering, and remove the causes--but this realization also comes with the understanding that there is no real distinction between you and everything else--the I/other dichotomy is no more--and so, at the point where you are fully able to express self-compassion--when you have a deep understanding of the nature of your suffering--is also the point when you understand existence to all be one--and so there is no difference between practicing self-compassion and compassion towards others.



That's a lot of theology and preconception. And it all presupposes that life is suffering. It supposes that birth, separation from loved ones, death, and such are suffering. That's all based on a certain perception of experience but that doesn't even matter because it's illusory anyway as are all our perceptions because they exist only as electrical impulses in our perception decoder (brain). There's no light in your brain. Everything you think you see is merely the interpretation of electrical impulses in your visual cortex. Nothing you "see" is far away, its all literally inside of you. Then we might talk about "the ghost in the machine" or what perception and consciousness is but the fact is that everything we think we perceive is merely electrical impulses in our brain. If you'd like to delve into a debate on the finer points of Buddhism I'd be glad to in perhaps another thread or by PM, but I'll just leave it here that life is experience. And there is nothing about th experience that must be classified as suffering and that to me life is not suffering at all and so the premises of Buddhism is wrong, except for the world and body being illusory perceptions.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
    #19223348 - 12/03/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.




So then, do you think that people such as Nietzsche or Schopenhauer lived meaningless existences simply because they suffered from depression? Arguably the people who have contributed the most to philosophy and art were depressed people.

I also don't understand why you believe compassionate people cannot be happy. They are not antagonistic feelings.



I don't know.

If you got on a roller coaster at an amusement park and ride the ride is it meaningless if you don't like it and were scared and tried to change it while you were on it? Is it meaningless if you just enjoyed it for the experience it was. Its a ride. The experience and perception is what you make of it. Any meaningfulness is up to you.

:shrug:


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19223355 - 12/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: deCypher]
    #19223432 - 12/03/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?





The use of compassion for me is that it makes me fell good. It is that simple.

All of the other feelings you are asking about are not really relevant to this conversation. Those are just emotions that come with being a human being and you can use them to your advantage or you can let one or all of them consume you


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19223533 - 12/03/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The use of compassion is a sense of fulfillment.

Happiness is easily obtained if you are a taker. To give something back, however, is worth so much more. It has substance.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #19223657 - 12/03/13 07:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Let me ask all you defenders of compassion... what use is compassion?

Let me ask the same group... what use are the negative feelings of guilt, remorse, fear, and empathy?





The use of compassion for me is that it makes me fell good. It is that simple.




So does heroin.

....

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
All of the other feelings you are asking about are not really relevant to this conversation. Those are just emotions that come with being a human being and you can use them to your advantage or you can let one or all of them consume you




And why aren't they relevant, exactly?

Why wouldn't eliminating all the negative emotions I listed overall improve the human experience?  :wellhellothere:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19223892 - 12/03/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
That's a lot of theology and preconception. And it all presupposes that life is suffering. It supposes that birth, separation from loved ones, death, and such are suffering.



Except that there was no theology contained at all--what I wrote was obtained through direct observation, and dealt not at all with concepts of a deity.

Same with the supposed presuppositions, they were arrived at by observation. Are you going to claim that separation from loved ones, illness, old age, death, do not cause any form of suffering for you? The conclusion that all beings will suffer at some point in their life seems to me to be a reasonable one.

Perhaps you could go into detail on how you feel the claim that suffering to be part of life is a presupposition, as I feel that I went into a decent amount of detail for what causes suffering, and ways that suffering manifests itself into our lives--just because it is an article of Buddhism, does not mean denouncing it as theology provides an automatic debunk. I feel that the logic I follow is sound, and any apparent presuppositions are verifiable subjectively, through direct observation, and as such it deserves a better response than the following red herring.


Quote:

That's all based on a certain perception of experience but that doesn't even matter because it's illusory anyway as are all our perceptions because they exist only as electrical impulses in our perception decoder (brain). There's no light in your brain. Everything you think you see is merely the interpretation of electrical impulses in your visual cortex. Nothing you "see" is far away, its all literally inside of you. Then we might talk about "the ghost in the machine" or what perception and consciousness is but the fact is that everything we think we perceive is merely electrical impulses in our brain.



This seems to be besides the point--whether our observation of reality corresponds to an external environment, or it is merely internal electrical/chemical signals, our observation of reality remains unchanged--it is still this reality--and therefore every bit as real in either case--a dream is only known as a dream when one wakes up--I'll ask again, are you a solipsist? Because it seems like you are, and would make sense for how you cannot comprehend the function of compassion.


