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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Cased grains vs Bulk Substrates: V-Tek meets Bulk 7
#19219682 - 12/02/13 09:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ladies and Gentlemen! Cultivators of all ages! I am proud to present to you, V-TEK VS BULK!
Okay maybe its not that dramatic. However there has been a lot of debate on this board about these two methods, some of it heated to the point of meltdowns and flames. The one thing missing from these debates is any kind of objective experiments. Seeing as no one here is willing to do any kind of objective experiment I have decided to try my best to offer some kind of objective look at the pros and cons of both techniques.
Now before Violet or anne decide to protest my objectivity, allow me to point out that I'm sure that I am not the pro bulk crowds pic to showcase their cause either. I am merely an average cultivator doing his best to find the best that each method has to offer. As I have more experience with bulk, If I am doing anything terribly wrong on the V tek side (and I'm sure I already have) please let me know, I wish to get the best results with it that I can (I don't start projects with the intent for them to fail).
I will be updating the original post periodically with pics and observations, to keep the progress from being broken up by any discussion below. With these updates I plan to offer my own personal experience with each. Hopefully this becomes a good way to view my personal experience with this experiment.
Finally at no point do I want this to represent the final word on these methods. God forbid that one attempt or another tanks and I bear the blame forever more for throwing the comparison. IF at anytime a pre first flush contam kills one side or another, the experiment will be no contest. I may decide to do another one at that point.
Finally, I do not want this to turn into a flame war or a platform for drama. That is not why I started this project, and if I feel that it is turning into such, I will simply ask a mod to lock the thread. Lets try and use this as a means of discovery.
So now with no further ado, let the experiment commence!
My fruiting strategy will be; a SGFC which I believe will give the best results for these containers in my climate. For the bulk I plan to spawn to an mini mono which I have had success with in the past. Sub will be simple coir and verm, ratio will probably be between 1:1.5 - 1:2. I am still debating on casing the bulk tub. The V-tek will require on of course but, I am thinking of not doing one for the bulk as few people case cubes (though that may change if Frank has anything to do with it ) with the exception of PE. Opinions on this would be welcome.
Nov 30th- A fully colonized master of a monoculture was used to inoculate 6 PP5 containers and 2 quarts and a pint of grains. The master was a mix of rye and millet, which is fairly typical for me. These ratios were decided upon to make the amount of grain spawn for each method fairly consistent. Unfortunately I misjudged how much the inoculating grains would fill the PP5 containers, resulting in them being a little fuller than I believe the tek recommends. Hopefully this error due to my lack of familiarity with the tek does not end up being detrimental. I used rye because it is a grain who's prep I am familiar with.
Observations: PP5 containers lids were easy to remove for G2G and handle, though it feels almost too light in my hands. The fact that the tek calls for no lid modification is a plus. Hopefully they do not end up stalling, at which point I believe I can loosen the lid slightly, 1/4" turn. Lids for the jars are plastic lids with SFD's
Dec 2nd-
Inoculating grains have started to recover. Temps are a little low as it is winter here ranging from 69F-72F. I will not be incubating or heating the room so a little patience will be required. Pic of the containers and jars thus far:

Dec 17th-
Well sorry to keep everyone waiting. Life has been busy. I had to move my grow space to the basement and ended up having a hard time keeping the temps up above 65F. So everything slowed right down. I eventually did get the heat figured out and at that point the quarts started to take right off. But my pp5 containers stayed slow. I started to worry that they had stalled which lead me to give the lids a little 1/4" turn in an effort to get some GE going. That did the trick and they have been slowly advancing. Temps are back up to a solid 70F-74F so we shouldn't have any more hiccups due to cold 
Quarts have been done for about 4 days now. I was originally going to try to wait to spawn them until I had cased the PP5 containers but now I think I'm gonna prep some sub tomorrow and spawn em Thursday. Hopefully the PP5 are done by then, but they are moving slow. I guess in all fairness, had I spawned the quarts when they were finished the tubs would have a good start on their run by this point.

Dec 24th- 3 of the V tek containers are fully colonized with a 4th close behind. 5 and 6 are not far off either, looks like in spite of some stalling I should get them all to the finish line Got some casing done the first round in the microwave, so by this time tomorrow I should have 3 V tek containers in a SGFC tomorrow. Might post pics at that time.

Tub spawned 3 days ago looks pretty good too! I think that had I spawned it when it was ready it would be done by now. Debating on casing it or not. Usually I like to case as my climate is dry, but no case is the community standard for the moment. Guess I got a day or two to consider.

I do feel that the speed to fruiting conditions is going to come out as a draw as both teks will reach fruiting conditions at approximately the same time.
Dec 26th-
3 of the pp5 containers are cased and in the SGFC. Just a few grains left to go on 2 of the other containers and am going to case and place the 4th container tonight.

Bulk tub is looking pretty good IMO and am thinking about casing him tonight. Gonna toss him in fruiting conditions tomorrow regardless.

Jan 4th-
Got some good pins popping up in one of the PP5's and some nice primordia showing in a few others. Really wants to work near the edges, hopefully the middle fills in.

Monotub is looking pretty good in spite of the casing getting a little overcolonized Some nice little pins starting to pop up all over.

Jan 7th- Things are starting to move along. The 4 of the PP5 containers have pins now and 1 of them has pins that are maturing quite quick.

Meanwhile bulk is chugging along. . .

Jan 8th-
Well the pp5 containers are not coming in uniform at all. I got one with a couple fruits with torn veils still pushing up pins. Not sure if this would be the time to bottom water or not, sub is still fair sized, so I guess I should wait till it shrinks. Fruits look pretty healthy tho so I'm thinking that rehydrating my perlite was a good move. All of the containers are showing pins as well, so some good pics should be on the way. For now this will have to suffice.

