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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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PrimalSoup said:
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Even if the numbers do works out in the end who wants to wait around for that many flushes to get the yield. Seems like a lot of extra time and work to me
Opportunity for contams to take hold as well - although I sometimes get 5-6 flushes out of bulk minitubs usually it's less, and of course there's the diminishing returns as the sub ages. More fun (IMHO) to get those big early flushes. 
PS
QFT!
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Third Stone From The Sun
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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PrimalSoup said:
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would cased grains work for other dung lovers or wood lovers that can be grown indoors?
No
Not for straight-up wood lovers, no. They won't fruit on it IME. 
PS
I was talking edibles like oysters or reishi, not azures that don't even fruit inside under optimal conditions.
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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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I've fruited Ps. cyanescens indoors, in a slightly modified fridge. Once you get pin formation (low temp) they don't mind a bit of an increase 'cause, I guess, they're committed. But years ago I had a thermostat malfunction that nearly killed the Ps. cyan culture, but what survived had some sort of crazy mutation as it would fruit on cased grain with vast potency. I've been able to germinate spores from that (about 18 years in storage) but haven't yet been able to fully restore the strain... 
PS
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 5,487
Loc: Middle
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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update?
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 2 minutes, 39 seconds
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: twistedty]
#19393903 - 01/09/14 02:18 PM (10 years, 21 days ago) |
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twistedty said: update?
Yeah should be time to harvest that tub today or tomorrow
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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I will see how she looks when I get home from work
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Yes indeed Pasty your cased grain containers are looking pretty pathetic so far. I figured they would for several reasons some of which have already been mentioned.
And of course, just as predicted, here we have Captain Contrivance playing as if that means something it doesn't.
"There are many reasons to take your results with a grain of salt. As I've said to people before, "When you've followed my tek as per, understand and incorporate the water dynamic, and you pull it off with the same maximizing excellence as your other grows, only then can you speak as if you have comparable knowledge on it." This went for me just like it goes for everyone."
"If one doesn't learn how little maintenance is required to work these things without messing them up (almost always because of Drying) the results per cake will be as little as PF tek, wasting much of the 2-3x capability that the straight-grain cakes have."
"Even if 10 people post half-knowledgeable attempts similar to my grow style with mediocre cultures and lackluster water, how does that change the fact of what I see happen in front of me all the time?"
As nice as your culture is for the circumstances from which you cloned it Pasty, you'd do well to note that all my old 'bulk' clones performed poorly on this method compared to cultures taken and tested with this method.
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pastywhyte said:
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Sgt. Pepper said:
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They are pretty small, that's why I'm thinking I need to do some bottom watering, just there does not seem to be much of a gap between the sub and the sides Maybe I'll try with a syringe tomorrow.
At least they're pretty! So far it looks like bulk kinda trumps cased grains, but I'm excited to see how the rest of the pp5 containers do.
Well the jury will be out until all flushes are in and counted. I believe that in spite of the smaller flushes of the V tek, that is supposed to be offset by the number of them. If bulk only manages two or three flushes, and the V tek makes it for seven, the numbers may work out in the end.
It's all about the water. These containers and cakes can only hold so much water at once. Thus they can only grow so much fruit at any given time. These whole grain cakes stay competely healthy until they've had enough water necessary to expend their nutrition. Cultures that are good at doing this will continue to pump out fruits until the nutrition is spent as long as water keeps being fed in.
For instance, I've recently done a round of invitro clone isolate culture tests in several containers with 1/3 cup of prepared rice each. These contained a very limited amount of water since before colonization and some is lost to evaporation.
The 2 isolates which seem best so far yielded just 10 fresh grams each for their first flushes... But once I started watering the following 4 flushes far exceeded it, each putting out about 16, 17, 15, then 13 grams... and they still are very healthy with lots of time and potential left for more!
A container loaded 1/2 of my prepared grass seed has about 60 grams of seed and 60 grams of water. Going by a maybe 335%BE expectancy per grains, similar to a pretty good bulk grow like yours, those 60g of seed could yield 20 fresh grams (18 dry). Yet with only 60g of water on hand at first, and likely some of that lost before the flush is done, that cake could only grow maximum a bit over 50 grams (5 dry) in its first flush. That's only 1/4 of its capability, whereas you expect like 2/3 or maybe even more of 'bulk' yields to come in the first flush due to all the water mass on hand. So of course the number of mushrooms on each in a first-flush photo will just about always look better from a bulk substrate but people who only know how to think and react to the face-value of photos will miss the all-important matter of TOTAL YIELD. The differences aren't nearly so vast as the photos appear... ... that is, when the tek is done well with a culture that suits it. No offense Pasty, but you simply haven't gotten to this point yet. Give it some time.