Quote:

And there is nothing about th experience that must be classified as suffering and that to me life is not suffering at all and so the premises of Buddhism is wrong, except for the world and body being illusory perceptions.



Once again, let me ask you to clarify--you are saying that there is no suffering in life, at all? I mean, if you actually believe this to be true, than yes, once again I can understand your difficulty in comprehending compassion, because I don't think compassion could exist in a world free of suffering--but, I think your claim that the world is empty of suffering to be a little ridiculous, and wonder if you could expand on just exactly how this is so.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19223913 - 12/03/13 07:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well controlled sociopathic narcissism = GOD


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Chowder963]
    #19224004 - 12/03/13 08:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

no that is called 'megolomania' and it produces a lot of problems for other people.

your avatar is closer to God then that post lol


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19224210 - 12/03/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Quote:

highc said:
Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.



Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.

All it takes is to adapt your philosophy a little to be that bad things happen to people because they deserve them. No matter what it is it is deserved and so you should not have compassion for people getting their just dessert. Try  living this attitude for 3 days and tell me if you're happier or not.




So you're suggesting we be in it for and only for yourself? At the end of the day, without compassion for yourself, you will hate yourself, and not sharing even a shred of that fundamental compassion is a selfishness that will inevitably wreck your "joyous existance". Other people are inevitably a part of our existence, in a huge variety of mutually biological, chemical, and psychological ways, and helping those people when we can just comes naturally when people are content ourselves, in my experience.

You seem like you're trolling, either that or you're just a bit oblivious. Try telling someone who just opened up to you and told you they were raped or abused that they deserved it and see how both of you feel afterwards. Do it to certain people and you may wake up on the floor with injuries a couple of minutes later. Compassion is not something that has to be draining.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19224226 - 12/03/13 08:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I'm glad you've been able to verify  all those Buddhist things first hand. If that works for you then by all means full speed ahead. What I find discomforting may very well include those things you mention but it is only my reaction to them and how I choose to respond that can bring suffering. There is nothing inherently good or bad about them or about anything else. Preconceptions, opinions, and beliefs about them are what lead to a reaction that can be described as suffering.

Quote:


This seems to be besides the point--whether our observation of reality corresponds to an external environment, or it is merely internal electrical/chemical signals, our observation of reality remains unchanged--it is still this reality--and therefore every bit as real in either case--a dream is only known as a dream when one wakes up--I'll ask again, are you a solipsist? Because it seems like you are, and would make sense for how you cannot comprehend the function of compassion.



Compassion is a function of judgmentalism. Lets say there is a girl who is 14 and becomes an unwed mother. People may say, oh that poor unfortunate girl. Well it is not unfortunate, it simply is. It is the beliefs, opinions, and judgments of other people that cause compassion for a person that is simply having their own experience. Their experience is different than yours but its not better or worse. The same with death as well. And that is a function of fear, perhaps the most primal fear that drives almost all people, the fear of no self. And that is just a part of the experience neither good nor bad and I neither value life nor fear death. But the opinions, beliefs, and judgments of people lead them to hold certain ideas that cause them discomfort or suffering or may lead them to have compassion for others due to their own opinions, beliefs, and judgments on things they assign power to to have power over their self.

I had to look up solipsism to answer your question. No I'm not one. I view myself as an infinate being having a human experience, like a handicap level in a game. I'm not real but my experience is perceived as real so I should enjoy the game.

Bill Hicks is the philosopher (stand up comic) I identify with most I guess. The ride is a concept I've taken and ran with. We control our reactions in the game or our reaction to the ride and we can suffer or just enjoy it but we didn't build it or direct it but we're on it and its great while it lasts. If we know its a game or a ride then you stop and compassion becomes silly. Changing our judgments, beliefs, and opinions is all it takes to go from fearful and suffering to happy but no matter what you do on the ride you are on it so you might as well get the best attitude. People are too invested in the illusion, what you might call attachments, and that will make you suffer when you lose your precious delusions. But that's a personal choice. Anyway, watch this short bit I personally identify with and it'll clear up any questions about me and solipsism.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19224404 - 12/03/13 09:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If a friend or family member was literally dieing of starvation, would you give him food if you had more than enough? Is that not compassion? While emotions often involve cognition, and while some supposed displays of compassion are simply pity, sometimes there's no thought or belief involved in the reaction in response to the pain of another, as pain avoidance is a pretty base human instinct, and not helping mitigate pain for those around you often leads to being pained yourself through a variety of mechanisms. Sometimes beliefs, opinions, and judgments occlude and distort compassion into something more resembling pity or outright insult, but that doesn't mean it's a product of those factors. Also, sometimes people take compassion to a self-sacrificing extreme, which is counterproductive. It's pretty difficult to effectively benefit the lives of others when your own well being is shit. Having a balance between concern for the individual and concern for our various collective groups seems to work well, in my experience as well as many others. Test out unfettered self-reliance though, if it speaks to your intuitions, maybe I'm completely off base, or maybe it works for some, but something close to a mix seems optimal for creatures as social as hairless space apes with supercharged brains.