Jan 9th-
Gonna need to take those guys.

My mediocre culture is starting to produce pins in some of the later containers, They are a little tough to see but will be more apparent soon. 
As for my "mid level" monotub with its mediocre genetics, its coming along ok, I suppose Probably need to harvest right while I at work, so I will probably end up with a sporesplosin 

Jan 10th-
Harvested bulk tub

A modest harvest

Some pins coming in

Jan 13th-
Tub is resting after its ordeal. The mycelium has recovered and taken back over any divots with a vengence. Just misted the hell outta it.
My pp5 containers are moving along a bit better with the constant waterings. I have now bottom watered 2 of them three times, but I'm worried the pins are still gonna abort in the centre. Its like a sponge, feels like I just can't give it enough 
My "second flush" coming in. Lots of aborts in there from previous. I hope the new pinset does not abort on me 

Jan 14th-
PP5 containers are moving into their second flush. Got a few nice shots. This is looking a little better.

All the aborts in are getting overtaken by the myc in the first one. Couple last flush straggelers in the other one.


Finally, the second flush is coming in for the bulk tub. Quick shot of one of the clusters.

Stay tuned
Edited by Pastywhyte (01/15/14 06:11 PM)
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budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 87
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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Excellent idea! Will be following this.
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nn-IlliniSpiralDMT
Maniac


Registered: 07/19/12
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: budkatz]
#19219829 - 12/02/13 10:22 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Finally...
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Third Stone From The Sun
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: budkatz]
#19219833 - 12/02/13 10:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is an awesome plan. I've been curious about the v-tek but I've been hesitant to try it simply because I love my glass jars so damn much! I can't argue with results though, if the v-tek blows bulk out of the water, I may need to switch.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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I did this a couple times. I already know the results.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I did this a couple times. I already know the results.

Well don't spoil the ending, I got front row seats and I want to see the whole show
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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I won't, for reasons I've gone over a few times in past threads 
Do the grain casings and mini-substrates in identical fruiting conditions (two SGFCs.) This is going to give your best, most objective results.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Do the grain casings and mini-substrates in identical fruiting conditions (two SGFCs.) This is going to give your best, most objective results.
Noted. I guess one thing that I was looking at was ease of use/maintenence. I usually grow in monos due to the set and forget nature suiting my lifestyle, and one of the factors that I was looking for was how much of a factor any neglect would play. But if yield was the only thing I was looking for, then dual SGFC's would be important. I got some time to think about it for sure. Though I am willing to listen to what the community as a whole would like to see.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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That's fair, mono vs grain casing would be a good test too. It just would not be a straight comparison.
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,338
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 14 hours, 55 minutes
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Interesting...
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budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 87
Last seen: 1 day, 1 hour
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One question about your experiment - I assume you are using rye berries in pp5,is that correct? Would using RGS be more in line with Violet's tek? Not sure it will really change the outcome, just curious.
BTW, RGS is somewhat out of season around here and most stores seem to have removed it from the shelves, maybe a feed store still has some in stock somewhere. Haven't looked too hard, rye berries and WBS are easy to find and work fine for me.
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RogerRabbit
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Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: budkatz]
#19220726 - 12/03/13 05:31 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
V-Tek meets Bulk
I thought I had been around here long enough to know the nomenclature.
What the hell is V-tek? I've never heard of that one. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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SynKyd
ctrl-alt-delite



Registered: 09/27/13
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V=Violet
-------------------- New inclusive poop emojis from Apple!
   
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: What the hell is V-tek? I've never heard of that one. RR
V-TEK
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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RogerRabbit
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: SynKyd] 3
#19220741 - 12/03/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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You gotta be shitting me. We don't grow mushrooms on Violet. We grow mushrooms on substrates. This crap about naming stuff after oneself is going to stop. We have 50K members. We can't have 50K teks named after each person, instead of what the procedure is actually doing.
Perhaps the original poster can title it something along the lines of what is actually being done. For example, pf tek vs bulk, or tray culture vs fruiting in bags, monotub vs tray on shelf, etc.
Cased grains in a plastic container is no different than cased grains in a glass container. That's not a new tek unless one considers a blue car needs a different set of driving instructions than a grey or red car.  RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,338
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
Last seen: 14 hours, 55 minutes
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I thought vtek was a Honda engine
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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I thought they made phones......
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,338
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: V-Tek meets Bulk [Re: PussyFart] 1
#19220762 - 12/03/13 05:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Guess they dabble in a little of this and that
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,811
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
budkatz said: One question about your experiment - I assume you are using rye berries in pp5,is that correct? Would using RGS be more in line with Violet's tek? Not sure it will really change the outcome, just curious.
According to the tek, it will work with most grains including rye. For a head to head test as long as grain type on both sides is consistent, I should be able to do a fair comparison. I didn't use RGS for the very reasons you listed, out of season, expense, etc. Maybe down the road I will do another test where I try the RGS inoculated with the same culture and see how those results stack up against these.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: rhaps the original poster can title it something along the lines of what is actually being done. For example, pf tek vs bulk, or tray culture vs fruiting in bags, monotub vs tray on shelf, etc.
Cased grains in a plastic container is no different than cased grains in a glass container. That's not a new tek unless one considers a blue car needs a different set of driving instructions than a grey or red car.  RR
Done. I have still kept a reference to the teks name as that is part of the draw to the thread, but the title is more self explanatory now.
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 2,538
Loc: Third Stone From The Sun
Last seen: 2 months, 17 days
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Actually RR, in the original thread talking about the "v-tek" violet made it a point that v-tek was a temporary name until we thought of a better name for it, but we all adopted the name v-tek since we couldn't think of something more catchy. I agree, the name should explain the process not the person, but it isn't violet's fault.
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