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Deviate
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Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method
#19215745 - 12/02/13 02:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/giveup/Give%20Up-cleaned%20up%20by%20Roshan%20Naik-48k.mp3
I saw himm talked about in another thread and decided to re-investigate his teachings. When I listened to this talk, I became very interested in what he had to say about spiritual practices and spiritual experiences. I found myself being lead in this direction already, from my study of the Eastern Orthodox Christian fathers who advise rejecting anything that stems from the imagination and Buddhist teachings on emptiness. Ramana Maharshi also mentions this in his teachings although he did endorse many different traditional spiritual techniques.
Basically the idea is that we want to be at peace with ourselves and we are trying to achieve that state through some mental effort. But peace consists only in lack of mental effort. It cannot be achieved through effort. Nor can we try to give up effort, because that is effort, nor can we try not to try because that also is effort. So we are stuck in this impossible situation and this is essentially where every single person in the world who is following any religion or spiritual path is stuck. In fact, all you arrogant people on the shroomery who think you are so much more spiritually advanced than those "fundamentalist Christians" you whine about, you are actually stuck in the exact same place (sorry, had to throw that in). You may think you are more advanced because you have a far more advanced set of concepts with which you relate to reality, but you are still being trapped by thoughts and concepts just like a mentally retarded person. In fact a mentally retarded person could in a sense be closer to the truth than you because they havent created such a complex web of concepts. Often the more advanced concepts are, the more difficult it is to untangle them.
Any time there is a goal, whether that goal is ultimate reality, enlightenment, knowledge of God, bliss, etc, that goal does not exist because the goal is something you are imagining (reality is what's already there) and the very act of imagining that goal prevents you from seeing clrearly what is already there.
So this means the only purpose that all religions and spiritual paths truly serve is to gradually drive you insane by the fact that they do not work. Note I am not saying that prayer and meditation techniques do not have effects, they absolutely do, it is possible to have spiritual experiences, it is possible to talk to God, etc, the thing is they never lead to the goal as promised. They never, ever lead to liberation, enlightenment, gnoses, salvation, knowledge of God, peace, bliss, etc. All they do is make you circle around some imaginary goal until you eventually go crazy and give up, thus finally settling into the peace of the present moment. That is how they work.
Edited by Deviate (12/02/13 02:49 AM)
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19215857 - 12/02/13 04:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I couldn't do the 3 hour talk but i listened to a few minutes, you brought up the most important message though, effortlessness
I find that ultimately this is a path of understanding, of wisdom, rather than the contrivance of effort
If you truly understand that absolutely nothing you think of can bring you to yourself then that is great, it's enough
I like these verses by Ramana Maharshi that deal with this topic
The fruit of action passes But action leaves behind Seed of further action Leading to an endless ocean of action Not at all to liberation
Better than viewing Him as other Indeed the noblest attitude of all, Is the hold Him as the 'I' within The very 'I'
You yourself impose limitations on your true nature of infinite being, and then weep that you are but a finite creature. Then you take up this or that spiritual practice to transcend the non- existent limitations. But if your spiritual practice itself assumes the existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transcend them? Hence I say know that you are really the infinite pure being, the Self. You are always that Self and nothing but that Self.
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Edited by Chronic7 (12/02/13 04:29 AM)
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19215932 - 12/02/13 05:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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imagine peace
john lennon said it well
I appreciate everything I have, then I got peace and accept what I got and see forgive people etc.
love is all you need, peace is love
help others, see the good in people and everything etc. don't limit your peace to yourself, appreciate nature and love/respect others and the planet
don't worry, that's peace
when you feel love, nothing can take that away from you
houseplants,pets,guitar,nature everyday , that is peace too
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19215995 - 12/02/13 05:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So this means the only purpose that all religions and spiritual paths truly serve is to gradually drive you insane by the fact that they do not work.
True imo, the down side being that by doing that it may create more human suffering than it's worth. Not everyone makes it through the maze of religious belief to the other side. In fact almost no one. But maybe there's no way around that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19216236 - 12/02/13 07:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is said that only one in a million pursue spiritual practice to completion. Those really aren't very good odds. That's why it can suck so much being a spiritual seeker sometimes. You struggle and you struggle and you struggle and every other spiritual seeker you know deals with the same struggle and none of you ever seem to get enlightenment. This is what leads some people to become skeptics and conclude that enlightenment is a myth. The problem with the idea that enlightenment is a myth for me, is that what does that leave us with? My stupid, scattered delusional thoughts being real then? That certainly can't be. I know that my mind free from thought is more accurate than my mind when it is clouded by a maze of thoughts which I can clearly see are quite delusional. I just cannot accept a life based on imaginary goals created by my delusional thoughts. Of course, in an ironic way that is exactly what I am doing in pursuing enlightenment, but being aware that I am doing it, I am simply not able to pursue some other goal, like telling myself something like "if you get married and have a kid, then you will be happy". I know that isn't true. If I can't be happy now, today, then it is stupid to assume that fullfilling some self created goal is going to change that in a real, enduring way.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19216380 - 12/02/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hear you loud and clear. We certainly are between a rock and a hard place. According to Ernest Becker (Denial of Death) we absolutely must have a belief system of some sort to buffer certain truths about existence that psychologically we are not capable of handling without extreme anxiety. Our beliefs about this and that act as a buffer or cushion or shield and get us out of bed each day to face the shit we seem willing to go through just to be alive. (rock and hard place).
The type of beliefs you hold determine how hard or easy and how beneficial or detrimental our existence becomes for ourselves and those we interact with on any level.
I personally have no quarrel with religion as long as it doesn't negatively affect me or others. This is often not the case. There are very few that are religiously benign, imo due to anxieties around their ability to believe what they claim to believe. Many people cannot carry on with a belief unless they can quell any others who do not share that belief. It creates too much anxiety provoking cognitive dissonance for them to be able to continue with their belief system. So they try to force or coerce others into believing or otherwise do away with them. This imo is evil but they cannot help it due to their anxiety.
And so it goes. Ultimately I believe we cannot know what life is all about. This creates tons of anxiety in me. Much of my posting here is to get others to believe as I do or affirm my beliefs and make me feel accepted into some sort of group that I can believe are "right" and so reduce my anxiety. However there is another part of me that wants to face the unknown head on. It's, imo, the really healthy part of my personality or self but it is also the weakest part of that personality structure. It rarely can function without anxiety and is buffeted by that anxiety to the point that it often wants out of existence completely. This makes me very sad indeed. More than I can express in words.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19216385 - 12/02/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: This is what leads some people to become skeptics and conclude that enlightenment is a myth. The problem with the idea that enlightenment is a myth for me, is that what does that leave us with?
it can be good to have the idea of enlightenment at first, like you said to keep you focused on becoming free from the maze of thoughts, but ultimately in the search for truth we must be left with nothing, as everything is ultimately a myth, including the idea of enlightenment, the term itself is associated with somebody becoming enlightened when there is nobody there to become anything in the first place, hence it all being a myth
if we stop touching things & leave it all alone then we are touched by what can never leave us
the spiritual path can seem like a right bitch to the mind, but that's also why its infinitely amazing, because the mind can't get it, we are what we're seeking its a curse in the sense that our identities have been trained to get things we want, so when we want what we can't ever get, it's frustrating yet its an absolute gift in the sense that you are it, and you are appearing as a human that can realize it, how much greater could it get!?
by the way, when you said eastern orthodox christians that advise 'rejecting anything from imagination' can you recommend anything to read? im aware that what i just asked is a contradiction in itself
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19216483 - 12/02/13 09:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: And so it goes. Ultimately I believe we cannot know what life is all about. This creates tons of anxiety in me. Much of my posting here is to get others to believe as I do or affirm my beliefs and make me feel accepted into some sort of group that I can believe are "right" and so reduce my anxiety. However there is another part of me that wants to face the unknown head on. It's, imo, the really healthy part of my personality or self but it is also the weakest part of that personality structure. It rarely can function without anxiety and is buffeted by that anxiety to the point that it often wants out of existence completely. This makes me very sad indeed. More than I can express in words.