Edited by Xingu (12/03/13 09:18 PM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Xingu] * 1
    #19224407 - 12/03/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The cock crows in the early morning;
Sadly I see as I rise how worn out I am;
I haven't a belt or a shirt.
Just the semblance of a robe.
My loincloth has no seat, my pants no opening--
On my head are three or five pecks of gray ashes.
Originally I intended to practice to help save others;
Who would have suspected that instead I would become a fool!

Joshu - 8th century

(oops wrong thread, still kinda applies though so I will leave it.)


Edited by moonrockmushy (12/03/13 09:20 PM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #19224593 - 12/03/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------

"Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station

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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Xingu]
    #19224872 - 12/03/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I would help, but not because I have any desire or obligation to help anyone. Helping someone else is one of the biggest traps people get caught in. You can think of me as a cowboy, who rides the trail and does cowboy like activities like herding steers and mending fences because that's what he does, not out of any obligation or cowboy code, but because he like being a cowboy.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (12/03/13 11:18 PM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19228007 - 12/04/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Compassion is a function of judgmentalism. Lets say there is a girl who is 14 and becomes an unwed mother. People may say, oh that poor unfortunate girl. Well it is not unfortunate, it simply is. It is the beliefs, opinions, and judgments of other people that cause compassion for a person that is simply having their own experience. Their experience is different than yours but its not better or worse. The same with death as well. And that is a function of fear, perhaps the most primal fear that drives almost all people, the fear of no self. And that is just a part of the experience neither good nor bad and I neither value life nor fear death. But the opinions, beliefs, and judgments of people lead them to hold certain ideas that cause them discomfort or suffering or may lead them to have compassion for others due to their own opinions, beliefs, and judgments on things they assign power to to have power over their self.



I'm actually surprised at how close this is to describing how I would see the world--I really think you are just confused on what compassion actually describes--"Lets say there is a girl who is 14 and becomes an unwed mother. People may say, oh that poor unfortunate girl. Well it is not unfortunate, it simply is."--this is not describing a case of compassion, but that of pity--a compassionate response would be to relate to the girl in a way that reduces her suffering--and it isn't given out of some greater sense of right or wrong--the status of being an unwed mother is insignificant to the equation--all that matters is the girls own reaction--reasonable or not, the girls suffering is real to her--and it is out of compassion to this that one tries to lessen suffering.

Because beyond your status on compassion, your philosophy is a close reflection of buddhist ideals--the idea that nothing has any innate sense of 'right' or 'wrong' is true--suffering does not arise from the external object, but from the internal mind--and this way of looking at the world--the duality of self/other, good/bad--is a product of the ignorance that i referred to earlier--the person causes their own suffering, but it is still unnecessary suffering.

The highest act of compassion is to bring the dharma to another, in order that they may understand their own ignorance, and see the world as it truly is--and what you are doing now is exactly the same, attempting to explain that suffering is merely a matter of perspective--but does not exist in its own right--what you are doing, my friend, is an act of compassion--an attempt to liberate another being from suffering.


Quote:

Bill Hicks is the philosopher (stand up comic) I identify with most I guess. The ride is a concept I've taken and ran with. We control our reactions in the game or our reaction to the ride and we can suffer or just enjoy it but we didn't build it or direct it but we're on it and its great while it lasts. If we know its a game or a ride then you stop and compassion becomes silly. Changing our judgments, beliefs, and opinions is all it takes to go from fearful and suffering to happy but no matter what you do on the ride you are on it so you might as well get the best attitude. People are too invested in the illusion, what you might call attachments, and that will make you suffer when you lose your precious delusions. But that's a personal choice. Anyway, watch this short bit I personally identify with and it'll clear up any questions about me and solipsism.



