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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19220191 - 12/02/13 11:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ellis Dee said: If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.
Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?
Regardless, compassion doesn't involve one actively forcing others to model their existence after that which you judge to be right--there are many ways to express compassion, to work towards the elimination of all suffering, that don't involve force--especially when one considers that force is often a cause of suffering, forceful compassion could even be said to be an oxymoron.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#19220211 - 12/03/13 12:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Ellis Dee said: If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.
Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?
yes!!!
But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19220251 - 12/03/13 12:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#19220315 - 12/03/13 12:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.
If you think you live in a bubble it becomes a bubble. What is the universe but a large bubble?
There's not any reason I see to change my experience to feel bad for other people. And it is only ego and judgmentalism that would cause a judgment, that another's experience is not what is best for them or make them happy in the long run. And so I will do what gives me greatest joy. I will be the change I want to see in the world, a being of joy and care free happiness.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Crystal G



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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: LiquidGlass] 1
#19220374 - 12/03/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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LiquidGlass said: I do not help people to change the world or make it a better place, I am not delusional you see. I do it for no other reason then that it makes me feel good, so in a way it could be considered selfish.
I do it because frankly, I consider a life of selfishness to be devoid of meaning. You are not living a useful or purposeful life if the only person you seek to satiate is yourself. People who exist and live solely for themselves are a waste of human flesh, and have no concept of philanthropy or helping others. So instead, they extravagantly spend their money on dump crap and go about their way completely mindless of anything besides their own narcissism. And if they aren't oblivious to people who are suffering far below them, they are probably taking advantage of them.
People who live for themselves have no value beyond themselves. Nobody would even miss them if they died. On the other hand, people who live for others hold the true value in life, and they will be remembered by many upon their passing.
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AmazonianGuru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
#19220382 - 12/03/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have compassion for people who have poops that burn their bum.
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deladude
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: AmazonianGuru] 2
#19220385 - 12/03/13 01:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Selfishness is by far the best way to live life, it's done me nothing but good.
-------------------- losers always talk about doing their best, winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Crystal G]
#19220393 - 12/03/13 01:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Crystal G said:
Quote:
LiquidGlass said: I do not help people to change the world or make it a better place, I am not delusional you see. I do it for no other reason then that it makes me feel good, so in a way it could be considered selfish.
I do it because frankly, I consider a life of selfishness to be devoid of meaning. You are not living a useful or purposeful life if the only person you seek to satiate is yourself. People who exist and live solely for themselves are a waste of human flesh, and have no concept of philanthropy or helping others. So instead, they extravagantly spend their money on dump crap and go about their way completely mindless of anything besides their own narcissism. And if they aren't oblivious to people who are suffering far below them, they are probably taking advantage of them.
People who live for themselves have no value beyond themselves. Nobody would even miss them if they died. On the other hand, people who live for others hold the true value in life, and they will be remembered by many upon their passing.
I find that idea completely wrong. To me the only meaningful life is the happy and fulfilled life so that is not compatible with compassion, at least not to me.
You have preconceptions about what a fulfilled life is and is not and your belief includes a judgment because it includes resistance to the opposite opinion, which is your ego defense mechanism. I hold no beliefs or judgments about what will give your life meaning to you and have no opinion on it except that it is completely wrong for me.
I prefer not to be caught up in other peoples problems and drama. To you, I guess you get a meaningful life. I don't judge that. In fact I completely support you continuing to do that if you get the most fulfillment and happiness from having a dramatic life. I choose to impartially observe you doing that and it gives me joy to observe without interfering and without passing judgment.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee] 1
#19221369 - 12/03/13 10:05 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ellis Dee said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Is this even possible though? We don't live in a bubble--the choices we make, even if made solely from personal motive, will still effect others around us--their choices will still effect us.
If you think you live in a bubble it becomes a bubble. What is the universe but a large bubble?
There's not any reason I see to change my experience to feel bad for other people. And it is only ego and judgmentalism that would cause a judgment, that another's experience is not what is best for them or make them happy in the long run. And so I will do what gives me greatest joy. I will be the change I want to see in the world, a being of joy and care free happiness.
Thinking you live in a bubble doesn't make it so--your choices still effect others whether you are consciously aware of it or not--are you a solipsist? Because I'm not sure how you can otherwise believe that merely thinking you live in a bubble is enough--the universe may be understandable as a huge bubble, but this doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that you are the only sentient being within this bubble.
