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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19222080 - 12/03/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I understand that a lot of people seem to feel there is a lot on the line. For me I'm just trying to grow my understanding of the hobby. As for results I think that there is way too much emphasis being placed on yields with everything else being regarded as a means to an end. If learning, ease of use, enjoyment of the process were unimportant we would not be recommending things like pf tek. I fully appreciate that yield is a large measure of success in this hobby, but we get too hung up on it IMO. While I am curious as to what kind of yield I can get from this, I am also very interested in the process as a whole. This is not my livelihood, I work 70 hours a week to pay my bills. This is what I do to enjoy myself.

As for the culture being used, I have had some pretty good success with this one. Check out my sterilized substrate thread as I am also using it there as well. So far the sterilization seems to be doing alright :smile:

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Also on a positive note, thanks Violet for the clarification on bottom watering and when it needs to be applied. I had the impression that you just kept adding it as it disappeared. Might be something you would want to spend a little more time on in your write up.



Yeah might be.  I don't want to just complicate it with explanation-isms, for the most part it's almost as direct as you see it.  If people come at it thinking it's any more complex than I describe in the tek then they'll come at learning the dynamic with all kinds of thought processes cluttering what they do and what they think it means.  I was just adding a detail for those able to digest it.





Fair enough. Might be an idea to start a separate thread discussing the smaller nuances of your process and link to it at that point in the tek :shrug:


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19222137 - 12/03/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This whole thread ought to be locked.  Apparently some users are simply not mature enough to have a technique criticized.  I reported some of the more abstract threads.  Hopefully they get deleted before this thread really gets derailed. 

Good luck!


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: HypnotoadCroaked] * 1
    #19222164 - 12/03/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

C'mon, that's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There was bound to be a few hiccups given what a sensitive subject this has been. But it's my hope that this helps to clear some of the air, and if it does, I think the community will be better in the end.

Imagine it, bulkers and vtek people helping noobs with their projects regardless of what tek is being employed.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19222179 - 12/03/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I fully appreciate that yield is a large measure of success in this hobby, but we get too hung up on it IMO. While I am curious as to what kind of yield I can get from this, I am also very interested in the process as a whole. This is not my livelihood, I work 70 hours a week to pay my bills. This is what I do to enjoy myself.



Then I think you're really going to enjoy this tek.
It fits into lifestyle so easily.  Kitchen cupboard with tupperware containers,  a stock of rice with the food and/or bag of grass seed on the porch or shed,  a pressure cooker next to a pressure cookbook making the most of our tools... If you use the liter containers and go all invitro, this is all it takes!  For full expansion one only need add a tad of sifted potting soil and just about whatever kind of FC one likes.

As you know, it's also very simple and brief, designed to cut huge heaps of process out of the grow.  You may miss some of those facets but there's no reason you can't do them anyway!

We already prepare, sterilize, and inoculate grains.  This technique goes straight from that to fruiting,  using watering as a substitute for buying and preparing bulk subs,  lots of high-energy pasteurizing runs, breaking-up our sterile success, throwing all those eggs into one basket during an unclean procedure, mixing it into uncolonized sub in untreated environs, and having to dispose of a spent substrate 3-10 times the size whenever one little contam shows instead of isolating the contam and letting the majority of the grow continue.


If skipping steps and reducing materials and energy is something you'd dig for the grow's niche in your life, then you'll dig.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Might be an idea to start a separate thread discussing the smaller nuances of your process and link to it at that point in the tek



Yeah that would probably be cool.  Perhaps sometime down the road.  With as super-sensitive and edgy as so many people seem to be already I don't want to seem like I'm flooding the boards.  Besides, I'm kindof starting to grow tired of forums, not the forums themselves but the effectively unchecked environment anyone can mess up.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (12/03/13 01:20 PM)


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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19222209 - 12/03/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Accidental post. For some reason this page was not refreshed when I posted. Sorry. :guiltyascharged:

edit #2


Probably will be following Violets tek soon. Btw perhaps not the best place to ask this but to Violet and whoever else have you tried this tek on any edibles yet?


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Edited by d0urd3n (12/03/13 01:23 PM)


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: d0urd3n]
    #19222367 - 12/03/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i just read all that
:girlofdisapproval:
can we make some bets people lol!


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Offlinenn-IlliniSpiralDMT
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19222781 - 12/03/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Last but far from least!  Pasty!