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Stromrider said: Even if the numbers do works out in the end who wants to wait around for that many flushes to get the yield. Seems like a lot of extra time and work to me
Oh, was that a rhetorical question? You're asking who waits for all flushes to get the most from their grows? I would say, anyone who likes making the most of their materials and efforts, which would be LOTS if not MOST.
Before you think your half-logic is any good, realize that the time in the mono chamber colonizing 'bulk' plus taking all (worthwhile) flushes until contams isn't nearly so much less time as you people who have not done this tek seem to think for some (no) reason.
And, when it's as easy as WAITING (if you can't wait, better fucking quit growing mushrooms) and WATERING (woe to the fool who actually thinks this is 'work') to make the most of our grows, I could make a long-winded explanation about why this take on the topic is Pandering and such conclusions based on that spin is utter Bias, but instead defer to a good-old-fashioned 'oh come on!'
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pastywhyte said: This is safer, like sex with a condom. Don't feel as good, is a lot more work, but at least it lasts longer 
Funny joke, but... Inapplicable. How is this "a lot more work"? You haven't even watered a single time yet, nor experienced how easy and low-maintenance this should be when done right. Any extra work for you is clearly due to how you've chosen to do it and not how it could be done. We've already talked about that.
I've done lots of both, so good luck convincing me that acquiring/storing, hydrating, heat-treating, inoculating, & dunking bulk subs is easier than adding a bit of water twice per flush. It'd be like trying to convince me that the long scenic route is a short cut - Duh, it isn't.
If need be, I'll bring in a couple photos with big flushes from containers that are like 3 months old, which have received practically Total neglect besides a few sporadic and lazy waterings.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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anne halonium
jaguarette



Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 1,908
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
#19394387 - 01/09/14 04:06 PM (10 years, 21 days ago) |
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its a paradigm shift violet.
ya cant really compare drag racing and dog racing. of course, those vested in dog tracks, will do what ya would expect.
naturally, since ya cant feed dragsters dog food, dragsters are the problem.
i see this as what it is, a mid level grow attempt at 2 types of grows, with all variables subject to bias.
all the grain peeps know the real score on this already.
whats telling most is, all grain peeps have the skill and resources to do bulks if they wanted to. yet they choose to do grains
a good portion of bulkers , lack the sterile skill or resource$, to pull off grains en masse , therefore the bias is written in , just by skill /logistics alone.
essentially, some grow using skill, talent, education, and resources and equip. but , frankly most dont give a flying fawk about that or BE, and just want a pan full with lea$t pain possible.
oddly , im not against that, and see their point sorta.
ive come to the conclusion, that some, may never master basic lab skills, so let em bucket it up..........they seem happy enough. its a bliss thing.
i commend the effort on this thread, but no matter how it plays , i dont think anyone is gonna be moved. too many variables.
i bulked all thru the 80s....... they could pull a semi truck load out of a bulk shoebox, and a thimble full load from a grain silo, and ,it wouldnt affect my grow paradigm one iota.
been there , done that.
^no need to riot, just checking in...... please proceed, i consider this a good thread.
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J. Jack Flash
stranger than ever.


Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 1,500
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
#19394554 - 01/09/14 04:44 PM (10 years, 21 days ago) |
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for fuck's sake, Violet. you really just double quoted yourself? your posts often come across as exceedingly condescending. why?
so ok, in order to settle this to a more exacting standard, how about you, and some preeminent bulk method adherent have a grow log showdown? you and your method, vs. them and theirs. setting as many variables equivalent as possible, determining all judgement criteria in advance, and set off to the races? sounds more worthwhile than you repeatedly talking down to people for not being as good as you perceive yourself and method to be.
or not.
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the j stands for jesus.2020 new years grow along
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Third Stone From The Sun
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Quote:
J. Jack Flash said: for fuck's sake, Violet. you really just double quoted yourself? your posts often come across as exceedingly condescending. why?
so ok, in order to settle this to a more exacting standard, how about you, and some preeminent bulk method adherent have a grow log showdown? you and your method, vs. them and theirs. setting as many variables equivalent as possible, determining all judgement criteria in advance, and set off to the races? sounds more worthwhile than you repeatedly talking down to people for not being as good as you perceive yourself and method to be.
or not. 
