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Offlinethephilosofist
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19209939 - 11/30/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I have issues with basing anything existential in my life on faith. Perhaps that will change, as I am relatively young. Seeing hyperdimensional objects, and meeting incarnations of god and/or plato's world of forms, and/or thought feedback loops interpreted as characters defined by personality and behavioral traits have send me through chaotic paradigm shifts until I just sort of floated inbetween them all. These were off numerous high dosages of different combinations of ethneogens (and other substances).

I had to forcefully rebuild myself, and I have chosen the path of the scientific method to understand the world around me. I don't think it is limiting, and I personally am under the impression that we have the capability to comprehend the structure of the universe, concepts of life and death, and other religious and faith-based issues that have arrested humanity's attention.

I still can't ever know, and I would rather simply take the trips with a grain of salt than take them literally. I will say that trips increase my aesthetic sense and appreciation of patterns in the world around me. It allows me to see how everything relates, how geometry is inherently similar in EVERYTHING (DMT hyperspace object = mind's 'storage bank' of visual information?). I don't see this as being spiritual in my definition, but I saw the definition earlier in the thread regarding spirituality as "seeing meaning in everything", so according to that I suppose that my trips are indeed spiritual...

Is pattern recognition spiritual? Not for me, I choose to believe it is a part of my mental abilities and relish in the drug's ability to enhance it.

Even while under the impression of feeling the awe-inspiring visions of The Source, OBE's, and hyperspace/the astral plane, I personally interpret these as mental representations of how the mind works. The cynical side of me sees Shamanism as a very practical and effective manner of exploring one's psyche. The side of me that has broken through obviously must suspend logic and rationality in order to retain any real memory of the experience itself...and that is why I have a hard time putting faith in it. However, I can't deny what I felt. The duality is confusing at times, lol.

I have hope that we can locate the source of the mind, and understand just how this universe is pieced together. I do not believe we will ever completely solve the mystery. I have to admit there is a karmic balance of knowledge acquisition...the more answers we have, the more immensely befuddling our world becomes...and I like that.

Our mental faculties are more powerful than we can comprehend at the moment...IMHO...and I personally intend to explore both subjective and objective experience, tying the two together. I believe it is partially because of my trips that I now have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. Am I getting less out of it, if I want to scientifically interpret what I see and feel under intense psychological amplification?


TL;DR: Simply speaking for myself: I'm happier with my trips (and the aftermath) now that I just let it go and see what I see, but I take them with a grain of salt.


Edited by thephilosofist (11/30/13 08:40 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19210579 - 11/30/13 11:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The cynical side of me sees Shamanism as a very practical and effective manner of exploring one's psyche.




Well, if true that would be unfortunate, as exploring one's psyche doesn't take all that much compared to what, IME, shamanism can accomplish (in the real world). But it's one of those things impossible to explain to those who don't already know about it.

Quote:

I have hope that we can locate the source of the mind, and understand just how this universe is pieced together. I do not believe we will ever completely solve the mystery. I have to admit there is a karmic balance of knowledge acquisition...the more answers we have, the more immensely befuddling our world becomes...and I like that.




Likely you can do all that for yourself.  But there's no inherent mystery, and there are no "answers".  This stuff (the stuff of what we are made) will show itself to you gradually.  At least it has for me.  Duality ends eventually. :thumbup:

Final point though, I don't know who this "we" you keep talking about is supposed to be. Your own experience is more than sufficient for whatever you need to do.

:peace:PS


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OfflineMadMind
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: 4Skins]
    #19211166 - 12/01/13 03:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

4Skins said:
Question for anyone willing to answer:

Do you think people who are religious/spiritual/believers in something will have a "better" trip. As opposed to a non-believer/non spiritual.

By "better," I mean, do you think it can help them as a person in the long run such as finding their selves and inner peace and whatnot?

All of my friends and I that trip are non-believers. Does that make our trips any less meaningful?




Good question, a great one infact. In my opinion, people who don't believe are less susceptible to bad trips, but they are also unable to experience the great peaceful part of it as well. It's more of a drug to get fucked up on to them. Spirit route is much better in my opinion and you are more likely to gain something out of it.