I'm glad you're doing this.
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Seeing as no one here is willing to do any kind of objective experiment



At least not posting about it.  Indeed, unfortunate.
Surely there are lots of people doing objective experiments.  I get private messages time to time from such people, often users who have not even posted once before.
May it suffice to say that I get lovely 'love' mail, and 0 'hate' mail.

Even more unfortunate is how there are still so many who DO post who have NOT done experiments, much less objective ones, that nonetheless feel as if they have somehow become armchair professionals on the topic for these forums.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If I am doing anything terribly wrong on the V tek side (and I'm sure I already have) please let me know, I wish to get the best results with it that I can.



Will do!

And indeed you already have.  It's a small thing though - your containers are loaded quite high up.  Not "too" high, but certainly higher than I've learned is best to do them.  I fill them up to the Cup (8oz) mark at the most.

Surface drying problems and especially side-pins are more likely to happen with tall-loaded containers.
It's already quite likely that you have to overcome difficulties with that anyway, recalling what you tell me of your environs.


EDIT:  I see now that this is because of the G2G transfer.  As you said, hopefully this won't be a big deal for you.
I've not done G2G in many months, inoc'ing the many culture tests I've been doing only with agar wedge.  I love it, and will only return to grass seed G2G for huge expansions once I've for sure found my culture buddy.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
At no point do I want this to represent the final word on these methods. God forbid that one attempt or another tanks and I bear the blame forever more for throwing the comparison.



Very very wise.

Hell, sometimes I even throw my own comparisons.
There are many reasons to take your results with a grain of salt.
As I've said to people before, "When you've followed my tek as per, understand and incorporate the water dynamic, and you pull it off with the same maximizing excellence as your other grows, only then can you speak as if you have comparable knowledge on it."  This went for me just like it goes for everyone.

If one doesn't learn how little maintenance is required to work these things without messing them up (almost always because of Drying) the results per cake will be as little as PF tek, wasting much of the 2-3x capability that the straight-grain cakes have.

Of course there's a learning curve of the more gentle and low-maintenance environments these cakes require.  It's not harder than bulks, quite easier in fact,  but it's possible that having come from learning the Bulk environment angle first could bring "negative transference" towards how to treat these substrates instead.

And then there's watering, something that's ridiculously easy but must be learned.  You don't always just put water in there when there is none.  If they're not fruiting, they won't draw it up and it will sit there not helping.  Yet if you don't provide it when they need, the fruits will stop growing and expand their caps when they could have kept going.
When I fail to bottom-water more than Once for a flush,  the yield I get in grams is about exactly the same as how many milliliters of water I added.
So when they're not drawing water and not doing anything yet, it's best that they not be wallowing in it.  When they are drawing water, it has to keep coming for optimum yield.


Even attempts at isolating variables, such as using an isolated culture (isolate cultures will perform quite differently in such different circumstances), will not truly make it a fully scientific comparison. It's not possible to do so without factoring in every little thing which most people won't fully consider.


A strain that does fine for me with the hefty first flush of bulk, may have such delay between flushes that it doesn't have enough time to catch up with multiple flushes on straight-grain.  Another example of the playing-field-leveling traits of bulk.
Such may seem to be an "advantage" for bulk substrates, but really all it is is a potential enabler for multi-spore cultures or lesser-quality cultures to not do as poorly.
Personally I would throw out that culture, whereas a "bulk" grower may be content with the big flush results and not become aware of culture inferiority.

If you take advantage of strong culturing,  and find cultures that put their subsequent flushes quickly with large potent flushes etc., then the playing field being leveled is actually a DISadvantage for quite a few reasons, as it's not fully possible for bulk growing to take full advantage of the high points so-to-speak.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Finally, I do not want this to turn into a flame war or a platform for drama. That is not why I started this project, and if I feel that it is turning into such, I will simply ask a mod to lock the thread. Lets try and use this as a means of discovery.




Let's see if people can actually keep their heads enough to focus only on the facts,
instead of pandering to spin, vague affirmations, unbacked claims, personal slander slur or redirection, or inaccurate comparisons such as pretending that other "straight-grain" grows have anything to do with the seed & plastic tek.




Pasty, in keeping with the whole name-it-what-is-done thing,
remember that Watering Small unbroken consolidated grain cakes for multiple flushesis the important thing.
First part "Watering", second part "small unbroken consolidated grain cakes", third part "multiple flushes."

If there's not sufficient watering, if the cakes are ever crumble-and-cased (which I know you're not doing here), if the grain substrates are larger than a baseball, or if full flushes aren't taken,  (all 4 of which Frank did in his "experiments")  they are Certain to be out-performed by bulk substrate methods where they get extra sub for water reservoir and retention.