Anyways, I'm not here debate your world view, so much as I am here to defend the concept of compassion--which you appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of.
Your first misunderstanding, which others have already attempted to clarify, is that compassion is a negative emotion, a bad feeling. Though it is true that compassion requires having a deep awareness of the suffering of others and the ability to empathize, this is not the same as "feeling bad for other people"--compassion is a form of love, and it feels good to love others. In fact, within Buddhist philosophy, it's generally understood that compassion is a selfish emotion, meaning that it grants a benefit to the self and as such is desired by the ego, until one has reached the status of a selfless enlightened being.
Your second misunderstanding, one which I have attempted to clarify already, is that compassion is forcing others to live their life according to your own value judgments. I'll simply reiterate that this is not so, forceful compassion is an oxymoron.
Thirdly, you seem to be trying to associate 'ego' and 'judgmentalism' with 'compassion' as if this association would void the concept of compassion. Another word for 'judgmentalism' would be 'opinion'--and all selfish beings (meaning those that identify with a personal self, an ego) will have an opinion--it is part of our nature to create value judgements--and this is why, as I mentioned above, Buddhism has two concepts of compassion, that which arises from a selfish being, and that which arises from a selfless being--selfish compassion isn't seen as worthless, but the acknowledgement is still made that it will have a personal bias contained within it. Ego and judgmentalism are aspects of being a selfish being, and will still exist whether we decide to practice compassion or not--I hope you don't think your decision to leave others to live their own lives means that you avoid making value judgments--we all have them, and as such, it seems irrelevant to apply your criticism of them only to compassionate acts.
Compassion is the ability to understand the emotional state of another person or oneself, combined with having a desire to alleviate or reduce the suffering of another. It is not commiseration or pity, though it is often confused as such.
And once more, if you want a personal reason to cultivate compassion, understand that self-compassion is directly related to compassion towards others. You cannot understand your own suffering, without attaining an understanding of the suffering of others--and you cannot practice self-compassion without having an understanding of your own suffering.
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Edited by shivas.wisdom (12/03/13 10:10 AM)
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#19221660 - 12/03/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If that is what works for you then by all means continue. In the enlightenment trilogy the author takes a harsh trail to get there. Some people take easier trails to get the same goal. If you are Buddhist with conventional ideas you probably consider all to be illusion like the world isn't real or is a dream. If that is so then why have compassion for creatures in a world that isn't even real, its illusion. By recognizing that and reacting accordingly it seems to me that compassion would become a quaint idea. From war to pollution, its not real if the world is illusory, so why expend your energy on an illusory problem? I don't see any reason to. In fact it seems to me that the only reason to have compassion is hanging on tot he idea that at least your body or other peoples bodies are real. I don't think they are. I'm not any more real than any other illusion. Only consciousness of which I'm part of the grid of is real, so why concern myself with compassion for a holographic dream that only seems real to the dreaming?
The above is presuming traditional Buddhist concepts on your part. If not correct my attempt at explaining from your point of view may be off and I'll try again after I get a better handle on it. Of course, like Liquid Glass pointed out, my sharing my opinion is a form of compassion, trying perhaps to aid fellow travelers. But it is done because it makes me pleased to share this idea, not out of some concept of changing others which I can't do even if I want to, because we're all illusory people who's perhaps only real aspect is a consciousness.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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KremrBigSikter
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221715 - 12/03/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would say that compassion is the most important ability a person can have. Some guru dude I listened to once said that empathy is ego-reinforcing because it creates a separation between you and other people or something like that. I don't know about that, but it's certainly better than an ego-reinforcing lifestyle of no compassion.
-------------------- I have pneumonia
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JacksonMetaller
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221837 - 12/03/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ellis Dee said:
Quote:
highc said: Without compassion this world would be closer to shit then it already is. You wouldn't feel bad for situations people are in and thus never help them.
Maybe we'd all be happier if nobody had compassion but just tried to live a joyous existance. There will always be suffering around so stop caring about it amd stop having compassion and you'll be happier no matter how shit the world is around you.
There's a huge loss of logic in what you just said. "we'd ALL be happier". Obviously, that's not going to apply to the one suffering. Acknowledging suffering does not decrease my quality of life. It's when other people don't acknowledge that suffering that causes a decrease in my happiness. Ie, when people don't have compassion and do the things that simply make them "happy" while blatantly causing suffering to others.