ultimately it is unknowable, but you can know that you are that unknown the ultimate is unknowable which means deep inside me i am that unknowableness i can know my body, thoughts, feelings etc, but i am unknown!
sorry if im pointing this out & it creates anxiety, i've experienced myself how viewing the universe as unknown can cause an existential panic, but when i see myself as the unknown i find it releases anxiety, when it's internalized it's different
it's really being totally honest with yourself, what i am is fully here yet totally unknown, it can never be defined, yet it is, i am philosophers & sages have called it self knowledge but its not knowing anything, it's a bit like a regression into the unknown, into yourself
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19216513 - 12/02/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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That doesn't work the same way for me as it does for you. That's something I've learned over time. Everyone deals with stuff differently and one size does not fit all. I'm very glad it works so well for you however.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19216572 - 12/02/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: That doesn't work the same way for me
You said there is a part of you that wants to face the unknown headon, so it's not an impossibility, especially when you are the unknown
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19216740 - 12/02/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Frankly I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I just tried to explain to you that everyone does this in their own way. And also frankly I don't know and don't know that you know what facing the unknown even means. It might well be an impossibility.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19216912 - 12/02/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all i meant is that we are the unknown so facing it is facing oneself, i thought id made that clear but maybe not
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19217055 - 12/02/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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ok I've been doing that all along.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19217704 - 12/02/13 03:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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U.G. Krishnamurti (as I understand him) believed that "enlightenment" is a myth because it is predicated on the notion that you are "here" and enlightenment is "there." That to attain enlightenment, you must travel from A to B. But according to Krishnamurti, there is no "here" vs. "there." That construct is a fiction. A myth. There is only "here."
Institutional religion (with a few notable exceptions) assumes a "here" and a "there." Jesus died for our sins, we are told, to gain us access to "there" -- Godliness, understanding, Heaven, whatever. The mythology differs according to Christian sect.
If it works for you, Deviate, all power to you, buddy.
As long as you and I do as little harm as is humanly possible in the world, all is okay.
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19218357 - 12/02/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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there is only Now :-)
attaining enlightenment is not possible, but you can know yourself a bit knowing yourself fully isnt possible either it seems, there can never be put thoughts on it, thoughts are imperfect
but I feel I know myself well now
nobody can tell you who you are, except you can ask yourself
I often see books trying to tell people who they are, that I dont understand but maybe if ready people may remember, just like if you get "the power of now" i.e. if you get the book at the right time, you may know from the title what you need to know :-)
working towards enlightenment is not possible I think, because that is the brain wanting something instead meditate and release all those wantings
the self knows what it wants to change
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: lessismore]
#19218527 - 12/02/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mio said: working towards enlightenment is not possible I think, because that is the brain wanting something instead meditate and release all those wantings
There are many traps awaiting the seeker, but the greatest of these, I think, is attachment to the notion that we are not, in the current moment, in the here/now, already perfect as we are.
U.G. Krishnamurti made the point, as did many before him.
It's an extremely fine and subtle point.
We are perfect as we are. Even in our cravings. Even in our lusts. Even in our ignorance.
So, there is a complete surrender -- a total abandonment -- of the desire to be other than what we already are, and with this surrender comes a peace and serenity beyond words.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19218812 - 12/02/13 07:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/giveup/Give%20Up-cleaned%20up%20by%20Roshan%20Naik-48k.mp3
I saw himm talked about in another thread and decided to re-investigate his teachings. When I listened to this talk, I became very interested in what he had to say about spiritual practices and spiritual experiences. I found myself being lead in this direction already, from my study of the Eastern Orthodox Christian fathers who advise rejecting anything that stems from the imagination and Buddhist teachings on emptiness. Ramana Maharshi also mentions this in his teachings although he did endorse many different traditional spiritual techniques.
Basically the idea is that we want to be at peace with ourselves and we are trying to achieve that state through some mental effort. But peace consists only in lack of mental effort. It cannot be achieved through effort. Nor can we try to give up effort, because that is effort, nor can we try not to try because that also is effort. So we are stuck in this impossible situation and this is essentially where every single person in the world who is following any religion or spiritual path is stuck. In fact, all you arrogant people on the shroomery who think you are so much more spiritually advanced than those "fundamentalist Christians" you whine about, you are actually stuck in the exact same place (sorry, had to throw that in). You may think you are more advanced because you have a far more advanced set of concepts with which you relate to reality, but you are still being trapped by thoughts and concepts just like a mentally retarded person. In fact a mentally retarded person could in a sense be closer to the truth than you because they havent created such a complex web of concepts. Often the more advanced concepts are, the more difficult it is to untangle them.
Any time there is a goal, whether that goal is ultimate reality, enlightenment, knowledge of God, bliss, etc, that goal does not exist because the goal is something you are imagining (reality is what's already there) and the very act of imagining that goal prevents you from seeing clrearly what is already there.
So this means the only purpose that all religions and spiritual paths truly serve is to gradually drive you insane by the fact that they do not work. Note I am not saying that prayer and meditation techniques do not have effects, they absolutely do, it is possible to have spiritual experiences, it is possible to talk to God, etc, the thing is they never lead to the goal as promised. They never, ever lead to liberation, enlightenment, gnoses, salvation, knowledge of God, peace, bliss, etc. All they do is make you circle around some imaginary goal until you eventually go crazy and give up, thus finally settling into the peace of the present moment. That is how they work.
This reminds me of a snippet of dialogue from Ramana and a disciple (one of many along similar lines):
D.: Have you reached the goal? M.: The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will also disappear. The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself.
As I mentioned in a separate thread, my own experience of sadhana has been consistent with what you describe above, with such preliminaries as meditation serving not so much as a directional effort toward a goal (e.g., asamprajnata samadhi) but rather as a preparatory to insight of a fundamentally different nature. I don't know that all paths can be characterized in that manner, however: I'm not sure self inquiry, as envisaged by Ramana, wouldn't be a direct path to insight, and Patanjali's own view, both as to the yoga of dispassion and as to Kriya yoga (or to bhakti as an alternative to either of these) was that the method itself led to liberation, a state fundamentally different from the general conscious state of the ordinary person in which the purusha, a self existent substance, has been disentangled from prakriti altogether (so much so that one of the classical commentators postulated that a jivanmukti would need to deposit a seed of karma in order to return to ordinary experience).
-------------------- Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of living, it doesn't matter Ours is not a caravan of despair. Come even if you have broken your vow a thousand times, Come, yet again, come, come
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19219348 - 12/02/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I hear you loud and clear. We certainly are between a rock and a hard place. According to Ernest Becker (Denial of Death) we absolutely must have a belief system of some sort to buffer certain truths about existence that psychologically we are not capable of handling without extreme anxiety. Our beliefs about this and that act as a buffer or cushion or shield and get us out of bed each day to face the shit we seem willing to go through just to be alive. (rock and hard place).
I agree, we filter reality through our belief system because we can't handle it. The idea behind spirituality is however, that reality is not inherently bad, so this filtering we are constantly doing to protect ourself is a result of us having accepted a view of reality that is out of accordance with actual reality rather than reality itself being something horrible that we absolutely must shield ourselves from.
U.G. Kishnamurti talks in his lecture about how society imposes on us the idea that we are not alright as we are, that we must do or achieve something special (whether its a career, marriage or enlightenment) before we can feel at peace with ourselves and this creates a tremendous thought current that draws us away from our own nature.
Quote:
And so it goes. Ultimately I believe we cannot know what life is all about. This creates tons of anxiety in me. Much of my posting here is to get others to believe as I do or affirm my beliefs and make me feel accepted into some sort of group that I can believe are "right" and so reduce my anxiety. However there is another part of me that wants to face the unknown head on. It's, imo, the really healthy part of my personality or self but it is also the weakest part of that personality structure. It rarely can function without anxiety and is buffeted by that anxiety to the point that it often wants out of existence completely. This makes me very sad indeed. More than I can express in words.