Also I would like to inform that just because someone is non-religious doesn't mean they are not spiritual. Hidden in the crowd are some believers :smile:


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: MadMind]
    #19211283 - 12/01/13 05:47 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't say that every non-believer who partakes in the psychedelic experience does so just to take drugs and get fucked up.

Some folk just appreciate the beauty of nature for what it is as we know it from a scientific standpoint, rather than what it might be.


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: Into The Woods]
    #19211288 - 12/01/13 05:51 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

And It doesn't mean that either is wrong. The only thing that feels wrong is the people who DO take psychedelics for granted, just to get fucked up.


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Offlinethephilosofist
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19211587 - 12/01/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Likely you can do all that for yourself.  But there's no inherent mystery, and there are no "answers".  This stuff (the stuff of what we are made) will show itself to you gradually.  At least it has for me.  Duality ends eventually. :thumbup:

Final point though, I don't know who this "we" you keep talking about is supposed to be. Your own experience is more than sufficient for whatever you need to do.

:peace:PS









I would argue that hallucinations, according to evidence I have now, all stem from one's own mind. Meaning that everything I hallucinate either IS my mind, or a product of it. That definitely makes me a materialist, and I fully admit my bias in that sense. It doesn't make it 'not real' to me. I just can't see it as anything other than my own instincts and internal human wisdom giving me knowledge. Any dieties I have seen, the gnostic God that presented itself to me on LSD (seemed very real, just like my DMT experiences)...It's not 'separate from me", I don't believe it is an "other" although I may interpret it as such. I fully admit this is stemming from my own belief system I have built up. Thus I find it the psychedelic experience to be a deeper exploration of the 'psyche' than simple meditation a few hours a day (although I believe with years of meditation you could reach DMT-esque states). The psyche to me covers all the human unconscious behaviors, subconscious behaviors, and essentially reconstructing the M.C Escher palace that is the chamber of the mind. That includes basic knowledge of existence, and basic concepts of self-awareness.

As for your second point, I agree, I will simply speak for myself. I seek answers that I can empirically verify, or replicate experimentally. Replicating DMT experiences and showing how different individuals share experiences is only a starting point for what I am looking for, IMHO.

The inherent mystery for me is understanding the structure of the universe, deciphering the building blocks. I would eventually like to understand the basis of the universe enough to the point that we could become Creators in our own right.

I choose to apply myself to learning knowledge that provides me with external, physical use (technology, etc.) rather than shaping my emotional/intuitive mind at this point, although I am always evolving and growing. I recall specifically when the creator of Onnit technologies came onto Joe Rogan's podcast and discussed how his ayahuasca experience gave him a peek into his psyche and he came out much more successfully business-wise. That's really what I'm looking for in my trips...not that business is necessarily a be-all-end-all goal. To combine successful ventures (creative or otherwise) with furthered health and happiness in the aftermath of a psychedelic trip is what I'm looking for. I think that empirically verified knowledge integrated with psychological amplification is much more potent for creating 'ideas that change the world' than revelations by Alan Watts or Terence McKenna (francis and crick, in particular --> was not a spiritual revelation).

That being said, if you are happy listening to Alan Watts and understanding the deep existential patterns that exist ("the earth 'peoples'! just as flowers pollenate and humans have babies -- excellent speech on systemic complexity from a more philosophical/entertaining rather than scientific aspect), then more power to you. I don't see this as 'woo' or anything, I just don't find it to further my own personal goals in life. I am happy with my place in the universe, whether we are divine beings that were created with intent or simply a cosmic fluke.

I do not wish to ATTACK spirituality. I simply disregard the word in my own life, this post is a claim that a materialist's (formerly very spiritual/religious -- due to psychs) trip is equally as valid of a psychedelic experience as someone who explores religious themes through their trips.