So no, i think we need more compassion. The synonyms you picked were out of context imo. Compassion isn't US feeling bad for others. It's us being able to relate our bad experiences to what others are feeling and offer them the comfort and support that we wish we had when we went through those experiences ourselves. When you say you feel bad for someone, it doesn't mean that you need to sit there and live out their suffering for them. It means that you recognize their suffering as a feeling you can identify with
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: KremrBigSikter]
#19221921 - 12/03/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think part of the problem is that compassion has become a perceived necessity of being a good or moral person the way logic is needed to be rational. But this is a judgment formed that may be in error. For me it is not correct. I am on a path to becoming a butterfly and there are many metaphorical cocoons people can live in to emerge as a butterfly. Me, I realize its not real and dive right smack into the middle of it and tell the truth about it. There is no need for compassion because the world is perfect. Some discomfort even what is perceived as pain and suffering is perfect and illusion anyway so there is no reason to have compassion about it.
Unlike the guru you mentioned I do not see compassion as needed for losing the ego. In fact, associating with empathy leads to the idea that suffering is in fact real as are the things seeming to experience it. I can make this very simple, none of that is anything but my perception and there is no reason to have compassion for whatever my limited perceptions are.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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larry.fisherman
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221940 - 12/03/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Compassion is the hurt we feel in honour of the joy we know the others around us should share. You've got it half right bud, but not everything comes along with a negative connotation.
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moonrockmushy
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221966 - 12/03/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't wake up and decide if I am going to be compassionate that day. Some days I probably have more than others, but I don't think it has that much to do with my general happiness.
If any of us could fuck with human conscious in the sense that we could snip out parts that we didn't like we'd probably fuck it all up. Shits complicated.
I feel bad for others alot, but I hate when other people feel bad for me. I always think that if some other people have it so much worse than me how can I feel like I have it so bad sometimes. How does that work out and does it actually end up being fair? Like all this feeling of what you deserve in life is relative to your given fate so there is no reason to feel bad.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221988 - 12/03/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Life is all about helping those who need help, and hurting those who need hurt.
There is no other joy than that.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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g00ru
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19221998 - 12/03/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ellis Dee said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Ellis Dee said: If the judgmental ego is fighting for its life it'll force delusions like that into all religions. I'm saying that compassion is irrelevant to me. The palace of delusion is in judgmentalism and thinking that we should try to interfere in people's existances. The role we play in a successful trip through the material world involves observing the movies in the movie theatre, and not trying to be the characters on the screen.
Are you suggesting the ideal way to live is as a completely detached observer?
yes!!!
But beyond just observing also living to do what makes you happy and full of joy.
if you just purely observe then compassion will arise naturally from that because you will see how people are just confused and really they have no huge cause for concern
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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larry.fisherman
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: moonrockmushy] 1
#19222022 - 12/03/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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When I hear compassion I do not think of my own pain. I think of beautiful moments. For instance, once I was on the lake fishing. It became choppy quite quick and the skies darkened. Rain poured down as waves washed over our small 12' piece of aluminum. The distant islands and rocky shores were but haze. Fear gripped us but onward we pressed to mouth of the bay where safety waited. Suddenly the darkened skies parted and the rains slowly satisfied, the haze lifted as I watched a perfect ray of light run between the illuminated clouds. A loons call perfected the moment, sweeping the valley with its song. It made for such a perfect moment, one I will never forget. Compassion, is my heart in a perfect moment. Only when it's muddied by my own weakness am I ashamed. That's life my friend, and nothing will stop me from being all I am, except myself.
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deCypher



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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Ellis Dee]
#19222029 - 12/03/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ellis Dee said: Assuming that we should be joyful creatures compassion makes no sense. A synonym is to pity or feel bad for others. We should never have those bad feelings, thus compassion is one of the worst traits a human can have. I am announcing that religions and gurus got it wrong. Do not have compassion or pity and live a joyous life instead!!!
I agree.
1. Become a sociopath. 2. Enjoy your newfound freedom from negative emotions such as guilt, fear, remorse, and empathy. 3. ???? 4. Profit!
So, now that we've discovered the key to happiness and enlightenment, how do we go about actually doing it? I suspect habitual desensitization to violence would help, but how do I rid myself of those pesky morals that society has ingrained into my brain?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icyus
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Re: Compassion may be the worst thing in the world [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#19222071 - 12/03/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wizard Dee... we want you to know this:
"There is nothing that exists that has only one side. Even a piece of paper, thin as it is, has two sides." -Darken Rahl
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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