Just reading this made me feel a very deep sadness. I can relate to exactly what you are saying. I feel this very strongly too. I feel like within me there is a very great force and yet somehow I am too afraid to let this force take control and so I endlessly circle around it.
Edited by Deviate (12/02/13 08:45 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19219414 - 12/02/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No matter how much we may disagree on there are some very core issues we do agree on. I so often forget that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19219417 - 12/02/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
Deviate said: This is what leads some people to become skeptics and conclude that enlightenment is a myth. The problem with the idea that enlightenment is a myth for me, is that what does that leave us with?
it can be good to have the idea of enlightenment at first, like you said to keep you focused on becoming free from the maze of thoughts, but ultimately in the search for truth we must be left with nothing, as everything is ultimately a myth, including the idea of enlightenment, the term itself is associated with somebody becoming enlightened when there is nobody there to become anything in the first place, hence it all being a myth
if we stop touching things & leave it all alone then we are touched by what can never leave us
the spiritual path can seem like a right bitch to the mind, but that's also why its infinitely amazing, because the mind can't get it, we are what we're seeking its a curse in the sense that our identities have been trained to get things we want, so when we want what we can't ever get, it's frustrating yet its an absolute gift in the sense that you are it, and you are appearing as a human that can realize it, how much greater could it get!?
by the way, when you said eastern orthodox christians that advise 'rejecting anything from imagination' can you recommend anything to read? im aware that what i just asked is a contradiction in itself 
The spiritual path is amazing but sometimes it is downright frustrating and depressing.
Regarding Orthodox readings there the Philokalia which is a collection of works on the contemplative life dating from the 4th to 15th centuries and I will also recommend this blog http://livingorthodoxfaith.blogspot.com/ especially if you prefer something more modern.
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Stromrider
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19219516 - 12/02/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Wow... I very much enjoyed reading this thread. Especially deviate and Icelanders post. That's all I wanted to add. Carry on
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19220290 - 12/03/13 12:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: I couldn't do the 3 hour talk but i listened to a few minutes, you brought up the most important message though, effortlessness
I find that ultimately this is a path of understanding, of wisdom, rather than the contrivance of effort
If you truly understand that absolutely nothing you think of can bring you to yourself then that is great, it's enough
I like these verses by Ramana Maharshi that deal with this topic
The fruit of action passes But action leaves behind Seed of further action Leading to an endless ocean of action Not at all to liberation
Better than viewing Him as other Indeed the noblest attitude of all, Is the hold Him as the 'I' within The very 'I'
You yourself impose limitations on your true nature of infinite being, and then weep that you are but a finite creature. Then you take up this or that spiritual practice to transcend the non- existent limitations. But if your spiritual practice itself assumes the existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transcend them? Hence I say know that you are really the infinite pure being, the Self. You are always that Self and nothing but that Self.
You know I was thinking more about Ramana Maharshi's teaching some more in light of this and I don't know whether this is right or not but what I concluded was that although Ramana Maharhsi and U.G. Krishnamurti have seemingly contradictory teachings, they might actually compliment each other if understood in the right sense.
Ramana Maharshi was a traditionalist in the sense that he thought highly of various meditation techniques, especially bhakti whereas U.G. was totally opposed to worship of a god of any kind. So how do these two opposing views work together? Well, Ramana Maharshi said that self-inquiry was the direct method, but that it was not suitable for everyone, so he recommended bhakti in the meantime. That is why I picked up bhakti actually. But the problem then becomes as you practice bhakti you gradually become accustomed to the idea of realization as a goal for the future, even though Ramana Maharshi said this was not true. So the role of U.G. is to step in and undermine your logic, ruthlessly showing you how all your concepts and ideas are wrong and must go.
I believe there is some hope that self-inquiry offers, it destroys the mind from the inside out rather than all the other indirect techniques which never lead to the goal and cannot, even Maharshi says this that they are just aids that can never bring one to the goal. However, that is assuming that one practices self-inquiry correctly with due sincerity and perseverance. That is a big if.
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19220793 - 12/03/13 06:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: You know I was thinking more about Ramana Maharshi's teaching some more in light of this and I don't know whether this is right or not but what I concluded was that although Ramana Maharhsi and U.G. Krishnamurti have seemingly contradictory teachings, they might actually compliment each other if understood in the right sense.Ramana Maharshi was a traditionalist in the sense that he thought highly of various meditation techniques, especially bhakti whereas U.G. was totally opposed to worship of a god of any kind. So how do these two opposing views work together? Well, Ramana Maharshi said that self-inquiry was the direct method, but that it was not suitable for everyone, so he recommended bhakti in the meantime. That is why I picked up bhakti actually. But the problem then becomes as you practice bhakti you gradually become accustomed to the idea of realization as a goal for the future, even though Ramana Maharshi said this was not true. So the role of U.G. is to step in and undermine your logic, ruthlessly showing you how all your concepts and ideas are wrong and must go.
If understood then everything is complimentary & without contradiction as it's all one, only thought sees contradiction, and all paths lead to the same goal, yourself
Ramana often said self-inquiry was possible for everyone & universally applicable as all are the Self, strictly speaking it's not even really a path so when he saw someone that needed their path he would tell them to continue as they are, really every one is self-inquiring as everything is the Self, it's just whether your doing it in a roundabout way or direct
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19220822 - 12/03/13 06:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am wondering if perhaps Ramana Maharshi was at a higher level of consciousness than Krishnamurti.
Anyway, I feel as though I now understand self-inqiry a lot better. I used to practice it all wrong. I had some very powerful enlightening experiences with it, and then after that, I kept on practicing it with the goal of attaining another such experience and then I would stop practicing and check myself to see where I was. That is all wrong. One must practice self inquiry without stopping for any reason. It does not matter if you feel orgasmic bliss pouring from your heart center, you must not be the least bit impressed or excited or awed or afraid and simply go right on with your inquiry. You must avoid the pitfalls of ecstasy and yoga nidra. Rmana Maharshi says that without a proper guide being present, most people get stuck somewhere in these stages, believing they have attained liberation when in actuality it is merely a temporarily quelling of thought. The inquiry must continue until you can no longer make effort, as the Self takes over. So one must always be inquiring into the Self, you cannot stop to rest or check on your progress. Of course it is ok to rest if you are beginner but eventually the inquiry must become continuous.
This means you have to want liberation far more than you want any material thing. You must be completely devoted to the spiritual path. This is why Ramana Maharshi recommended Bhakti, by worshiping the self as God, you learn to love the Self, which makes it possible to devote yourself to searching for it. If you do not love God/Self, your mind will continue to fixate on that which you do love and distract any attempts at inquiry.
Edited by Deviate (12/03/13 06:48 AM)
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19220992 - 12/03/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have nothing to add to that except
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19221077 - 12/03/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: You must avoid the pitfalls of ecstasy and yoga nidra.
A fine and delicate point. Most people probably won't have the slightest fuck of an idea what you're pointing to there, but the thought is very enshrined in the mystical literature.
Enlightenment (or perhaps better, "cosmic consciousness") is not about "feeling good." "Feeling good" is purely a biological rush of certain chemicals.
In the laboratory, they hook up the brains of rats and stimulate certain sections, and -- voila -- the rats convulse in what appear to be spasms of ecstasy. Most would agree, however, that the rats are not experiencing spiritual "enlightenment."
The test, I think, of one's state of consciousness is how one deals with -- relates to -- the horrible times in life.
Everyone is cool with the good times. The ecstatic times. The "Rush."
Few are really "good" with the horrible times, though.
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19221436 - 12/03/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There's a different between experiencing tastes of bliss or love, and realizing yourself as that, becoming the embodiment of it, every cell of your being radiating it
Once you get past your desire for bliss you become a beacon of bliss for others rather than continuing to seek the experience for yourself, first you want bliss, then you can't get rid of it!