Edited by thephilosofist (12/01/13 12:09 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19212456 - 12/01/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Well yes, hallucinations - just like dreams - stem from your own mind.  But there's far more to the experience than hallucinations. :shrug:

Quote:

The inherent mystery for me is understanding the structure of the universe, deciphering the building blocks. I would eventually like to understand the basis of the universe enough to the point that we could become Creators in our own right.




Science has far more application to all of this than you appear to realize.  How do you propose to do this?  And once again, who is this "we" of which you speak?  Everybody?  Anybody? Somebody?

Quote:

Thus I find it the psychedelic experience to be a deeper exploration of the 'psyche' than simple meditation a few hours a day (although I believe with years of meditation you could reach DMT-esque states).




So called "simple meditation" goes far deeper than you apparently realize. You can't possibly project what it accomplishes from within the discursive mind. :thumbup:

I am interested in replication of trip effects, so I'd ask you to expound on that.  Strictly from a nonspiritual POV of course.

:peace:PS


Edited by PrimalSoup (12/01/13 01:01 PM)


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OfflineMadMind
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19212498 - 12/01/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thephilosofist said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Likely you can do all that for yourself.  But there's no inherent mystery, and there are no "answers".  This stuff (the stuff of what we are made) will show itself to you gradually.  At least it has for me.  Duality ends eventually. :thumbup:

Final point though, I don't know who this "we" you keep talking about is supposed to be. Your own experience is more than sufficient for whatever you need to do.

:peace:PS









I would argue that hallucinations, according to evidence I have now, all stem from one's own mind. Meaning that everything I hallucinate either IS my mind, or a product of it. That definitely makes me a materialist, and I fully admit my bias in that sense. It doesn't make it 'not real' to me. I just can't see it as anything other than my own instincts and internal human wisdom giving me knowledge. Any dieties I have seen, the gnostic God that presented itself to me on LSD (seemed very real, just like my DMT experiences)...It's not 'separate from me", I don't believe it is an "other" although I may interpret it as such. I fully admit this is stemming from my own belief system I have built up. Thus I find it the psychedelic experience to be a deeper exploration of the 'psyche' than simple meditation a few hours a day (although I believe with years of meditation you could reach DMT-esque states). The psyche to me covers all the human unconscious behaviors, subconscious behaviors, and essentially reconstructing the M.C Escher palace that is the chamber of the mind. That includes basic knowledge of existence, and basic concepts of self-awareness.

As for your second point, I agree, I will simply speak for myself. I seek answers that I can empirically verify, or replicate experimentally. Replicating DMT experiences and showing how different individuals share experiences is only a starting point for what I am looking for, IMHO.

The inherent mystery for me is understanding the structure of the universe, deciphering the building blocks. I would eventually like to understand the basis of the universe enough to the point that we could become Creators in our own right.

I choose to apply myself to learning knowledge that provides me with external, physical use (technology, etc.) rather than shaping my emotional/intuitive mind at this point, although I am always evolving and growing. I recall specifically when the creator of Onnit technologies came onto Joe Rogan's podcast and discussed how his ayahuasca experience gave him a peek into his psyche and he came out much more successfully business-wise. That's really what I'm looking for in my trips...not that business is necessarily a be-all-end-all goal. To combine successful ventures (creative or otherwise) with furthered health and happiness in the aftermath of a psychedelic trip is what I'm looking for. I think that empirically verified knowledge integrated with psychological amplification is much more potent for creating 'ideas that change the world' than revelations by Alan Watts or Terence McKenna (francis and crick, in particular --> was not a spiritual revelation).

That being said, if you are happy listening to Alan Watts and understanding the deep existential patterns that exist ("the earth 'peoples'! just as flowers pollenate and humans have babies -- excellent speech on systemic complexity from a more philosophical/entertaining rather than scientific aspect), then more power to you. I don't see this as 'woo' or anything, I just don't find it to further my own personal goals in life. I am happy with my place in the universe, whether we are divine beings that were created with intent or simply a cosmic fluke.

I do not wish to ATTACK spirituality. I simply disregard the word in my own life, this post is a claim that a materialist's (formerly very spiritual/religious -- due to psychs) trip is equally as valid of a psychedelic experience as someone who explores religious themes through their trips.