This video as well brings buddhist concepts to mind--the people who are afraid of the ride refers to those who suffer out of ignorance--those who realize it's just a ride and nothing to be afraid of refers to those who have developed an understanding of the causes of suffering--their attempt to show those still afraid of the ride that there is nothing to be afraid of is an act of compassion--even in the face of the angry invested murderers--who, by the way, do not represent compassionate folk but just about the exact opposite.

and it would almost seem that his final speech--his speech with the eyes of fear and love--would also be an impassioned speech towards more compassion, to see all of the world as one--and less closing ourselves off--i'm curious how you relate his final words to your concept of compassion being a negative, better to worry only about your own state--because they seem to contradict each other to me.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19228121 - 12/04/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have compassion when I can relate, I don't think its natural to care about people who are that different from you unless they're pathetic, or in some cases nice but with bad luck. Isn't here's so many variables to whether or not I'll feel compassion or not. I think if someone's donating to charities or going out of their way to care then they are trying to prove something to others or to get into a better after life, its not genuine, most people at least, I'm sure there are genuinely nice people out there though, everyone's basically the same though... Just use how you think (only works for some) and put yourself in there shoes based on what you know about them the best you can, boom you now know that person thinks.  This only works for some people.

Someone has to have a certain combination of intelligence/niceness/similarity to me for me, ir of course if theyre a complete disadvantage like mental handicap or some other mental/physical impairment. Anyone who cares more than that is strange.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19232950 - 12/05/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Yes I would help, but not because I have any desire or obligation to help anyone. Helping someone else is one of the biggest traps people get caught in. You can think of me as a cowboy, who rides the trail and does cowboy like activities like herding steers and mending fences because that's what he does, not out of any obligation or cowboy code, but because he like being a cowboy.




Well put and agreed. It's easy to abuse compassion as a kind of high or in a self-important manner. When it arises as a perfectly natural reaction, though, it seems silly not to let it be expressed or at least fully felt. Unfettered ego can certainly twist compassion into a nasty megalomania of sorts.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Xingu]
    #19234787 - 12/06/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Compassion is just the reaction to energy, feeling or whatchymacallit that is being sent towards you..

as everything else, one aware may chose what to except or not..


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world (moved) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19449157 - 01/20/14 06:43 PM (10 years, 10 days ago)

This thread was moved from The Pub.

Reason:
moved by request and for further discussion


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19450238 - 01/20/14 10:22 PM (10 years, 10 days ago)

You're argument suggests we don't practice compassion for other beings simply because of the definition of the words?


Conventional things like language do not capture the ultimate essence of being.
Part of that essence is the feeling we get when emotionally stirred by others.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19450262 - 01/20/14 10:25 PM (10 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!




compassion is the only thing that separates the good souls from the bad. Especially in radical situations.

Without it, your now my enemy:awedrugs:


--------------------

:mushroom2:**need a check up?**:aliendance: **im a Doctor**:mushroom2:
:bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2::bow2:
i sometimes wish I was a wormy, wiggling all in the cold dirt...tickle tackle pickle dickle think a mackshift thought of broken words broken gears and words of conundrums..I'm not a weiner doctor so take that shit to dr. Gonz free boob inplant consultations.. Photo required


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Dr.Dankhead]
    #19450415 - 01/20/14 10:51 PM (10 years, 10 days ago)

:eyebrow:

How do you know how to separate souls?
Why do you separate them?
Where do the good ones go?
..And, the bad ones? :smirk:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: nicechrisman]
    #19450782 - 01/21/14 12:13 AM (10 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

nicechrisman said:
But having compassion for other people makes me feel happy. I don't view it as the same thing as pity. When I can lift others, it lifts me as well. Compassion can ultimately end up feeling a little selfish.