I'm not saying i'm permanently the embodiment of infinite bliss, but I've experienced the evolution of wanting it, then tasting it, then becoming it, it's my life's purpose to take that as far as I can, even though 'as far as I can' is just an idea appearing within that
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19221779 - 12/03/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nice thread, got tons of insights. Might as well add something from Ramana or Papaji, not sure who said that:
Self is eternal mantra. It goes on effortlessly whether you are aware or not.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: HeartAndMind]
#19226532 - 12/04/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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U.G. Krishnamurti was wrong about a lot of things. After researching him some more, it looks to me as though he was in some state of consciousness where he was free from thought but he had not proceeded all the way to God-realization like Ramana Maharshi and this explains the lack of love in his "teaching" if you can call it that. If he actually believed in the principles he was promoting, he would have had no reason to talk so much at all. He was really quite arrogant and conceited in my opinion. He acted as though he was superior to all the other gurus and yet if you study their teachings, you will see they are not different from his. For example, Buddha said he gained absolutely nothing from enlightenment. So who is he to judge how others have behaved after enlightenment? They were simply expressing themselves, its not his place to judge. Of course he is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.
There is a saying in Zen that at first mountains are mountains and river are rivers. Then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers no longer rives. But in the end, mountains are mountains again and rivers are rivers again.
This expresses the spiritual search. First you are just a kid, you accept the world as it is. Then you develop all these ideas about how the world is and one day you realize they are not real, that you have been living in an illusion and even the physical world isnt as you thought. THen after you become enlightened, things simply are as they always were again. The mountains are mountains again and the rivers are rivers again.
Ramana Maharshi expressed a similar concept when he said that the individual soul was not real, because the world the soul and God were all in fact mere manifestations of the single Self. But then he qualified this statement by saying that the world, the soul and God were all real, because they were all real appearances within the Self. So in one sense, your life in Maya is illusion (and this is what UG kept going on about) but in another sense, it is real, because you experience it. This is why ramana Maharshi dismissed debates over real vs illusion as pointless. Its completely a matter of perspective.
Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 12:49 PM)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19226819 - 12/04/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: ...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.
I doubt that he "hated" the gurus. I think he hated their approach and their tactics. And with good reason.
The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness. Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you. You should heed my word.").
The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.
No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.) An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have. And the list goes on and on.
At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.
Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.
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circastes
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19226898 - 12/04/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: circastes]
#19226993 - 12/04/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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circastes said: Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.
Well, I happen to like my sages to be fully human. Fully frail and vulnerable, just like the rest of us.
Alan Watts, for example, had nicotine and alcohol dependency issues. Did it / does it make him any less of a sage? I think not. There are many, many other examples of very wise people who had "issues."
Some like the "Happy Smiley Face" image of what it means to have clear consciousness.
And that's fine. For them.
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19228197 - 12/04/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The guru is within
Dunno who said that  Dont look up to anyone, know thyself
Maybe it was buddha The realizations will come if knowing oneself
To know oneself often means to know what one is not And stopping doing what brings unhappiness (lesrn from mistakes) Do what you love always I respect maharishi and a few others though, he speaks the truth and only truth it seems
Enlightenment must be actions, serving others before oneself i.e Difference between knowing the path and walking it they say
Edited by lessismore (12/04/13 06:57 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19228256 - 12/04/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: ...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.
I doubt that he "hated" the gurus. I think he hated their approach and their tactics. And with good reason.
The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness. Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you. You should heed my word.").
The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.
No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.) An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have. And the list goes on and on.
At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.
Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.
I'm afraid that the issue goes beyond woman priests and elite gurus. U.G essentially laughed off ALL religion and spirituality as meaningless and profitless claiming he reached enlightenment in spite of his spiritual efforts rather than because of them and he never recommended any spiritual techniques to anyone as far as I know, essentially denying that one could follow any type of path to enlightenment because of what I explained in the OP, all paths and techniques advise movement but enlightenment is lack of movement and lack of movement cannot be reached through movement. He showed no respect toward the so called great teachers like Buddha and Jesus and criticized their actions and there also seemed to be a great lack of love and compassion in his teaching.
This in my opinion is simply wrong. Ramana Maharshi says that everyone's ego is gradually being worn down by life itself but it happens MUCH faster in ANYONE who has does spiritual practice. So if all you did was meditate a half hour a day (but you have to be sincere of course) or say a few prayers every day and go to church on sunday, while you may not attain enlightenment, or notice any striking results, according to Ramana Maharshi, you have still done great benefit to your soul. U.G. on the other hand would deny that you had accomplished anything.
I have to side with Ramana, spiritual practices are appropriate when enlightenment cannot be realized immediately.
It goes back to the analogy I gave about the mountains and rivers. Yes, U.G. is correct that enlightenment is ever present and you cant really do anything to attain it but Ramana Maharshi is also correct when he says that although enlightenment is ever present and you need not expend any mental energy, so long as you feel compelled to expend mental energy, you might as well direct that energy toward enlightenment because if you do that, enlightenment will happen much sooner than if you go off looking for money or sex or whatever happens to strike your fancy. This is what U.G. denies and this is where he is dead wrong in my opinion. After enlightenment, the whole spiritual path may be seen as illusion but it is also real simply by the fact that you experienced it, it was your real experience.
Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 07:08 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19228748 - 12/04/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then why agree that all religions drive you crazy or whatever you said back a ways. You seem to be bouncing around?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19229354 - 12/04/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Then why agree that all religions drive you crazy or whatever you said back a ways. You seem to be bouncing around?
I stand by that statement. As I said in my last post, you cannot attain enlightenment through mental effort but at the same time, enlightenment will happen much sooner in those who actively seek it. What happens is that all the seeking gradually erodes your ego making you more "susceptible" to enlightenment. As I said before, not even U.G says that things like meditation and prayer do not have effects. On the contrary, he admits they have powerful effects. He just maintains that these effects are not and do not bring about enlightenment. I can relate to him on this from my own experiences. For example, I have had rivers of living water flow from my heart after consuming Holy Communion at Mass just like Jesus speaks about in the Bible. I have seen angels and again with Holy Communion, I have had encounters with what I can only call the Cosmic Christ that were indescribably divine and blissful. I mean it was like the whole physical world including my body dissolved into the being of Jesus Christ, which consisted of a pure energy whose nature was love-bliss and it was better than any drug experience. Needless to say, after such experiences I would always think "ah, finally. My spiritual quest is finally coming to its completion. Enlightenment is just around the corner now". But then, whether the bliss lasted for a few minutes, a few hours or a few days, it would ALWAYS dissipate again and I would be back to my normal, scattered, apathetic, depressed self. Eventually it dawned on me that as incredible as these experiences were, they were all still in the realm of karma. I had not transcended anything at all. All I had done was induce certain spiritual experiences through the use of my spiritual practices.
This is exactly the problem that the ancient Indian yogis were confronted with. You see they had developed all kinds of meditation technqiues and they had become adept at controlling their minds and they could meditate themselves into states of bliss and illumination. They operated under the belief that when they died they would go to Hindu heaven. However, one day it was explained to them that even if they should lead an austere life of yogic discipline and selfless acts, this was still within karma and although they would be rewarded with heaven at their death, this heaven would not be a permanent affair and they would eventually be cast down and reborn on earth again and in order to get back to heaven, they would have to go through living another saintly life on earth all over again and that this cycle was never ending. The yogis hated this idea. They longed for a way to end this miserable cycle and that is how the non dual way was discovered.
This is also the story of Buddha (and perhaps also Jesus, though this concept its much less clear in Christianity) but as you probably know after Buddha began his spiritual search, he learned all different types of yoga and meditation techniques and he did experience great bliss and insight prior to his enlightenment. However, he found that all the techniques he learned ultimately failed to give him enlightenment. That is when enlightenment finally came to him, as he meditated on the cause of suffering while sitting under a tree. Then he taught his "middle way".
So this is what I meant when I said every spiritual seeker was stuck in the same place. Some spiritual seekers might be just beginning the path and others may be very advanced having experienced all different levels of concentration, contemplation, bliss, samahdhi, visions, prophecy, etc but despite all this, they find themselves just as much stuck in karma as the most unspiritual person you can imagine.
