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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Proper pasteurization in a bucket
#19216599 - 12/02/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So recently there's been a lot of talk about modifying the bucket tek to make it more reliable. I decided to put some of your ideas to the test today. I got out my trusty 5 gallon bucket, a half brick of coir, a quart of verm, and a handful of gypsum. I hand shredded the coir and put all the ingredients in my bucket and put 2 quarts of water on the stove. Instead of heating the water to boiling, I heated it until it reached 195 degrees. Then I pored it into my bucket, stired it up really good, and took the temperature which was 175. I waited until it got down to about 170 and put the lid on. In an hour I'll check the temps again and cool it off by putting ziplock bags full of ice into the bucket. If the temps remain above 140 degrees for at least an hour, I would call this proper pasteurization. I know there will be debate, but I just wanted to get some facts together and assess the validity of the modified bucket tek. See you guys in about 45 minutes.
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cgsjames
I eat dumbbells



Registered: 05/18/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216738 - 12/02/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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............Bump.......... Really would like to know too. And would this tec be prone to becoming wet and soggy?
-------------------- What you eat don't make me shit and who you fuck don't make me come.
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Skinty
TOP SECRET


Registered: 07/04/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: cgsjames]
#19216760 - 12/02/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I tried something fairly similar. Added about 3/4 of the total volume of water at 190 then half hour later mixed and added the rest of the water also at 190. Left that for about 90 minutes then but the bucket outside to cool. First flush coming along nicely....be interesting to see if there are any visible contams before 2nd flush
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Skinty]
#19216785 - 12/02/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Skinty said: I tried something fairly similar. Added about 3/4 of the total volume of water at 190 then half hour later mixed and added the rest of the water also at 190. Left that for about 90 minutes then but the bucket outside to cool. First flush coming along nicely....be interesting to see if there are any visible contams before 2nd flush 
This is a great idea. So the final temps after an hour are 138! I probably shouldn't have left the bucket on my cold concrete garage floor I'm gonna cool it off with some ice in a bag and call it good enough, but only since it's coir. This clearly has some potential though. If I kept it better insulated, it would have stayed at proper pasteurization temperatures for over an hour. I think our goal should be to fix the bucket tek to the point that we could use it for horse poop. Based on my results, I am very optimistic. In the future, I may use a bucket within a bucket, or submerge the bucket in a hot water bath. In conclusion, this attempt was partially successful, but it gives me hope for the bucket tek.
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Skinty
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216793 - 12/02/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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My bucket is super insulated i.e. holds heat really well whilst outside is cold enough that will still cool pretty quick when out there. < Bit of a contradiction there but I was pretty optimistic with how it went
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216799 - 12/02/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Also, if I had been doing a full batch I am confident that it would have remained above proper pasteurization temperatures. I plan on doing pan cyans in the very near future and I will be using hpoo, I will use this method of pasteurizaton as I am very confident in it's reliability as of now.
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hgmstl
Dough boy



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216801 - 12/02/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wouldn't the initial temps be the main problem with the bucket tek? Temps above pasteurization? Also what is your plan for rapid cooling after the hour?
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Skinty]
#19216803 - 12/02/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Skinty said: My bucket is super insulated i.e. holds heat really well whilst outside is cold enough that will still cool pretty quick when out there. < Bit of a contradiction there but I was pretty optimistic with how it went 
I'm sorry, what are you saying?
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Skinty
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: hgmstl]
#19216807 - 12/02/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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^^ that's why we are introducing water that is a lower temp to boiling. My rapid cooling plan is to stick it outside but what the heck do what you like
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Skinty
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Registered: 07/04/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216810 - 12/02/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:
Skinty said: My bucket is super insulated i.e. holds heat really well whilst outside is cold enough that will still cool pretty quick when out there. < Bit of a contradiction there but I was pretty optimistic with how it went 
I'm sorry, what are you saying?
Sorry my post did not make much sense!
I was responding to Quote:
I probably shouldn't have left the bucket on my cold concrete garage floor
...
Ignore my past comment I was basically trying to say to use a well insulated (plastic) bucket and put in a cold place when done. Pretty obvious really
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hgmstl
Dough boy



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Skinty]
#19216811 - 12/02/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Would 195 to 170 water partially sterilize a little bit?
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216818 - 12/02/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said: So recently there's been a lot of talk about modifying the bucket tek to make it more reliable.
Actually this sort of talk happened a few months ago, and a few months before that, and so on.
You can get away with crappy pasteurization because it is coir. In which case, the bucket tek works fine. Hell, even sterilized coir spawned in open air works.
But you can't judge your bucket tek by coir and any kind of attempt at this using hpoo (or even just additives like coffee) is going to result in quick failure.
So be careful what you call "proper" pasteurizing if your only basis for judgement is coir and verm.
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hgmstl
Dough boy