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 2 minutes, 39 seconds
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I guess I just don't get it violet
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farmer67
Stranger


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 14
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Now that was a long read. Hope results are worth the time. Lol Looking good will keep following
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BigGreenMat
Stranger

Registered: 11/04/13
Posts: 161
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: Violet]
#19394708 - 01/09/14 05:15 PM (10 years, 21 days ago) |
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Violet said: Yes indeed Pasty your cased grain containers are looking pretty pathetic so far. I figured they would for several reasons some of which have already been mentioned.
Perhaps you could be a little more specific violet? I think you are referring to watering, as in he hasn't watered at all except for the casing layer.
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Violet said:
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pastywhyte said:
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Sgt. Pepper said:
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They are pretty small, that's why I'm thinking I need to do some bottom watering, just there does not seem to be much of a gap between the sub and the sides Maybe I'll try with a syringe tomorrow.
At least they're pretty! So far it looks like bulk kinda trumps cased grains, but I'm excited to see how the rest of the pp5 containers do.
Well the jury will be out until all flushes are in and counted. I believe that in spite of the smaller flushes of the V tek, that is supposed to be offset by the number of them. If bulk only manages two or three flushes, and the V tek makes it for seven, the numbers may work out in the end.
It's all about the water. These containers and cakes can only hold so much water at once. Thus they can only grow so much fruit at any given time. These whole grain cakes stay competely healthy until they've had enough water necessary to expend their nutrition. Cultures that are good at doing this will continue to pump out fruits until the nutrition is spent as long as water keeps being fed in.
For instance, I've recently done a round of invitro clone isolate culture tests in several containers with 1/3 cup of prepared rice each. These contained a very limited amount of water since before colonization and some is lost to evaporation.
The 2 isolates which seem best so far yielded just 10 fresh grams each for their first flushes... But once I started watering the following 4 flushes far exceeded it, each putting out about 16, 17, 15, then 13 grams... and they still are very healthy with lots of time and potential left for more!
A container loaded 1/2 of my prepared grass seed has about 60 grams of seed and 60 grams of water. Going by a maybe 335%BE expectancy per grains, similar to a pretty good bulk grow like yours, those 60g of seed could yield 20 fresh grams (18 dry). Yet with only 60g of water on hand at first, and likely some of that lost before the flush is done, that cake could only grow maximum a bit over 50 grams (5 dry) in its first flush. That's only 1/4 of its capability, whereas you expect like 2/3 or maybe even more of 'bulk' yields to come in the first flush due to all the water mass on hand. So of course the number of mushrooms on each in a first-flush photo will just about always look better from a bulk substrate but people who only know how to think and react to the face-value of photos will miss the all-important matter of TOTAL YIELD. The differences aren't nearly so vast as the photos appear... ... that is, when the tek is done well with a culture that suits it. No offense Pasty, but you simply haven't gotten to this point yet. Give it some time.
So are you saying we should water to the amount we want to flush exactly? So lets say from my container with 1 cup of brown rice. If I want a 100g fresh flush I should at 100ml of water? That is what it sounds like and what makes sense to me, but you don't clearly state it. You seem to just be alluding to stuff rather than stating it. So for first flush of 1 cup of rice I want to use x ml of water to achieve y grams of fresh mushroom. Maybe give an ideal range so if you have a poor strain you can lowball it and if you have an ideal strain you can maximize it? This is why it is confusing to try to follow your tek. I am experimenting, but am not in a position to determine this myself yet.
-------------------- My Growth So Far!
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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This has been an education. I have been taken to school For the sake of my ongoing attempts, let me attempt to clarify whats going on.
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Violet said: Yes indeed Pasty your cased grain containers are looking pretty pathetic so far. I figured they would for several reasons some of which have already been mentioned.
Usually when a grow goes poorly its due to a few reasons.
Reason 1. Failure to follow the tek So far I have gone off tek in a few instances. Accidentally overfilled the containers, and I am aware just how detrimental those extra nutes can be. Used verm in the casing, this was off tek, but was just such a force of habit that I never realized I was doing it until after. Finally my bout of cold temps, but to be fair, the bulk spawn was also affected.
Now to examine the reasons that are not mentioned in the tek, which are just coming to light now. These are things that really should be mentioned in the tek, so that people know what they are getting into.
You have several times mentioned that you don't feel the SGFC was a good choice and that an unmodified tote would have been better. You yourself grow in a GH or invitro. A GH is not an option, and sorry but the invitro grows I have seen so far are limited in yield. They do serve as an excellent means for clean prints, but that's it IMO.