So given that, you can easily see why someone might dismiss spiritual practices as worthless. But here's the thing, enlightenment does come eventually and it comes to the people who have sincerely sought it long before it comes to those who haven't. Often times it happens after a struggle. As a soul advances on the spiritual path, it enters into a state known as illumination, in which it always has some awareness of God. Living in this state can indeed be maddening because you are always desiring God and yet somehow he is always out of reach, even when it feels like you have finally found Him, the next thing you know, he's gone again. After a certain period of this, you eventually go insane and give up. This is when enlightenment finally comes to you.
But Ramana Maharshi says that unlike other practices which are indirect self-inquiry is a direct method, thus one can actually attain enlightenment through self-inquiry without driving themselves mad. I havent reached enlightenment yet so I cant comment on this further.
But I will say that even with this method, the path is difficult. Ramana Maharshi says that very few seekers are able to safely navigate through the final stages of contemplation to enlightenment. This is because what happens is that as you approach enlightenment, which is supreme bliss, cosmic orgasms start to role over you and this feels so insanely good that you cannot help but become distracted and want to stay in that bliss. This wanting to stay is your clinging mechanism, which is what causes suffering. So it is incredibly difficult to navigate through the higher ecstasies without desiring to remain in them, I always get derailed by the ecstasies myself, they are just so irresistible. The other pitfall is yogic sleep. In this state, the mind dies and the soul enters into perfect bliss but as soon as the mind comes back to life, the soul is once again trapped in bondage.
This is why true enlightenment is so difficult to attain. Spiritual experiences may seem special to people at the time but they are really common and worthless compared to the jewel of enlightenment.
Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 11:15 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19229815 - 12/05/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I'm going to save myself a lot of heartache and just try to be a decent human being. I certainly won't need religion in that case or the unending chase for elusive exclusive enlightenment. I'm just going to die and disappear soon and make it moot. Sometimes being old is the best of all things on such a rock as this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19230842 - 12/05/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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who am I? am I my brain? am I these thoughts? what am I? looking back in my life have I changed? who am I inside? who am I outside? does my outside look like my inside?
so many questions
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19231044 - 12/05/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Ramana Maharshi expressed a similar concept when he said that the individual soul was not real, because the world the soul and God were all in fact mere manifestations of the single Self. But then he qualified this statement by saying that the world, the soul and God were all real, because they were all real appearances within the Self
I remember him saying that the world as the world is unreal, the world as the Self is real, the meaning behind the ancient term
'The world is unreal Brahman alone is real Brahman is the world'
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all this beauty said:
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circastes said: Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.
Well, I happen to like my sages to be fully human. Fully frail and vulnerable, just like the rest of us.
Alan Watts, for example, had nicotine and alcohol dependency issues. Did it / does it make him any less of a sage? I think not. There are many, many other examples of very wise people who had "issues."
Some like the "Happy Smiley Face" image of what it means to have clear consciousness.
And that's fine. For them.
Nisargadatta was great & was addicted to nicotine & loved to argue & shout, he certainly wasn't mr nice guy yet many people experienced grace by just being around him, or listening to him, or putting into practice what he was saying
I'd trust most Sages that were mostly quiet rather than talking too much, but the real marker is people that you irrefutably feel bliss/peace/wisdom in their presence, when you really meet a Buddha and your open enough you just know
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: ...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.
I doubt that he "hated" the gurus. I think he hated their approach and their tactics. And with good reason.
The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness. Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you. You should heed my word.").
The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.
No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.) An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have. And the list goes on and on.
At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.
Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.
I'm afraid that the issue goes beyond woman priests and elite gurus. U.G essentially laughed off ALL religion and spirituality as meaningless and profitless claiming he reached enlightenment in spite of his spiritual efforts rather than because of them and he never recommended any spiritual techniques to anyone as far as I know, essentially denying that one could follow any type of path to enlightenment because of what I explained in the OP, all paths and techniques advise movement but enlightenment is lack of movement and lack of movement cannot be reached through movement. He showed no respect toward the so called great teachers like Buddha and Jesus and criticized their actions and there also seemed to be a great lack of love and compassion in his teaching.
This in my opinion is simply wrong. Ramana Maharshi says that everyone's ego is gradually being worn down by life itself but it happens MUCH faster in ANYONE who has does spiritual practice. So if all you did was meditate a half hour a day (but you have to be sincere of course) or say a few prayers every day and go to church on sunday, while you may not attain enlightenment, or notice any striking results, according to Ramana Maharshi, you have still done great benefit to your soul. U.G. on the other hand would deny that you had accomplished anything.
I have to side with Ramana, spiritual practices are appropriate when enlightenment cannot be realized immediately.
It goes back to the analogy I gave about the mountains and rivers. Yes, U.G. is correct that enlightenment is ever present and you cant really do anything to attain it but Ramana Maharshi is also correct when he says that although enlightenment is ever present and you need not expend any mental energy, so long as you feel compelled to expend mental energy, you might as well direct that energy toward enlightenment because if you do that, enlightenment will happen much sooner than if you go off looking for money or sex or whatever happens to strike your fancy. This is what U.G. denies and this is where he is dead wrong in my opinion. After enlightenment, the whole spiritual path may be seen as illusion but it is also real simply by the fact that you experienced it, it was your real experience.
Good points
Ramana at times would talk the highest truths like "There is no creation, no destruction, none bound, none seeking, striving, or gaining freedom. Know that this is the Truth supreme", and he would consistently remind you that you are the Self, but he didn't do it in such a totally uncompromising way like many modern teachers, i actually like the relentless uncompromising approach but there definitely would have been a time in my past where i wouldn't have been able to hear that so clearly
Quote:
Deviate said: But Ramana Maharshi says that unlike other practices which are indirect self-inquiry is a direct method, thus one can actually attain enlightenment through self-inquiry without driving themselves mad. I havent reached enlightenment yet so I cant comment on this further.
But I will say that even with this method, the path is difficult. Ramana Maharshi says that very few seekers are able to safely navigate through the final stages of contemplation to enlightenment. This is because what happens is that as you approach enlightenment, which is supreme bliss, cosmic orgasms start to role over you and this feels so insanely good that you cannot help but become distracted and want to stay in that bliss. This wanting to stay is your clinging mechanism, which is what causes suffering. So it is incredibly difficult to navigate through the higher ecstasies without desiring to remain in them, I always get derailed by the ecstasies myself, they are just so irresistible.
The final obstacle in meditation is ecstasy; you feel great bliss and happiness and want to stay in that ecstasy. Do not yield to it but pass on to the next stage which is great calm. - Ramana
I find what pulls me deeper is a desire for whatever is truly permanent, when i don't just want a bit of feeling good, i don't feel i've gone beyond bliss though, in a sense technically speaking what i am is beyond bliss as what is seeing bliss? but i still can't separate it into two, me & bliss
Its actually quite funny as you kinda turn this whole thing on its head, rather than keep on seeking bliss, you reject it, then you have more & more ever increasingly
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Edited by Chronic7 (12/05/13 12:42 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19231241 - 12/05/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19231248 - 12/05/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Well I'm going to save myself a lot of heartache and just try to be a decent human being. I certainly won't need religion in that case or the unending chase for elusive exclusive enlightenment. I'm just going to die and disappear soon and make it moot. Sometimes being old is the best of all things on such a rock as this.
I think there is a certain wisdom in just being a decent human being. I am always going to be seeking enlightenment though because I cant take any more misery. My life has been so unbelievably horrific, painful and miserable that I just cant take it anymore. I must seek an end to misery. Nothing else matters to me anymore.
If you offered me a billion dollars but on the condition that I would have to end my spiritual seeking, I would turn it down.
Edited by Deviate (12/05/13 01:30 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19231513 - 12/05/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy.
You and I obviously aren't experiencing the same bliss states. It would be easy to spend a bodhisattva type eternity there.
I do understand wanting out of regular existence however. I don't have long to wait. 