That's interesting the way you put it. I would like to say that these drugs do causes hallucinations that are not necessarily related to spirituality. The goal of these drugs is for you to in fact search your own mind to find the spirituality within yourself. So lets say you see a deity, that doesn't mean that it's actually there but that shows you something about yourself and can help you further understand why you think a certain way. Everything is subjective anyway.. I don't think it's right to generalize people let alone drugs in which trips vary so greatly.

Here I'll give an example: One time I was on like 8g of shrooms and I was seeing demons and I got scared. I noticed a recurring theme though, is that I always looked in their eyes which scared me the most. I brought that information back with me into the real world and applied it. I figured out why I can't look at peoples faces when I talk to them stemmed from an issue I had as a child where I saw demons in a movie/etc. and I got scared when I looked into their eyes. Now as a whole I am more social and easygoing on the soul.

One would interpret a demon as a 'bad mojo' or something such as that, but I used it as a tool to figure out myself more thoroughly.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: MadMind]
    #19212555 - 12/01/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Here I'll give an example: One time I was on like 8g of shrooms and I was seeing demons and I got scared. I noticed a recurring theme though, is that I always looked in their eyes which scared me the most. I brought that information back with me into the real world and applied it. I figured out why I can't look at peoples faces when I talk to them stemmed from an issue I had as a child where I saw demons in a movie/etc. and I got scared when I looked into their eyes. Now as a whole I am more social and easygoing on the soul.




Shrooms are extremely useful for autobiographical recall like that, followed by integration.  I've dredged some of the most amazing stuff from my past - all the way to early childhood - and with awareness comes the ability to put your internal demons to rest. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Offlinethephilosofist
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19212752 - 12/01/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Well yes, hallucinations - just like dreams - stem from your own mind.  But there's far more to the experience than hallucinations. :shrug:

Quote:

The inherent mystery for me is understanding the structure of the universe, deciphering the building blocks. I would eventually like to understand the basis of the universe enough to the point that we could become Creators in our own right.




Science has far more application to all of this than you appear to realize.  How do you propose to do this?  And once again, who is this "we" of which you speak?  Everybody?  Anybody? Somebody?

Quote:

Thus I find it the psychedelic experience to be a deeper exploration of the 'psyche' than simple meditation a few hours a day (although I believe with years of meditation you could reach DMT-esque states).




So called "simple meditation" goes far deeper than you apparently realize. You can't possibly project what it accomplishes from within the discursive mind. :thumbup:

I am interested in replication of trip effects, so I'd ask you to expound on that.  Strictly from a nonspiritual POV of course.

:peace:PS





lol alright alright, I was specifically trying to say "I" for everything but I guess you caught me on one of them. the intent is still there though, I do wish to only speak for myself and my psychedelic goals.

I agree the experience is much more than the hallucinations. Which is why I post on these forums, I've learned about fractal geometry (really my inspiration for learning about systems and how they interact with each other, the parts = the whole, etc.) and my own inner peace, as well as the mind's capacity to generate entire dimensions or explanations for the universe on it's own. Whether or not the explanations are true or not, I find the fact that they happen to be utterly amazing. I find that the only feeling that really lingers from the trips, though, are the inner peace (or inner destruction) and the notion that the world is bigger than I can ever know in my lifetime.

Clearly, I don't understand how to create a universe from scratch. I'm a young 20 something with only basic knowledge in physics and chemistry. I am currently studying sustainable development and biomimicry, specifically integrating these into electrical and possibly electrochemical systems. I do wish to acquire and build upon empirically verified information though, such as the basic formation of particles. I mean, chemistry and physics in themselves are trying to figure this out. It is the basis of all science to explore the world around us and figure out how it works, this organic system we have found ourselves in (I use WE because WE are all breathing the same air, we are all living on the Earth). WIth the internet, and all published studies at my disposal, I would like to form a community of individuals with similar experiences who understand truly how great the mystery is, indulging in scientific exploration, as well as improving their body and mind through insight and experience.