Really depends on how you define selfish, which to me is being stingy.  Having a devotion to working on your own consciousness is not at all what I'd call selfish.  But you're entirely right in the sense that helping other people get free without adding more mental drama to yourself is a huge test in working on your own consciousness... If you're just free in your own little cave, you're only free in that relative reality, the rest of the world still has a big lock on it.  If you can be free in somebody else's :shitstorm: then that helps them work through it, that's compassion in my book, and is mutually beneficial. Be free.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineabsols
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19451707 - 01/21/14 07:29 AM (10 years, 10 days ago)

compassion is through being one or someone .. which is evil trait will of powers over all else and truth superiority which is in principle impossible so what justify evil to itself will existence as always eternally ..

compassion is through believing that you matter to others unfortunate at least ... so the belief that you are superior .. which is the sin objectively .. you are yourself which is a lot different totally while superiority is to infinite truth value existence through true realities of rights to be free

as a mortal you cant be a source of anything when any is through everything a particular more present value ..

now believing god is a lie ... when you are everyday being through and will all else matters to your physical being .. you cannot believe speculations of some senses in your life .. it is your sense of compassion there totally objectively felt in acting or relating through certain standards to others beings ..
it is not like a matter of things that you cant know as bigbang theory or existence creations means and reasons ..
it is about the relation to others which is way more clear from you surrounded constantly by so many others

to me, what matter is the relation with else superiority through objective right values so what everything and everyone sense share and need to be always real

so I guess it is also the ways of truth freedom.. to mean the always right or true existence through else freedom values to recognize and support right too

meaning something to do is meaning existence as a finite thing so a thing that cannot be existing really

objective must be always superior it is the only way of existing right

so you can be always a plus right so like still as you are free without having to do constant things to think being well and be then abused and enslaved .. which would be a way to support evil growth of true facts existence

that is how me for instance, would never mean to give to others .. I would give them but without meaning it and I give a lot without ever remembering it nor meaning it .. when it is you, then you know how to do whatever you want without stopping to point it.. you know so being conscious free that act fast like nothing to ever mention..

which also prove how compassion is selfish.. it is like meaning to live through best conscious ways in dealing with others beings of inferior realms

of course when you are an animal, speaking to others nicely is like being superior ... but are you an animal ??? according to the condition yes we are animals possessed by forces.. but according to yourself being conscious ???

still the objective fact of compassion concept is to slavery of senses so nothing to talk about as being value or right existing individual fact

anyway, if compassion was a true value, how god is the opposite since it is the force ..through forcing inferiority to be others conscious, that is very uncompassionate thing to do.. and how all gods don't even talk to each others and keep existing constantly free alone ?? 


Edited by absols (01/21/14 08:04 AM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: cez] * 1
    #19452372 - 01/21/14 11:28 AM (10 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

cez said:
:eyebrow:

1-How do you know how to separate souls?
2-Why do you separate them?
3-Where do the good ones go?
3.5-..And, the bad ones? :smirk:





1-you break people open like a coconut, put the good ones in a white bucket, bad in the red.

2- well... I get lonely, and bored..

3-white bucket.

3.5- red bucket..

Any more questions?


--------------------

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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Dr.Dankhead]
    #19452517 - 01/21/14 11:57 AM (10 years, 10 days ago)

:lol::thumbup:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: cez]
    #19452612 - 01/21/14 12:18 PM (10 years, 10 days ago)

Reading through this thread, seems to me that the dilemma is solved. The definition of compassion had been misconstrued, simply put.


--------------------




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OfflineDrugsRGood
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: DirtyTomFlint] * 1
    #19452664 - 01/21/14 12:28 PM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Compassion is great because you can never be overloaded with love.

:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19454635 - 01/21/14 07:52 PM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!




Maybe your first assumption is baseless. Really I don't see any sign of that being true.

I agree that having compassion sucks tho. Id rather not have it. Feeling compassion for another who is suffering means there is suffering. :thumbdown:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19455400 - 01/21/14 11:15 PM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Feeling compassion for another who is suffering means there is suffering. :thumbdown:




im not too sure that this is true.

at least it hasn't been true in my experience.

if perhaps you become too attached to the outcome of the situation you could experience suffering.

but i think it's very possible to experience compassion without experiencing suffering


--------------------
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19455457 - 01/21/14 11:30 PM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!



do as thou wilt
please flesh and bones

satanism

if you believe in that you might be a satanist

not having any feelings for others sounds a bit satanic maybe
but there is a difference between no emotions and not acting on emotions

my painbody is not me, I try to see the positive side of things and help when possible
it will still hurt seeing other suffer sometimes, but not as much as if I let my painbody run my life


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: k00laid]
    #19456836 - 01/22/14 10:10 AM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Feeling compassion for another who is suffering means there is suffering. :thumbdown:




im not too sure that this is true.

at least it hasn't been true in my experience.

if perhaps you become too attached to the outcome of the situation you could experience suffering.

but i think it's very possible to experience compassion without experiencing suffering




If not suffering then what spurs compassion? I'm not saying you have to suffer to be compassionate. I'm saying suffering is the target of compassion. So for compassion to be, suffering has to be. That's pretty crummy IMO and I could do without compassion because of what it means in terms of suffering.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19457181 - 01/22/14 11:36 AM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Hmm but isn't is also called compassion if you can feel the joy of  someone else ? Of course that's more easy and 'natural' coming, but maybe compassion is focused on and overweighted by the suffer part too much in peoples' opinions.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19457197 - 01/22/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 9 days ago)

If you feel compassion when others are happy, sure, call it compassion. I don't feel compassion in those cases. I feel quite different from when someone is suffering.