On other side? 40 virgins? and another round of misery. I'm hoping for an eternity of nothing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19233008 - 12/05/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.
quick question... I hear this a lot from believers of the Abrahamic god: god is good, but the world is evil. This is something I can't understand. How can you believe in a creator god who put you in a miserable situation, and then still think of him as benevolent.
Personally I see two options... 1) no god, and the world is a harsh place because that's how nature is 2) god or the gods are like the greek gods; quarrelsome, petty, bored, messing with humans for their own amusement, etc.
care to explain to me how a good creator god and a bad world fit together coherently in the same world view?
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19233021 - 12/05/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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god is mischievously malevolent.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19234553 - 12/05/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.
quick question... I hear this a lot from believers of the Abrahamic god: god is good, but the world is evil. This is something I can't understand. How can you believe in a creator god who put you in a miserable situation, and then still think of him as benevolent.
Personally I see two options... 1) no god, and the world is a harsh place because that's how nature is 2) god or the gods are like the greek gods; quarrelsome, petty, bored, messing with humans for their own amusement, etc.
care to explain to me how a good creator god and a bad world fit together coherently in the same world view?
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
Edited by Deviate (12/05/13 11:46 PM)
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HeartAndMind


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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19235478 - 12/06/13 08:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
I heard similar version:
God made humans of his own image, so they have free will. But humans started relying on mind too much ie original sin. So all evil comes from the mind, and in that way evil is actually unreal, it's transient just like mind. We're not experiencing it in deep sleep, but yet we are there to say that we 'experienced nothing'
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19236431 - 12/06/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you speaking in a literal sense or a metaphorical sense. i.e., do you believe that at one point in history humans didn't die and didn't get diseases?
I can understand the metaphor of the knowledge of good and evil as the cause of suffering... I personally try to live stoically myself.
Edited by White Beard (12/06/13 01:48 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: HeartAndMind]
#19237525 - 12/06/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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HeartAndMind said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
I heard similar version:
God made humans of his own image, so they have free will. But humans started relying on mind too much ie original sin. So all evil comes from the mind, and in that way evil is actually unreal, it's transient just like mind. We're not experiencing it in deep sleep, but yet we are there to say that we 'experienced nothing'
Yes, exactly.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19237535 - 12/06/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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White Beard said: Are you speaking in a literal sense or a metaphorical sense. i.e., do you believe that at one point in history humans didn't die and didn't get diseases?
I can understand the metaphor of the knowledge of good and evil as the cause of suffering... I personally try to live stoically myself.
There were no humans who did not die, because the very first humans sinned. The Bible says that Adam lived 930 years I believe. Whether that is actually true, I do not know. I don't say it's not possible though.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19237883 - 12/06/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll be 610 on 4/20
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19244480 - 12/08/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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tony parson is the new ug krishnamurti
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19244858 - 12/08/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The teaching of the "illusory self" is non-productive and should (in my opinion) stop.
It means absolutely nothing to most people, it never will, and even those (like Parsons) who teach it acknowledge that there's nothing to be "taught" there. So, stop talking about it and teaching it.
The verbalizing of it only has a disempowering effect. The metaphysical implications are not disempowering, but that's not what most people hear.
Buddhist and Hindu esoteric teachings on this are also essentially disempowering, and serve no purpose other than to enrich (ego-wise and, in some cases, financially) the teachers of it.
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19245115 - 12/08/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said: The teaching of the "illusory self" is non-productive and should (in my opinion) stop.
It means absolutely nothing to most people, it never will, and even those (like Parsons) who teach it acknowledge that there's nothing to be "taught" there. So, stop talking about it and teaching it.
The verbalizing of it only has a disempowering effect. The metaphysical implications are not disempowering, but that's not what most people hear.
Buddhist and Hindu esoteric teachings on this are also essentially disempowering, and serve no purpose other than to enrich (ego-wise and, in some cases, financially) the teachers of it.
youre right, these teachings are very disempowering. the idea is to disempower you to the point where youre just like "fuck this shit, I have no control." because in reality, you own nothing and you are nothing, with no will of your own, so to take on some kind of discipline in order to add something to yourself is counter productive. but when we actually believe in our own powerlessness and non-existence, there is freedom. it's all about belief/perception, not doing/attaining. enter grace. seeking is the poison, and these teachings help root out seeking.
Edited by mt cleverest (12/08/13 02:09 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19245206 - 12/08/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mt cleverest said: youre right, these teachings are very disempowering. the idea is to disempower you to the point where youre just like "fuck this shit, I have no control." because in reality, you own nothing and you are nothing, with no will of your own, so to take on some kind of discipline in order to add something to yourself is counter productive. but when we actually believe in our own powerlessness and non-existence, there is freedom. it's all about belief/perception, not doing/attaining. enter grace. seeking is the poison, and these teachings help root out seeking.
I agree 100 percent with every word there. Nevertheless, I feel this is an instance where talking is unproductive.
Those who sense this stuff need no "preaching." Those who don't sense this don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So why bother.
This comes across as terribly elitist, I know. I'm feeling a strong and powerful "elitist angst" at the moment, actually.
I think I'll go have another beer now...
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19248507 - 12/09/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mt cleverest said: tony parson is the new ug krishnamurti
yeah, when i was talking about the 'uncompromising approach' i couldn't help but think of Parsons, some would label him as 'neo-advaita' in a derogatory manner but i like him
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19254011 - 12/10/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I actually agree that these sorts of teachings are unsuitable for most people. The reason is as you said, those who really understand them do not need to hear this preached endlessly and the ones who dont understand it cannot get much of anything out of the teachings because they just dont make any sense to an ego.
Someone who is engulfed in ego cannot wake up right away. Even though in theory it should be possible, thats simply not how the process works for the vast majority of people. Hence people need some kind of teaching that acknowledges their experience of being an individual seeker and gives them a practical method for undoing this experience. Simply telling someone over and over that "its an illusion" is not practical if that person cannot accept it.
Its all relative to the state of the seeker. Thats why in the Bible God first revealed himself as an angry and punishing God rather than a loving God who is eager to forgive sin. If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds. Once they have truly committed themselves to the spiritual path, then they can be told that God is actually quite merciful and doesnt care how bad youve been as long as you willing to leave all that behind NOW. You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254390 - 12/10/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds.
This is not how I understand "traditional" Christianity. (I'm not a Christian, so others can correct me as appropriate.)
I merely need to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior... yes? I can continue "sinning," but I must continually repent of my sins... yes?
Traditional fundamentalist Christianity has always struck me as the ultimate "Get Out of Jail Card" for the spiritually lazy.
If on his death bed, Adolph Hitler had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and repented of his sins, he'd be in heaven today... yes?
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19254488 - 12/10/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like the Tony Parsons a lot. I think he has a great message. The difference between him and UG even though they have a similar message is that parsons presents the message in a clear and concise way whereas UG seems to go on forever about nothing much in particular. U.G.'s message also lacks love where as Parsons is filled with the love and aliveness that characterize realization in my experience.
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds.
This is not how I understand "traditional" Christianity. (I'm not a Christian, so others can correct me as appropriate.)
I merely need to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior... yes? I can continue "sinning," but I must continually repent of my sins... yes?
Traditional fundamentalist Christianity has always struck me as the ultimate "Get Out of Jail Card" for the spiritually lazy.
If on his death bed, Adolph Hitler had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and repented of his sins, he'd be in heaven today... yes?
I did not mention anything about "traditional Christianity" in my post. I was speaking about Old Testament times, when God was initially revealed as being just and beautiful but also fierce and punishing. In the new testament Jesus reveals that God is more like a loving Father, who forgives sins as soon as you turn back to him.
As for your comments on "traditional fundamentalist Christianity" I have no idea what that is or if such a thing even exists. Christianity has over 40,000 different denominations and almost as many different interpretations of salvation.