I believe the DMT replication has already been tested, with Straussman's "evidence." People all claimed to have very similar experiences, although I don't believe his test was truly valid (a non-consistent and biased group of participants). I don't think, however, that the effects on the visual field are well understood, despite them being consistent between chemicals.

I think another study could be done, especially with brain scanning technology being more developed and neuroscience taking a massive renaissance-esque leap the last 20 years.

What makes these chemicals psychedelic? How do they affect the brain? What part of the brain is it stimulating? What visions/feelings are produced from that part of the brain being stimulated? Is it even the brain at all? Specifically: Why and how are these chemicals related to feelings of intense revelation and inner peace/turmoil?

In order to go on this path, I require people who don't care about the philosophy behind psychedelics. Peace, understand, and appreciation, are byproducts of psychedelics that are subjectively beneficial. I would like to figure out ways that psychedelics can be OBJECTIVELY beneficial. Which is why I bring up Francis and Crick and their discovery: it was aided by LSD, but the real meat of the discovery was formed by their years of education and experimentation.

Does this help clarify myself a bit?

I refuse to call spirituality invalid, but I simply don't use it. Inner peace is not spiritual for me. It is simply the understanding and awareness of where I am and what I am doing, as well as the understanding that I am both an individual and a product of an active process. I am both a noun and a verb.

If you call that spiritual, I guess we just differ on terminology. I associate spirituality with faith-based thinking, and I do not wish to delve into that manner of thinking.


Edited by thephilosofist (12/01/13 02:26 PM)


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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19213569 - 12/01/13 04:28 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So I think the reason PS keeps pointing out you saying We, might be because the information you're talking about knowing, is already know. Yes, science proves it to a certain empirical degree but they're not discovering it for the first time, it's always been known and only YOU can clue yourself in on what's going on.
Just because it's know by me doesn't mean it's know by We, ya know?


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Offlinethephilosofist
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: Galidor4]
    #19213977 - 12/01/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Galidor4 said:Yes, science proves it to a certain empirical degree but they're not discovering it for the first time




I think we fundamentally disagree on what a 'discovery' is. I believe (<-- faith based, /facepalm) instinct and intuition only go so far. Maybe I'll be proven wrong though. I try to keep an open mind to these sorts of things, especially theories about inherited knowledge through generations of evolution and breeding. In fact, I'm going to go look up some studies on instinct right now. Very interesting topic.

I simply wished to present my perspective, if you don't agree, that's OK...we both have our own paths....


Edited by thephilosofist (12/01/13 06:32 PM)


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OfflineJesus Cristo
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19214134 - 12/01/13 06:32 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

shit i have 666 posts.
here's 667
:phew:


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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19214565 - 12/01/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I refuse to call spirituality invalid, but I simply don't use it. Inner peace is not spiritual for me. It is simply the understanding and awareness of where I am and what I am doing, as well as the understanding that I am both an individual and a product of an active process. I am both a noun and a verb.

If you call that spiritual, I guess we just differ on terminology. I associate spirituality with faith-based thinking, and I do not wish to delve into that manner of thinking.




I don't understand where you're coming from with this.  I don't call anything spiritual, all I said was that's a label that some people apply to certain experiences.  It doesn't matter what you call it.  The OP was the one who asked about differences between "spiritual" and "recreational" (supposedly non-spiritual) users and whether there experiences differ.  Early on I said this:




Quote:

Do you think people who are religious/spiritual/believers in something will have a "better" trip. As opposed to a non-believer/non spiritual.




No.  Absolutely not.  A full face melting trip overcomes any belief system no matter how poorly formed, and substitutes a brand new experiential religious framework.  Which you then have to figure out. :lol:

Quote:

Of course people going into the psychedelic experience with a spiritual approach will get more out of the experience than people using psyches with a recreational approach.




Be careful what you wish for.




Quote:


I believe the DMT replication has already been tested, with Straussman's "evidence." People all claimed to have very similar experiences, although I don't believe his test was truly valid (a non-consistent and biased group of participants). I don't think, however, that the effects on the visual field are well understood, despite them being consistent between chemicals.