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: hgmstl]
#19216820 - 12/02/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not trying to attack. Just trying to understand. Since 195 to like 165 are above pasteurization. Sorry not being super accurate but you understand.
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: hgmstl] 1
#19216825 - 12/02/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Partial sterilization occurs when the core temp of a substrate that has been evenly heated reaches about 170F.
Partial sterilization is not the sterilizing of parts of the substrate, but the microbial activity as a whole.
Bucket tek does not heat evenly so there is no way to judge your core temp, nor will it necessarily be the highest temp in the bucket while the clock is ticking.
When properly pasteurizing, you can heat the outer edges all the way to boiling temps and, as long as the core does not exceed 170F, you will still be pasteurizing.
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Sgt. Pepper



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Skinty]
#19216827 - 12/02/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Skinty said: ^^ that's why we are introducing water that is a lower temp to boiling. My rapid cooling plan is to stick it outside but what the heck do what you like 
Oh gotcha! I'm sorry, I just didn't understand what you were saying. That may work, but part of the reason why people say the bucket tek doesn't work is that the temps stay too high too long when boiling water is added. If you managed to get the perfect temperature of the water so that the contents of the bucket got below pasteurization temperatures with the addition of the cold from outside then I see no reason why it wouldn't work. I only suggest putting something cold inside the bucket so that it will cool off rapidly when you want it too so you won't risk over pasteurization, but like I said, if you find the perfect temperature to be able to put it outside, then by all means do it, we need more experimentation on the subject for sure.
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hgmstl
Dough boy



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19216831 - 12/02/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for clarifying.
-------------------- Yo yo yo
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216833 - 12/02/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said: we need more experimentation on the subject for sure.
Here's a huge thread.
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: hgmstl]
#19216842 - 12/02/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hgmstl said: Not trying to attack. Just trying to understand. Since 195 to like 165 are above pasteurization. Sorry not being super accurate but you understand.
Yes, I understand. The temps fell from 195 to 175 instantly when I added the water. And I know that 175 is above proper pasteurization, but I stirred it and it dropped 5 or 10 degrees pretty much immediately. So yeah, it was a little hot, but for a very short period of time which I am hoping is negligible.
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19216847 - 12/02/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said: we need more experimentation on the subject for sure.
Here's a huge thread.
Thank you for the link, always good to have more info. That thread is where I got several ideas such as shredding the coir.
Edited by Sgt. Pepper (12/02/13 11:42 AM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216858 - 12/02/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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All that info explaining how and why bucket tek will never properly pasteurize something and you just say thanks for the link? 
Here'e another.
These are full of the kinds of responses that are going to appear here too.
Bucket tek will never work as proper pasteurization.
Coir doesn't need proper pasteurization to work.
So you can't call something proper pasteurization when it isn't. Esp when you are judging by coir and verm. 
Want to impress people? Get hpoo to work with a bucket. Then you'll impress a lot of folk.
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19216880 - 12/02/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: All that info explaining how and why bucket tek will never properly pasteurize something and you just say thanks for the link? 
Here'e another.
These are full of the kinds of responses that are going to appear here too.
Bucket tek will never work as proper pasteurization.
Coir doesn't need proper pasteurization to work.
So you can't call something proper pasteurization when it isn't. Esp when you are judging by coir and verm. 
Want to impress people? Get hpoo to work with a bucket. Then you'll impress a lot of folk.
Fair enough, you are the tc and I do respect your opinion. I'm not trying to be that noob that tries to reinvent the pf tek or something, I understand why the traditional bucket tek is not proper pasteurization, and I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I am just trying to make pasteurization (proper or not) in a bucket more reliable. Seriously, I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, I'm just posting my findings.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216892 - 12/02/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm not taking offense or trying to squash your ideas 
I'm saying that this has been gone over again and again.
Coir is the worst judge for pasteurization. It will work even when prepared like shit or just straight up PC'd for 90 minutes at 15PSI.
I was trying to save you the time and effort, and clear up some common misconceptions this thread has been operating under
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 2,538
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19216927 - 12/02/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I'm not taking offense or trying to squash your ideas 
I'm saying that this has been gone over again and again.
Coir is the worst judge for pasteurization. It will work even when prepared like shit or just straight up PC'd for 90 minutes at 15PSI.
I was trying to save you the time and effort, and clear up some common misconceptions this thread has been operating under 
Thank you for that, I agree, coir is a bad judge but it's all I have at the moment and it allowed me to see the temperatures which is what I was really looking for. You know how on mythbusters they do a small scale preliminary test? Think of this as that. This test gave me a starting point and let me see for myself how possible it was. I'll do a couple more test runs with coir, and if I can keep it within proper pasteurization temps for an hour and a half, I will go full scale and try it with hpoo. Am I expecting success? Probably not, but shit is cheap and I see no reason not to experiment. Again, I have lots of respect for you and I doubt pasteurization in a bucket will ever be as successful as pasteurization in jars, but I like to experiment.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19216953 - 12/02/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey man, more power to ya.
You will impress a thousand cultivators if you can consistently make hpoo work with a simple bucket tek.
I will give a friendly warning though..a few too many improperly pasteurized hpoo tubs is gonna turn your stomach pretty hard
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Sgt. Pepper