However, for clarity I think it should be pointed out that there is little that is "traditional" about most of these, as they came about after the reformation in the 1600s. Prior to the reformation, Christianity was dominated by the Roman Catholic Church in the west and the Eastern orthodox church in the East. Neither of these church have ever taught a get out of jail free card theology, on the contrary they have perhaps veered too far in the opposite direction, well at least in light of what Tony Parsons has to say. That is they generally present the spiritual path as a long and arduous process of purification in which one gradually subdues the passions and builds virtues until he or she is pure enough to be worthy of God's kingdom.
Now with the reformation Martin Luther (after despairing at his own failure to overcome sin in his life) decided that purification was just too hard, and therefore he taught that we could be saved even if we still sinned, if we put our total faith in Jesus Christ. This is no get out of a jail free card though. You must have real faith and if you do evil your whole life and then on your death bed you say "I want to get saved so uh I believe in Jesus and I repent" that is not a true repentance. You must have genuine contrition for your sins and genuine faith in Jesus Christ. Now, different protestant denominations have interpreted this in all sorts of ways and this is actually one of the most confusing areas in all of protestantdom. Some groups will say that after you are saved, you will automatically get purified from sin (not necessarily overnight but it will happen) and if you dont, it means you never actually accepted Jesus. Other groups will say that just having faith in Jesus is enough, even if it is not evidenced by a change in behavior. There are even some groups that say simply believing in Jesus for one minute is enough and then if you become a devil worshipper after that, you are still saved. That is called "easy believism" but it is only held by a small minority of Christians.
In my opinion, the Catholic/Orthodox view is more proper because it does not give people the wong idea that they get "saved" simply by saying to themselves "I believe in Jesus". At the same time, in light of the teachings of men like Tony Parson, you can see that there is some legitimacy to the idea that you dont have to struggle for years and years with prayers and seeking and ascetic practices and purification. If you can just accept right this minute that you are free (or in protestant terminology completely accept that Jesus has saved you) then you truly are eternally free. The reason I dont support the protestant doctrines is because they seem rather unclear on what exactly it means to "accept Jesus" or "have faith in Jesus". Of course I am sure there are many great protestant sermons which explain these thigns in various ways but it doesnt change the fact that they still lead to all kinds of minsonceptions. In my opinion if you are going to teach a message like Tony Parsons, you have to be absolutely clear about what you mean and not veil it in ambiguous terms like "accept Jesus".
So I prefer the Catholic/Orthodox view, which acknowledges the whole spiritual path in all its complexities. But of course the downside is that it makes it seem as though Salvation is far off and takes years of effort to attain.
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254702 - 12/10/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: So I prefer the Catholic/Orthodox view, which acknowledges the whole spiritual path in all its complexities. But of course the downside is that it makes it seem as though Salvation is far off and takes years of effort to attain.
I'm thinking that you define/perceive the "Catholic view" in a way that the Catholic Church as an institution does not. Which is cool, by the way. There's no reason you have to adopt the Vatican's "traditional" view.
But please help me understand the "traditional" Catholic view, Deviate.
The thief who was crucified alongside Jesus repented of his sins while on the cross, and Jesus told him that on that day he (the thief) would be in heaven as a result. This is standard text in the New Testament... yes?
So if I were having tea with the Pope today and I asked him whether Adolph Hitler would today be in heaven if, on his death bed, he (Hitler) "genuinely" repented and "genuinely" accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, wouldn't the "traditional" Catholic response be "yes"?
"Karma" would appear to have nothing to do with it. If there's genuine acceptance of Jesus and genuine repentance, you get a "Get Out of Jail Card," yes?
You say you identify with the Catholic view. I'm trying to understand how you interpret that view.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19254811 - 12/10/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So if I were having tea with the Pope today and I asked him whether Adolph Hitler would today be in heaven if, on his death bed, he (Hitler) "genuinely" repented and "genuinely" accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, wouldn't the "traditional" Catholic response be "yes"?
"Karma" would appear to have nothing to do with it. If there's genuine acceptance of Jesus and genuine repentance, you get a "Get Out of Jail Card," yes?
You say you identify with the Catholic view. I'm trying to understand how you interpret that view.
Karma has everything to do with it. Man cannot produce genuine repentance, nor faith for that matter, on his own. These are graces, so if someone is saved due to a deathbed conversion like the thief, it is only because for whatever reason God found that person worthy of that grace.
The Catholic Church also teaches the doctrine of Purgatory. A sinful soul cannot enter heaven even if it has put its faith in Jesus. So if a soul has not sufficiently purified itself on earth, then it must contend with the fires of Purgatory which burn the sin out of it causing it extreme pain and suffering at very deep levels until it is finally pure enough to enter heaven.
Essentially the Catholic Church teaches that one must die in a state of grace, or a state of friendship with God, in order to be saved. Of course it is possible to enter into such a relationship anywhere at any time but there is absolutely no guarantee of it, hence the need to make one's heart as pure as possible in order for it to be a fitting receptacle of Christ.
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Icyus
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254864 - 12/10/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But peace consists only in lack of mental effort.
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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deCypher



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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19255341 - 12/10/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
Well, isn't it?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: deCypher]
#19255452 - 12/10/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said:
Quote:
Deviate said: You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
Well, isn't it? 
"to the pure, all things are pure." this is why Paul always had to preface his gospel message by stating"Now this doesn't mean we just sin to our heart's content..." He was scared of how people with little to no awareness would handle grace.
Grace is huge and I think it needs a clearer definition. by defining grace as fate and law as the seeking/effort that comes from the illusion of having free will, things become a little more simple, at least from a christian pov. so yeah, fate (grace) vs free will (law)--that's what it boils down to. because if there really is no such thing as free will, it's obvious that all efforts to get somewhere or improve oneself are utterly pointless.
and if you believe that god/life is good, then fate is perfect and for your good. we are like puppets in a play where the only thing left to currently be done (if you want to reduce suffering) is to change your perception about what you previously thought was good/bad (true repentance), effectively reversing the curse of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil by entering the rest of resisting nothing. 0% law, 100% grace. but then again, if it's 100% fate then even your decision to resist nothing is not of your doing, so if you havent experienced rest yet, don't worry you will. In the meantime go play outside or something. the transition from law to grace is always a hard one. in the bible, paul accused the galatians of witchcraft because they were all reverting back to the law. seeking/spiritual practice is witchcraft, not that witchcraft is bad or anything, it just causes suffering.
tony parsons interprets the rich man in Jesus quote on how it's impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven as someone who thinks he owns things (like a body and an individual consciousness) and therefore thinks he's a person and in charge of his own life.
Edited by mt cleverest (12/10/13 01:56 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19255647 - 12/10/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm convinced that some day, science will resolve the age-old "grace vs. free will" debate by conclusively establishing a link between biology and spiritual awareness.
Science has been moving in that direction for some time now. Every year, more biological determinants are discovered. Everything from our susceptibility to cancer to our mathematical abilities. Why not, then, a biological determinant for "spiritual awareness," "clear consciousness," "mindfulness," whatever you want to call it.
It's all in your head. In your brain chemistry. What you inherited from your ancestors.
You can probably "tweak" the process somewhat (in the same way that favoring certain foods can lengthen your life expectancy), but, alas, me thinks the die was cast when your biological father's sperm was introduced to your biological mother's egg.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19255857 - 12/10/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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could be
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19262782 - 12/11/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said: I'm convinced that some day, science will resolve the age-old "grace vs. free will" debate by conclusively establishing a link between biology and spiritual awareness.
Science has been moving in that direction for some time now. Every year, more biological determinants are discovered. Everything from our susceptibility to cancer to our mathematical abilities. Why not, then, a biological determinant for "spiritual awareness," "clear consciousness," "mindfulness," whatever you want to call it.
It's all in your head. In your brain chemistry. What you inherited from your ancestors.
You can probably "tweak" the process somewhat (in the same way that favoring certain foods can lengthen your life expectancy), but, alas, me thinks the die was cast when your biological father's sperm was introduced to your biological mother's egg.