Oh, no offense, I don't think I made myself clear.  I'm not talking about replicating the drug effects on the visual field.  Anybody who trips a lot can do that.  I'm talking about replicating the drug effects on reality, a much more interesting subject, which I've been posting about here as often as I can figure out something useful to say. :lol:

:peace:PS


Edited by PrimalSoup (12/01/13 08:28 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: Galidor4]
    #19214615 - 12/01/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Galidor4 said:
So I think the reason PS keeps pointing out you saying We, might be because the information you're talking about knowing, is already know. Yes, science proves it to a certain empirical degree but they're not discovering it for the first time, it's always been known and only YOU can clue yourself in on what's going on.
Just because it's know by me doesn't mean it's know by We, ya know?




Yeah, and I sure don't want that sketchy guy who lives down the street to become a "Creator in his own right" when I'm not watching.  That would totally suck.  I want this knowledge to stay with those who figure it out, those are the only ones I even remotely trust to handle shit properly.  The rest can stay where they've always been. :thumbup:
 
:peace:PS


Edited by PrimalSoup (12/01/13 09:58 PM)


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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: Jesus Cristo]
    #19214704 - 12/01/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus Cristo said:
shit i have 666 posts.
here's 667
:phew:



Uh oh...

You are dooooomed


--------------------
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Seem to get lost and harder to find.
When I am alone I am inclined,
If I find a pebble in sand,
To think that it fell from my hand..."



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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19214931 - 12/01/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Clearly, I don't understand how to create a universe from scratch. I'm a young 20 something with only basic knowledge in physics and chemistry. I am currently studying sustainable development and biomimicry, specifically integrating these into electrical and possibly electrochemical systems. I do wish to acquire and build upon empirically verified information though, such as the basic formation of particles. I mean, chemistry and physics in themselves are trying to figure this out. It is the basis of all science to explore the world around us and figure out how it works, this organic system we have found ourselves in (I use WE because WE are all breathing the same air, we are all living on the Earth). WIth the internet, and all published studies at my disposal, I would like to form a community of individuals with similar experiences who understand truly how great the mystery is, indulging in scientific exploration, as well as improving their body and mind through insight and experience.




Hey, more power to ya then. :raisemyglass: 

You can indeed appreciate the "mystery" as you call it  (as a matter of fact you can penetrate the "mystery" directly, and I highly recommend it) without resorting to hackneyed religious arguments and limitations.  But at some point what you end up doing is creating an experiential "religion" that depends on no assumptions or beliefs.  You'll find some aspects of that process scattered online at forums like this.  I'm planning to share my experimental research into such matters (at least the physical manifestations of that research) eventually, and I hope to be able to construct tabletop devices that respond to trip manipulation much like the natural world does.  I expect they'll function as quantum computers.

Rest assured that these matters ARE of great interest to at least a few people currently. :thumbup:

And that's about all for now.

:peace:PS


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Offlinelemintus
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19215067 - 12/01/13 10:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I go back and forth from atheism and paganism. Frustrating to be semi-spiritual and not believe at the same time.


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Offlinethephilosofist
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #19217961 - 12/02/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Hey, more power to ya then. :raisemyglass: 

You can indeed appreciate the "mystery" as you call it  (as a matter of fact you can penetrate the "mystery" directly, and I highly recommend it)
:peace:PS




Can you explain what you mean by 'penetrating the mystery'? I've had several experiences on DMT ranging from 50-130 mg, with several different intentions (or none at all): either talking to the entities (they give me vague descriptions of what I should be doing, why I am here, chaos vs structure, how love is the metaphorical basis of every chemical and physical bond that make up reality, etc...typical psychedelic manifestations, just more vivid), exploring the realm visually (VERY interesting, stories and people appear in front of me, beings of light almost like shining constellations interacting, as well as 'multidimensional' objects) and seeing if I could move through it, or ignoring the entities and attempting to maintain rational thought throughout the experience (harder to do, but manageable). I began to recognize these entities as representations of myself or reactions to my motivations/intents after the fifth trip or so.