Without fully providing the grain's nutrition with all the water they need to expend their nutrition, just like bulk substrates do, this would not be anywhere near an even comparison.
People (like Frank shown above) are happy to pretend that such an improper comparison is objective,  and if you don't keep tabs on that kind of twisted spin the thread is quite likely to get out-of-hand with their personal attacks in return for when I inevitably point out the nonobjective and incorrect.  Just giving you a heads-up, this has happened before and could happen again.




I must say Violet you are one strong independent women! Will you marry me?:lmafo: Just kidding but seriously the way you quarrel turns me on...

FRANK GOT THE :kelsoburn:

On a more serious note I will be watching this thread! Hell I might even go get some extra pp5 containers since all of mine have thanksgiving leftovers in them:thumbup:


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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19222993 - 12/03/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Whippy said: I won't ever do it, so I really don't care what its called.



Care enough to post about it though?  Pfft.

That "name" is too long of course.  It's like the subtitle to the tek's headline.




BWNoBS Tek. problem solved. Also amusing.


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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: lessarbob]
    #19223024 - 12/03/13 04:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Onward through the fog Pasty.

Good luck, hope you are able to get some good results with both methods. It will be interesting to see a comparison.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: budkatz]
    #19223102 - 12/03/13 04:48 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Spawning grain to coir/verm is so simple. No offense to anyone but we must take that simplicity into account when comparing the 2. Showing a newbie how to grow using todays bulk methods doesn't require a 10 page write up. That and it's proven success is impossible to dispute.


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Offlinenn-IlliniSpiralDMT
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Stromrider]
    #19223126 - 12/03/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stromrider said:
Spawning grain to coir/verm is so simple. No offense to anyone but we must take that simplicity into account when comparing the 2. Showing a newbie how to grow using todays bulk methods doesn't require a 10 page write up. That and it's proven success is impossible to dispute.




Honestly the V-tek is simple too. And it requires less supply and a less chance of contams if proper procedure is taken into account. Although with bulk it's hard to argue the utter simplicity of it. For small scale I'd prefer the v-tek but if you want bulk...well bulk it lol.

The only thing I don't like is having a lot of pp5 containers, I hate plastic, and appreciate the fact that glass is 100% recyclable.


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InvisibleJohnnieYen
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: nn-IlliniSpiralDMT]
    #19223133 - 12/03/13 04:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

pp5 or polypropylene is recyclable too y'know.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19223198 - 12/03/13 05:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Violet, I just took a look at the bottom water tek for the first time in a while. You may remember my criticism of it being long winded and full of fluff. It looks like some improvements have been made in the write-up.

I find it easier to read and it gets to the heart of the tek. There also seems to be some helpful information that I didn't see before. Over all, the post seems much more concise. Which goes a long way when trying to sell "efficiency".

I have not tried bottom watering because I am a skeptic on it's efficiency of effort and space versus yield. But, because I find the tek easier to read, I may give it a go. The proof is in the pudding.

I will refer to it as "bottom watering" or "the bottom water tek" until someone comes up with something better. Bottom watering seems to be at the heart of the tek and is the significant difference and you didn't come up with it, as you said.

I think the name "V-Tek" stuck because the tek is soooo much associated with Violet. Because of the name association, the attempts to discredit it, unfortunately, have also been associated with trying to discredit you as a person. This issue is further exacerbated by Anne. Sorry, but fair or not, it's true.

I offer my apologies for my words that have helped make the negative association worse. I for one will no longer criticize the tek until after I give an open minded and honest go.

You and Frank need to get a room.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19223308 - 12/03/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nice to see an honest go.:thumbup:

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
IF at anytime a pre first flush contam kills one side or another, the experiment will be no contest




I think contamination is part of the test. There have been claims that the bottom watering method (BWM, BotWa, hydroponic, aquaponic :shrug:) has lower contam rates than dealing with pasteurized subs.

If you get a contam, you should let us know the details.


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InvisibleStool_Sample
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19223497 - 12/03/13 06:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

For contams to be part of the result, Pasty, should Do another run at least for a
ratio of - - Blank out of 2 tries - - such and such happened.

Either he would be aware of his failure or he then has evidence of a poor Tek.
:2cents:

and :fireworship: on


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Stool_Sample]
    #19223548 - 12/03/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stool_Sample said:
For contams to be part of the result, Pasty, should Do another run at least for a
ratio of - - Blank out of 2 tries - - such and such happened.