I do think the heart can be used in each though. Heartfelt compassion; heartfelt appreciation


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19457331 - 01/22/14 12:12 PM (10 years, 9 days ago)

Yes, compassion rings another bell than appreciation.
Compassion is like feeling the other one's happiness (/sadness/whatever feeling), while appreciation is kind of respecting or honoring from a distance, without feeling like the other.
Just how I see/feel it...


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19457367 - 01/22/14 12:24 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

in buddhist terminology, i think what you describe as compassion for others' happiness is referred to as sympathetic joy - which i think is a pretty good term for it :smile: in that system, compassion then is solely used to signify a wish/intent to see others be free from suffering.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #19457376 - 01/22/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Right on. I find it's important to feel :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: deff]
    #19457382 - 01/22/14 12:27 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
in buddhist terminology, i think what you describe as compassion for others' happiness is referred to as sympathetic joy - which i think is a pretty good term for it :smile: in that system, compassion then is solely used to signify a wish/intent to see others be free from suffering.





When I think about my reaction to someone who is genuinely happy I think of the Buddha holding up a single rose. It's breathtaking, awe inspiring, and wondrous for me. :rose:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19457387 - 01/22/14 12:28 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

:smile:


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: deff]
    #19457396 - 01/22/14 12:30 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

I'm glad you still stop by here on occasion my friend :heart:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #19457436 - 01/22/14 12:40 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

i'm here probably more than it seems, just haven't had much to say :smile: :sun:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19457576 - 01/22/14 01:18 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
If not suffering then what spurs compassion? I'm not saying you have to suffer to be compassionate. I'm saying suffering is the target of compassion. So for compassion to be, suffering has to be. That's pretty crummy IMO and I could do without compassion because of what it means in terms of suffering.




It is true, suffering spurs compassion--the active desire to eliminate suffering, brought about by a deep understanding of the nature of suffering coupled with a deep empathy for all sentient beings currently experiencing a form of suffering--and that, without the existence of suffering, I don't think compassion as we understand it could exist.

What I'm confused at, though, is why this association appears 'crummy' to you? Yes, compassion is related to suffering, but in a responsive way--meaning that when one encounters suffering, you act compassionately so as to reduce/eliminate said suffering--not in a causal way--meaning that suffering arises independently of compassion.

Compassion can't exist without suffering (at least not an active expression of it, as I understand thing), but suffering definitely can--and will--exist without compassion.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19457864 - 01/22/14 02:31 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

The path of Buddhism is to follow Dharma. The definition of Dharma is compassionate wisdom.

:levitate:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19458363 - 01/22/14 04:11 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
If not suffering then what spurs compassion? I'm not saying you have to suffer to be compassionate. I'm saying suffering is the target of compassion. So for compassion to be, suffering has to be. That's pretty crummy IMO and I could do without compassion because of what it means in terms of suffering.




It is true, suffering spurs compassion--the active desire to eliminate suffering, brought about by a deep understanding of the nature of suffering coupled with a deep empathy for all sentient beings currently experiencing a form of suffering--and that, without the existence of suffering, I don't think compassion as we understand it could exist.

What I'm confused at, though, is why this association appears 'crummy' to you? Yes, compassion is related to suffering, but in a responsive way--meaning that when one encounters suffering, you act compassionately so as to reduce/eliminate said suffering--not in a causal way--meaning that suffering arises independently of compassion.

Compassion can't exist without suffering (at least not an active expression of it, as I understand thing), but suffering definitely can--and will--exist without compassion.




I think compassion is making the best of a bad situation. But the situation is still bad. And I think that's too bad. Not that it couldn't be worse.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19458548 - 01/22/14 04:34 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

See, to me, inherent to compassion is the active desire to alleviate the bad situation--not merely make the best of it.

Unless you are suggesting that, were we to finally reach a point where suffering is non-existent, compassion would then be obsolete--and therefore, its continued existent is a sad one?