My next grand psychedelic adventure will be ayahuasca or peyote, I hope I can gain more insight from these experiences.

This is one of the reasons I wish my friends in chemistry to surpass Shulgin, although I like him more than any of the psychedelic culture figureheads because he simply explained the experiences as how he perceived them, along with chemical explanations, rather than as Absolute Truth.

I believe synchronicity and the 'natural world reacting to you' to be simply delusions, but I fully admit I could be wrong. It is another disbelief of mine I try to shake, because I very much wish the mind to have more power than I believe. Specifically, I don't believe in ESP and the ability for the mind to affect things through the air without direct physical contact. if that's what you are talking about.

I've interacted with plants and animals (including humans) differently on psychedelics...but I don't think that necessarily means that nature is any different after taking psychedelics due to your direct observance of it, I believe it is your mindstate and ability to notice patterns you wouldn't normally be able to. This causes you to act differently than you would while sober, which thus produces uncommon stimuli, which in turn causes recipient of stimuli to react uncommonly as well. For example, when I take acid, women are more attracted to me because of my openness and general 'glowing' ambience. It's not as if LSD is directly causing the radiation of 'fuck me' pheremones from my armpits (or maybe it is, but that's a separate point), it's my change in behavior based on the reaction that causes other individuals to react differently. Or, for a more direct' mind affecting world' idea, my direct thoughts of 'fuck me girl' are not making her want to fuck me any more than she would normally. Meaning it is a secondary reaction, not a primary reaction by nature...I think I may have entirely missed your point now that I think about it, lol. Correct me if I'm wrong...or leave it be :wink: lol we've been going on a while now.

I would be VERY VERY interested to hear your research or see something to guide my own thoughts. My mind is open to being changed. And perhaps it may, after a few more years of substance use (or perhaps sobriety, whatever is healthiest for me).


Edited by thephilosofist (12/02/13 04:35 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Spiritual trippers vs. Non-spiritual trippers (believers vs. non-believers) [Re: thephilosofist]
    #19218118 - 12/02/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I mean you only think it's a mystery.  Once you see all the way into it it's no longer a mystery.  No faith required, no belief, only the desire to go there and see it first hand, as it were, from the inside.

No, I can't tell you how to do that. If I could tell you how to do that it wouldn't be a mystery. :thumbup:

I've no experience with DMT but based on numerous comments from people who do, although it manifests weirdness in spades, it may be too short-lived to actually get much of a handle on what happens.  When I looked at the Nexus I was surprised to see how almost every single trip-modality that was described was something I'd already encountered over the course of about a thousand mushroom trips. :thumbup:  So I can't say yes, can't say no, but to study some of this IME you need to create stable environments for tripping over the course of several hours.

I have strong evidence of anomalous physics occurring during around and within trips.  Other people have shared similar occurrences.  Synchronicity, for instance, is not a delusion, it's definitely real.  (Or if it's a delusion, somehow it manages to affect completely sober people in the company of people who are tripping.  My reading of the odds for that indicate that the effects are quite real, even if inexplicable.)  It's very common to deny these things.  I did that myself for many years, even as I was actively searching for more of the kinds of things I'd already experienced occasionally.  One wants very badly to be wrong about this, as it tears a huge rift in ordinary understanding.  Unfortunately - or fortunately, depending - the phenomena are all too real, and not capable of being dismissed.  It becomes knowledge that you just have to live with after a while. :shrug:

Unfortunately, it takes more physics to explain than most people ever want to acquire.  My most fruitful discussions about some of the effects I've logged so far have taken place with fellow physicists... :wink:

Einstein didn't much like the spooky "action at a distance" that his equations supported either.  There's a definite generational thing in physics.  Current theories are coming much closer to realities that I've seen. Some of those theories are my own theories as well.  For a starter, read through this fairly accessible explication of emergent intelligence:
 
It's speculation, but I encountered the reality first and was already developing math to explain it when that popped up. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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