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19217080 - 12/02/13 12:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: Hey man, more power to ya.
You will impress a thousand cultivators if you can consistently make hpoo work with a simple bucket tek.
I will give a friendly warning though..a few too many improperly pasteurized hpoo tubs is gonna turn your stomach pretty hard 
I'm certainly prepared to see some scary contams and that's why I think I won't actually add any spawn until I have a method down. I think what I'll do is have a control consisting of jar pasteurized hpoo. Then I'll have modified bucket pasteurized hpoo in a separate container. I'll keep them both uncovered under identical conditions and see which contaminates first. Something along those lines. Wish me luck, I'm sure I'll be seeing plenty of trich and cobweb the next few months.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19217087 - 12/02/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No matter how you use the bucket, the outer edge never seems to hold temperature for the right amount of time.
The core may stay at 140-160 for 1 hour, but the outer edges drop below 140 within 30 minutes it seems. I've done experiments with different insulation and I just can't seem to get the outer edge to hold temperature long enough.
My understanding of pasteurization requires the entire substrate to be at least pasteurization temperature for at least 1 hour. If it doesn't, then the stuff we want to kill will not be dead.
It's okay for the outer region to go above as long as the center does not, but the outer has to meet the minimum.
Like FH said, CVG is not a good indicator of proper pasteurization success. But, proper temperature monitoring is. The low temperature of the outer regions can't be ignored.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19217099 - 12/02/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said: I'm certainly prepared to see some scary contams
You probably won't see it at first...but you will smell it 
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Like FH said, CVG is not a good indicator of proper pasteurization success. But, proper temperature monitoring is. The low temperature of the outer regions can't be ignored.
I mean, the temps are pretty uneven from the start too. Evenly heating the substrate from the outside in makes a big difference.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19217143 - 12/02/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree. I just wanted to point out the often ignored low temps of the outer region when using the bucket.
I have some ideas on how to make it work, but it's not cost effective at my production level. I've pretty much given up on it.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Sgt. Pepper



Registered: 06/19/13
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: SpitballJedi]
#19217150 - 12/02/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: No matter how you use the bucket, the outer edge never seems to hold temperature for the right amount of time.
The core may stay at 140-160 for 1 hour, but the outer edges drop below 140 within 30 minutes it seems. I've done experiments with different insulation and I just can't seem to get the outer edge to hold temperature long enough.
My understanding of pasteurization requires the entire substrate to be at least pasteurization temperature for at least 1 hour. If it doesn't, then the stuff we want to kill will not be dead.
It's okay for the outer region to go above as long as the center does not, but the outer has to meet the minimum.
Like FH said, CVG is not a good indicator of proper pasteurization success. But, proper temperature monitoring is. The low temperature of the outer regions can't be ignored.
This is great information. Maybe submerging the bucket in a hot water bath to keep it at temperature similar to that person who pasteurized in a kitty litter bucket. The difference would be that I would dump the hot water into the bucket and keep it at temperature by putting it in a hot water bath instead of using the hot water bath to get it to temperature. But thank you, that was incredibly helpful.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19217175 - 12/02/13 12:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sgt. Pepper said: keep it at temperature by putting it in a hot water bath
At what temp, 160F? You'll need to heat the water to keep that temp, unless you want to constantly be heating and pouring more hot water in.
Then your temps are going to be going all over the place too.
At that point, it's much simpler and way more effective to just pasteurize properly in a hot water bath using jars or a large bag.
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Sgt. Pepper



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19217241 - 12/02/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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True, my houses sink gets to 150 degrees so if I were to fill up the sink with hot water it may be able to help resist the change in temps. I'll play with it. You guys have been immensely helpful on the subject and it's clear I have a contam filled road ahead of me, but hopefully I can overcome it and revolutionize the pasteurization process. I'll expect the worst but hope for the best.
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JohnnieYen
Okay



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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
#19217390 - 12/02/13 01:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've been experimenting with hot water bath with a bucket. I use canning pots and small bungee cords to keep the bucket submerged. I also use portable burners
I start with hot water so my coir temps are near 140. Then put the bucket in the boiling water in the canning pot.
I have to mix the substrate every 10-15 min until the whole sub is heated evenly. You have to because the top 2-3" heat slower than the rest. Keep moving my digi thermometer to make sure everything is above 140.
Once you hit those temps is when I set my timer for 90 min. I also keep the lid of the bucket loosley on.
Just experimenting but things look good so far.
-------------------- [center
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
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Re: Proper pasteurization in a bucket [Re: JohnnieYen]
#19217454 - 12/02/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's coir. Of course it works
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