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19458669 - 01/22/14 04:59 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

I'm saying when compassion is there, suffering is there. If alleviated then there is no need for compassion. So whenever compassion is there its a crummy situation IMO. The outcome of genuine compassion is beautiful IME.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19458704 - 01/22/14 05:08 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

ok, i understand you now--makes sense


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Kickle]
    #19458761 - 01/22/14 05:18 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm saying when compassion is there, suffering is there. If alleviated then there is no need for compassion. So whenever compassion is there its a crummy situation IMO. The outcome of genuine compassion is beautiful IME.




it doesn't need to be that much suffering though, in order to feel compassion...if i see someone stub their toe or embarrass themselves i may feel compassionate for them even though really i know it's not such a big deal.


--------------------
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19459338 - 01/22/14 07:18 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

There is absolutely no way to alleviate all suffering from our existence. The human condition is just prone to suffering. It is part of life. Bad things will happen no matter what. And it is natural for the majority of humans to feel compassion for their fellow humans when they are dealing with upsetting situations.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: k00laid]
    #19459347 - 01/22/14 07:20 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Feeling compassion for another who is suffering means there is suffering. :thumbdown:




im not too sure that this is true.

at least it hasn't been true in my experience.

if perhaps you become too attached to the outcome of the situation you could experience suffering.

but i think it's very possible to experience compassion without experiencing suffering



I would agree.

Compassion is not coddling. It is not affection, at least not in the way I imagine it.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] * 1
    #19460456 - 01/22/14 11:56 PM (10 years, 8 days ago)

Pity may be a dictionary synonym for compassion, but I learned the subtle but profound difference from Ram Dass in the intro to BE HERE NOW 40 years ago. When Ram Dass got terrible diarrhea in India, Bhagwan Das said, "Well fast for a few days," to which Ram Dass replied, "Very compassionate, but no pity." I got that and still get that. Compassion is pretty much equivalent to the Greek biblical word for love, namely agapé. Agapé is a disinterested, emotionally uninvolved, but profoundly deep sense of caring. Pity, on the other hand, is a much more visceral 'my heart goes out to you' kind of emotion. It has distance from involvement, but often from aversion to involvement. In Buddhism, 'Compassion in Action' is the upaya, the methodology for attaining wisdom. Pity is not. Compassion embodies insight, which is wisdom, and simultaneously it embodies the detachment necessary to act decisively to alleviate suffering, even if it means cutting off a limb to save a life (figuratively or actually). The psychological term that is critical in compassion is empathy. Empathy is deeper than sympathy inasmuch as in empathy one feels as deeply for the 'other' as one feels for oneself. When you are suffering, you do not hesitate to act to alleviate it. Sympathy entails some resonance with another's suffering, but not to the extent of empathy and there is a wide margin for non-action. A joyous life as a human being is impossible without these qualities. Anything else is shallow and merely hedonistic, not "joyful." Joy is another matter altogether. It differs from happiness (I realized this decades before Eckhart Tolle wrote about it in The Power of Now) in that happiness depends upon external circumstances, while joy is a quality of Being itself.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 3
    #19460526 - 01/23/14 12:14 AM (10 years, 8 days ago)

One of my favorite poet lyricists, Saul Williams, had some verse that go like:

Happiness is a mediocre sin set for a middle class existence

I see through smiles and smell truth in the distance
Beyond one dimensional smiles and laughter
Lies are hereafter where tears echo laughter
You'd have to do math to divide a smile
By a tear times fear equals mere truth
I simply delve in the air and if that's the case
All I have to breath and all else will follow
And that's why drums are hallow

you might enjoy this:



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19463386 - 01/23/14 04:25 PM (10 years, 7 days ago)

You're right. Consider him appreciated. Nice stream of consciousness! :awesomenod: I think I post that on FB. Maybe my virtual homies (besides yourself) will appreciate it also.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/26/14 10:59 PM)


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19467602 - 01/24/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
One of my favorite poet lyricists, Saul Williams, had some verse that go like:

Happiness is a mediocre sin set for a middle class existence

I see through smiles and smell truth in the distance
Beyond one dimensional smiles and laughter
Lies are hereafter where tears echo laughter
You'd have to do math to divide a smile
By a tear times fear equals mere truth
I simply delve in the air and if that's the case
All I have to breath and all else will follow
And that's why drums are hallow

you might enjoy this:







I really like this! Didn't know about Slam poetry before.