Frankly I do not think that a re-purposed mono or un-modded tote would have provided enough RH either. The SGFC has required some upkeep, but the fruits do not look like they are suffering from low RH. So unless there is some other reason that I am just not grasping, the SGFC seems to have performed its job.
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Violet said: FRUITING
They can fruit in practically any chamber. Shotgun terrariums, hi-humidity "greenhouses" or tents, old monotubs or unmodified totes work great and involve their own subtleties to work with this technique. I've even seen some other solutions used such as fishtanks, large water bottles, plastic storage baggies...
Perhaps there should be a disclaimer about a GH being needed for best results Not really an option for me at the moment. Maybe I will start saving pop bottles instead.
Reason 2. Poor genetics
Now this reason I think is the real meat and potatoes of the issue. The culture.
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Violet said: "Even if 10 people post half-knowledgeable attempts similar to my grow style with mediocre cultures
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Violet said: As nice as your culture is for the circumstances from which you cloned it Pasty, you'd do well to note that all my old 'bulk' clones performed poorly on this method compared to cultures taken and tested with this method.
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Violet said: Cultures that are good at doing this will continue to pump out fruits until the nutrition is spent as long as water keeps being fed in.
So are you saying that having a good fruiting strain, just won't cut the mustard? That it must be a culture that "prefers" V tek? How elusive is this V tek friendly culture? I guess any new growers using ms better bank on some crap results as well, regardless of conditions, unless they hit that magic combo as well. I find this argument rather convenient, since you can simply invalidate anyone's attempt at a comparison as being a poor V tek isolate. I know that the culture I used in comparison to the mega genetics you and anne must be packing is substandard and mediocre, however if I did find a "V tek preferred culture, by this logic, it would stand to reason then that the bulk would suffer. So to see this logic through, you could always argue that any attempt where the bulk beat the V tek, the culture just wasn't suitable. Way to eliminate any objective controls.
Guess its a good thing that I now know that my stored cultures are worthless if I decide to come over to the new age. Is there anything else I am missing? Are there certain varieties to avoid as well? I really like APE, is that one allowed?
Regardless of how much I have messed up on the V tek, I will also admit that I screwed up my bulk grow as well. Let it consolidate before spawning while waiting for the pp5s to catch up, late cased, sterilized my sub, etc. I will also say that I am actually disappointed in myself for my poor handling of this experiment, I have let down both sides.
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anne halonium said: i see this as what it is, a mid level grow attempt at 2 types of grows, with all variables subject to bias.
Your too kind. I truly am a trichy noob. Though I really did not want to have anything tilting the scales in favor of bulk. If the people out there believe that I have not been honest with this thread, then I shall take my grow elsewhere until such time that I am confident that I have the cultures and the skill to do this experiment justice. Fact is that no one is going to benefit from an attempt that has been stacked or fucked up as badly as it seems I have
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Yes, he has kept it reasonably fair
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No he stacked the deck
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Pasty's lack of skill has ruined any chance of a controlled result
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Yes I still want to see how this plays out
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No its a boring grow
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I don't care
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Votes accepted from (01/09/14 12:00 PM) to (01/11/14 04:20 PM) You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.Filter by response
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twistedty
Forcefully Retired



Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 5,487
Loc: Middle
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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dont matter i know a monotub is gonna own a bunch of cups.
especially isolates etc
its a no brainer
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 2 minutes, 39 seconds
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I think you've done a really good job so far doing a comparison between the 2 methods in a real world home growers scenario. Real world home growers have stuff come up. Things get neglected and shit happens.
I think what your comparison has shown so far is that growing bulk is very easy and will perform great in less than ideal conditions. Vtek on the other hand seems to require more work and brains than most of care to put in to get the results that some people claim you can get.
I'd appreciate no one to jump down my throat over this. It's just my observation so far
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Quote:
twistedty said: dont matter i know a monotub is gonna own a bunch of cups.
especially isolates etc
its a no brainer

We've never seen any hard evidence to the contrary...so until some pictures surface, all this rhetoric is just a waste of everyone's time.
And for the record, cultures do not "prefer" a particular substrate just because you cloned a fruit grown from that substrate. That is complete bullshit.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 2 minutes, 39 seconds
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Kind of what I figured. A good performing culture is a good performing culture.
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Too soon to speak that way maybe? Not even flush one? It's possible the vtek containers could get up and running. I was only observing so far, and mostly pointing to how hastily certain persons seem to be drawing biased or fallacious conclusions.
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BigGreenMat said: So are you saying we should water to the amount we want to flush exactly? So lets say from my container with 1 cup of brown rice. If I want a 100g fresh flush I should at 100ml of water? That is what it sounds like and what makes sense to me, but you don't clearly state it. You seem to just be alluding to stuff rather than stating it.