I'm thinking of giving it a few goes anyway, just to get some averages and play with different controls. Maybe run this one a little loose, next could be a strict side by side in dual SGFC's and a final one where I take max advantage of each teks potential like a 66 quart rye spawn mono vs 14 RGS containers. That way by the end I will hopefully have a good grasp of the v teks nuances and get the most out of it. Might be nice to see it with different cultures as well. APE anyone?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19223676 - 12/03/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Inoculating and colonizing grain in containers is the same whether that container is glass or plastic.  A contam only indicate a single failure in clean technique during that transfer.
At the point where one would have a colonized glass jar ready to "spawn", one is already Done preparing the bottom-watered container tek grow.  Where an effective difference in contamination could manifest is how bulk substrate colonization offers another chance for contamination past the point that the 'vtek' containers are ready to fruit.

Fully-colonized substrates are super resistant to contamination and the healthy straight-grain cakes can survive a Long time before contamination.
I've even tested the extent of this by keeping some half-flushed cakes in their containers without providing water so that they stop pinning, then finally giving them water again and seeing them perk right back up.  I currently have had a dozen extra-shallow cakes that have been sitting for 2 weeks without being given water.  If the substrate isn't expended then the mycelium are still healthy and defend themselves seemingly indefinitely until they are provided the water necessary to expend.  Once given water they'll get right back to doing their thing.  So I find this grow technique to be ridiculously contam-resistant, both in keeping the whole process within our otherwise beginning stages of sterile work, and in having incredible hardiness and defense to contams once finally exposed.  I'm to the point that I don't throw out contaminated cakes anymore, only spent cakes.  What few contams I've seen in months have been on agar.


If you unscrew your lids when substrate is uncolonized, you're asking for early contams, just like if you took your jar lid off before fully-colonized.  On the extremely rare chance that a properly-loaded container stalls from CO2 buildup, only about 1/4 inch turn loose is necessary to pop the seal of the lid off of the rim of the container, allowing excess gases to be pushed out without giving an entryway for contam spores.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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OfflineSgt. Pepper
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19223708 - 12/03/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

On the extremely rare chance that a properly-loaded container stalls from CO2 buildup, only about 1/4 inch turn loose is necessary to pop the seal of the lid off of the rim of the container, allowing excess gases to be pushed out without giving an entryway for contam spores.



I'm not doubting this at all, but how is this possible? If you break the seal and let unfiltered air in, wouldn't that inevitably contaminate the grain? I have seen it work so I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm just trying to understand the process.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19223762 - 12/03/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If you hold a container up to the light and play with the lid around the tightness point, you'll see what's going on at the lid's seal.
There are 2 thin 'rings' of plastic, the space between them being the width of the container's rim.  When you screw down the lid it lowers these two plastic 'flaps' so-to-speak over the edge of the container.  When you Unscrew it just a tiny bit, you can see that it lifts the seal of the lid off of the plastic, without clearing the rim of the two flaps. Gas can be pushed around it, but the "still-air" effect of still-air boxes makes it nearly impossible for mold spores to travel amongst the maze of threads and over that protected edge.

Screwing the lid even more loosely not only totally lifts the seal from the rim but shortens the path amongst the threads.  It will definitely not defend from mold spores when much over 1 1/2 inches loosened.
The sweet spot between the two (with Ziplocs at least) is 1 to 1.25 inches loosened, and this point is what I use to trigger invitro pinning while still staying effectively sterile.

Mind you, having all kinds of moving air around the containers with loosened lids means these looseness degrees are exaggerated.  Much less of a crack will have the same results in tumultuous atmosphere.  Not a problem once colonized (except maybe for "grain petris") but can lead to contams when loosening lids during colonization.  Fortunately I find this to always be unnecessary anyway! I always keep 'em tight till ready to go.


Some loose-lid tibits :]  You'll see it.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
    #19223808 - 12/03/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
I will engage you in conversation no further here, because we all know where that conversation goes.



Yes, we all know that you continuing to discuss this will involve you posting bunch of useless re-quotes,  graemlins,  spin, personal attacks and contrivances,  continuing to focus on the personal aspect - without the least bit of ADDRESSING THE FACTS, just like that post.



Called it AGAIN!  :hehehe:

C'mon, Frank, is this predictably useless posting all you have to try saving face?





lets knock off the bullshit before I have to whip out the :banhamster:


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