Here's another great performance by him which I just found:






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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #19467931 - 01/24/14 02:21 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
One of my favorite poet lyricists, Saul Williams, had some verse that go like:

Happiness is a mediocre sin set for a middle class existence

I see through smiles and smell truth in the distance
Beyond one dimensional smiles and laughter
Lies are hereafter where tears echo laughter
You'd have to do math to divide a smile
By a tear times fear equals mere truth
I simply delve in the air and if that's the case
All I have to breath and all else will follow
And that's why drums are hallow

you might enjoy this:







I really like this! Didn't know about Slam poetry before.

Here's another great performance by him which I just found:










That was actually from an indie film, called Slam, which is a play on words as he plays a young 'slam' poet who got busted with a QP of marijuana and faced with an unbelievably heavy sentence and the 'slam'mer.  It was good, enjoyed it, check it out sometime.  Outside of poetry, he also played a role in the film K-Pax as a hypochondriac in the mental ward, and has made several albums, Amethys Rock Star was probably my favorite. 

As for poetry slams, check out Def Poetry Jam on HBO, endless good stuff, and they actually did some incredible stuff with youth poetry slam, Brave New Voices I believe it was called, the first season had some incredible kids.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19469459 - 01/24/14 08:41 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Here's some DBZ philosophy regarding compassion in the context of when it's ineffective to be compassionate:



That, plus hundreds of other non-typical philosophical views make DBZ hard to top.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ara16w]
    #19469505 - 01/24/14 08:52 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

w00t DBZ rules. yeah android 16 made a powerful point, fighting for the right cause...is not a sin. Although I think he was urging Gohan to right FOR compassion rather than set his compassion aside...compassion is absolutely something you can fight for. Just because you are a warrior doesn't mean you have to be a bloodthirsty beast, there are noble reasons to fight.

Of course I don't really get in many actual fights but you know it still applies...


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19469541 - 01/24/14 09:03 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

It didn't have to be just in the context of DBZ, but Gohan had to lose his compassion for Cell. It already made my point for me in a way, but being loving towards people doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to be a stone cold bastard in telling them the truth should you desire a change, and even if they fight it with their ego in that moment, it's something that will stick with them. People blow up in ways that are not normal to their behavior when they get into denial like that, and it's typically something that will be on their mind simply because of their own unusual reaction.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ara16w]
    #19469544 - 01/24/14 09:05 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

i think love always works. sometimes though, if you choose that route, you find out what true emotional intensity really is. As for DBZ i think Gohan just went super chi warrior on cell's ass, but I do think they Saiyans are typically good dudes. Even Vegeta and his huge inferiority complex lol.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19469562 - 01/24/14 09:11 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Illuminatus bro.. The World Bank, the Rockafellers, Morgans, and other scammers. As much as I'd like to believe that love for those people would change them, it's highly improbable. I honestly have more faith in a serial killer being "restored" than the people running the world. No amount of kindness and compassion despite their actions is likely to change them in this lifetime.

There's a whole different arguement to be made that sometimes being a hardass is still choosing love I suppose.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ara16w]
    #19469596 - 01/24/14 09:27 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:

There's a whole different arguement to be made that sometimes being a hardass is still choosing love I suppose.




that's what i'm sayin. Even the corrupt bankers and politicians can't stand up to love, especially if everybody wakes up. But it starts with individuals.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19470256 - 01/25/14 12:57 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Compassion to me is ultimately negative.  Compares well with nostalgia, imo


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: PinkFloyd_420]
    #19470907 - 01/25/14 07:45 AM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Care to explain further?

To me, compassion refers to an active desire to alleviate suffering, brought about by an understanding into the nature of suffering combined with empathy--whereas nostalgia refers to a sentimental longing for a time past.

Unless you use different definitions, I'm not seeing the relation.


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #19472087 - 01/25/14 01:09 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

to me its the spontaneous impulse to help others, and that shouldn't be gotten rid of. it's what life is all about at a certain point. whether you are leading by example or actually using your words in a constructive way. compassion goes way beyond obvious acts like tending somebody's wounds, or what have you.


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OfflineVsnares.Zappa
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #19472108 - 01/25/14 01:13 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Compassion is part of evolution mang.:cool:


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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: g00ru]
    #19472129 - 01/25/14 01:18 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

it can be as simple as listening to someone talk about their problems, even if you aren't particularly interested or may have somewhere you prefer to be


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