No, you're drawing some pretty creative statements for me to have supposedly implied. They'll only fruit what they'll fruit, but if they don't have the water for it they can't even do that much.
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Pastywhyte said: Perhaps there should be a disclaimer about a GH being needed for best results 
But it's not. Ideally it's for fanning/misting in unmodified totes. I haven't even had my GH set up for months.
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Pastywhyte said: The SGFC has required some upkeep, but the fruits do not look like they are suffering from low RH. So unless there is some other reason that I am just not grasping, the SGFC seems to have performed its job.
Yeah, this is only being discussed because you mentioned it being more work upkeeping the CONTAINERS when the work was actually because of the CHAMBER.
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Pastywhyte said: So are you saying that having a good fruiting strain, just won't cut the mustard? That it must be a culture that "prefers" V tek? How elusive is this V tek friendly culture?
Now that's not exactly what I'm saying (that happens a lot!) Being a "good fruiting strain" is Subjective, not an inherent quality that can be counted on regardless of the scenario it is put into.
No more elusive than any other strain... it just has to be found via the ability to express its strong points.
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Pastywhyte said: I guess any new growers using ms better bank on some crap results as well, regardless of conditions,
Well, kindof. My results with even so-so clone isolates is pretty much Always notably better than multi-spore.
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Pastywhyte said: I find this argument rather convenient, since you can simply invalidate anyone's attempt at a comparison as being a poor V tek isolate. So to see this logic through, you could always argue that any attempt where the bulk beat the V tek, the culture just wasn't suitable. Way to eliminate any objective controls.
Nonono. However it's one of many troubleshooting factors that are still open to be a viable explanation when results are not as good as they could be.
Because of my experience with clones from bulks, which I mentioned above, I've learned how it's possible that what appears to be a great culture on bulks will be seen to not do as well. I started from scratch with cultures when I saw that my cultures could be so much better, something I was unable to see due to how happy I had been with them on bulks.
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Pastywhyte said: however if I did find a "V tek preferred culture, by this logic, it would stand to reason then that the bulk would suffer.
If it stands to such reason, it's some imaginative reasoning.
Elsewhere I happened to have elaborated on examples of how such differences can manifest. I refer to it as the "playing-field leveling traits of bulks" or by the "haze" to culture perceptions that the use of bulk adds.
One example: Speed (frequency) of recurring flushes makes a huge difference. That big first flush coming in on bulk holds like 3/4 the yield, so if a given culture happens to take an extra whole week to bring on a second third and fourth flush, that doesn't manifest as much of a problem, perhaps hardly even being noticed as a trait of the culture. Thus such a culture would be used happily on bulks but would be inferior for my grows. However, a culture found to re-flush quickly on straight grains would also do so marvelously on those grains mixed with bulks.
Also, some may be better water movers than others. And some may not as courageously continue sizing up despite that the water they're doing so via is technically not in their substrate yet.
These are some of the traits that cannot or cannot easily be observed with the bulk methods (due to 100% of the water being present from knot to harvest) but manifest in mine. They also don't find as much relevance in bulk substrates in how they attribute to manifest results.
It's really hard to say for sure about these things, as the traits of the genetics themselves are unknown to us, rather we can only see how they manifest in different circumstances. These are different circumstances.
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Pastywhyte said: Guess its a good thing that I now know that my stored cultures are worthless if I decide to come over to the new age. Is there anything else I am missing? Are there certain varieties to avoid as well? I really like APE, is that one allowed?
I'm going to brush off the sarcastic stretch of what has really been said here, and just say- Not necessarily. I still have one of my "last-gen" cultures that does pretty darn well. This one. No photos are 1st flush, some are 2nd, most are 3-5th
    
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Well seeing as people still want to watch a . . .
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anne halonium said: a mid level grow attempt at 2 types of grows, with all variables subject to bias.
By a cultivator who. . .
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anne halonium said: may never master basic lab skills,
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anne halonium said: so let him bucket it up..........he seems happy enough.
Its true I sterilized my sub 
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anne halonium said: please proceed, i consider this a good thread.
I will get right on it 
Gonna need to take those guys.

My mediocre culture is starting to produce pins in some of the later containers, They are a little tough to see but will be more apparent soon. 
As for my "mid level" monotub with its mediocre genetics, its coming along ok, I suppose Probably need to harvest right while I at work, so I will probably end up with a sporesplosin 
Edited by Pastywhyte (01/09/14 08:55 PM)
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