It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
But I see no need to use science for this purpose anyway. to what end? From a spiritual point of view, the individual self does not exist. Hence, to whom is the free will? Obviously there is no free will, there is no individual self to have a free will. But from the illusionary point of view of ego, man possesses free will and no amount of science or spiritual teaching can change that. That is, until you see through the illusion of being an individual self, you will always experience yourself as having the freedom to choose between various options. That experience IS free will. It doesnt make a lick of difference if your choices are biologically determined. You dont experience them that way, hence you second guess yourself as if you had free will. That is what free will is, it's an EXPERIENCE not something "objectively real" or measurable.
I also dont think you understand what we mean by grace vs free will. What is being said is that when you experience yourself as individual, you have to accept free will. Even if science proved that was no free will, you would still experience yourself as making choices, hence you would still possess free will because that is what free will is, an experience, not something you find by studying the brain. So, the Jews were given a law by God to help them align their own free actions with his will, which is righteousness. But St. Paul's awareness had penetrated through the illusion of being a separate self, hence he was no longer under the law, but under grace (the grace is that which allows one to penetrate the illusion of seperation). When you dont see yourself as separate you dont need a law to tell you how to act anymore. That is grace vs free will. How is science to supposed to "resolve" that? what needs resolving?
Edited by Deviate (12/11/13 09:15 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19264659 - 12/12/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
As I suggested, we can "tweak" the process, but the die was essentially cast when we were in the womb, in my opinion.
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit. Anyone who has ever tried to kick a bad habit -- regardless of its nature -- knows how hard it can be. It takes much much more than simple "resolve."
(Btw, I reject the whole notion that there's "no individual self" to possess this or that attribute, skill, or grace. If that idea works for you, fine. For me however, it's a non-starter.)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19264734 - 12/12/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree 100 fucking %.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Allisterem
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19265203 - 12/12/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like Buddhism in that it helps prepare your psyche for the world. When you are finally able to be unshaken by the ugliness of the world...THEN you are ready to go out and be an example.
This does not mean you go out and give Idiot compassion (giving blindly and causing more harm.)
The goal of bhuddism from what I've gathered is to change the world from the bottom up. To make the masses Wise and benevolent first so that the leaders can only be that.
Little acts of kindness and charity are the most revered on the other side. That's how you change the world.
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Allisterem] 1
#19266704 - 12/12/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Allisterem said: Little acts of kindness and charity are the most revered on the other side. That's how you change the world.
Oh my fuckin' god. How could it be expressed any simpler and clearer than that.
The secret to a successful and "spiritually fulfilling" life is to perform small acts of charity and kindness, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents.
That's the whole of the law, in my opinion.
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Sse
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19267907 - 12/12/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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may be a lot of inherited determinants but I think it may be a lot more complicated then that... just reflecting on myself and it seems environment/influences have a lot more to do with outcome then the genetic cast of the die... but what do I know hehe.
Many recovered alcoholics have horrific back stories that usually seem to be the reason for their seeking recovery, not doubting that there could be a genetic determinate that may give people a stronger capability of will, but I think circumstance plays a huge part in determination of a persons current state. But ya how much I cannot say, just reflecting on personal experiences and the many AA meeting I've sat through... and a family full of alcoholics and a neighborhood full of alcoholics... though many of the alcoholics I've known outside of AA are very functional.
life's complicated 
my very first memory was me at age 4 or something, reaching up with a cup to my grandfathers outdoor refrigerator tap and pouring myself a beer via the keg he had connected to it. Went out to his garden and drank it and then went inside and told my mom "mommy I drank beer", I got pretty buzzed. I remember it vividly.
I probably would have became an alcoholic at a very early age if I wouldn't have literally died from it at age 13... had to be revived by the paramedics. After that I lost my taste for it and then developed a greater fondness of cannabis... but of course things changed, but not my fondness for cannabis... that's always remained hehe 
I think I needed a father figure... sought a role model in every "cool" person I met tried to mock them all, my whole life... they weren't good role models... many were rap artists hehe. It took a lot of bullshit to wake me up... things are better now hehe mentally/ego-wise at least, hard to keep an ego like that when you've become half retarded :p
Edited by Sse (12/12/13 08:50 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19268949 - 12/13/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
As I suggested, we can "tweak" the process, but the die was essentially cast when we were in the womb, in my opinion.
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit. Anyone who has ever tried to kick a bad habit -- regardless of its nature -- knows how hard it can be. It takes much much more than simple "resolve."
(Btw, I reject the whole notion that there's "no individual self" to possess this or that attribute, skill, or grace. If that idea works for you, fine. For me however, it's a non-starter.)
You missed the point completely. Whether recovered alcoholics possess a gene to help them recover is irrelevant although you are making an enormous error is discounting environmental influences on behavior here, which any scientist would tell you. Our environment effects what we turn into, not just our genes. In fact the idea that recovered alcoholics possess a "recovery gene" is moronic because in order for that to be true, our genes would have to determine our behavior completely with no environmental influence and thats so obviously false you cant actually be saying that. Sure it might be possible that there is a gene which increases the likelihood that if you become an alcoholic you will also recover but its still a likelihood because environment plays an enormous factor.
But none of this has anything to do with free will. I am not saying we aren't a product of genes + environment, I am saying we experience ourselves as making choices. I mean why should I worry about what career to choose or what to do tomorrow? I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying? As I explained, free will is a concept that relates to your life experience, your experience of being able to choose between 2 or more options. Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is "real". It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
Picture this. Imagine if I proved scientifically that nothing existed. Would you give me all your possessions? why not? because regardless of what science has to say, you still experience yourself as existing.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:02 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268972 - 12/13/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is real. It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
That doesn't prove free will at all. It proves that people can live illusionary lifes and that's as far as you can take it. To say something is real because people believe it's real does in no way assure it's realness. People used to believe the earth was flat but no one to my knowledge ever fell off it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268973 - 12/13/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
may be a lot of inherited determinants but I think it may be a lot more complicated then that... just reflecting on myself and it seems environment/influences have a lot more to do with outcome then the genetic cast of the die... but what do I know hehe.
Many recovered alcoholics have horrific back stories that usually seem to be the reason for their seeking recovery, not doubting that there could be a genetic determinate that may give people a stronger capability of will, but I think circumstance plays a huge part in determination of a persons current state. But ya how much I cannot say, just reflecting on personal experiences and the many AA meeting I've sat through... and a family full of alcoholics and a neighborhood full of alcoholics... though many of the alcoholics I've known outside of AA are very functional.
Of course environment plays a huge role and ironically one aspect of environment is what we are told about alcoholism. for instance, telling alcoholics "whether you recover or not is completely determined by your genes, you might as well quit going to AA meetings and quit trying not to drink because whether or not you will ever be able to stop drinking was already decided the day you were born" that could theoretically alter the outcome. Now that in itself proves its not genes. Does what you tell an alcoholic effects his or her genetic makeup? No, but what alcoholics are conditioned to believe about alcoholism can definitely influence recovery. That is proof of free will right there.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268980 - 12/13/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me? And once again you have not shown free will.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19268987 - 12/13/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is real. It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
That doesn't prove free will at all. It proves that people can live illusionary lifes and that's as far as you can take it. To say something is real because people believe it's real does in no way assure it's realness. People used to believe the earth was flat but no one to my knowledge ever fell off it. 
Terrible analogy. I am saying free will is a real factor at play in the game of life in the sense that it alters the outcome of events. You dont have to call it free will but you cannot deny the fact that peoples experience of themselves as free influences the choices they make. In your analogy, you are comparing a belief to a physical reality, which would be like me saying that peoples belief in free will overrides predestination and i am not saying that at all. Free will is part of destiny.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19268993 - 12/13/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
Quote:
And once again you have not shown free will. 
yes I have
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269014 - 12/13/13 01:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You dont have to call it free will but you cannot deny the fact that peoples experience of themselves as free influences the choices they make.
To make it free they would have to make a choice without any past influence from their lives. And of course I know that we believe we have free choice but I'm fairly convinced we do not in actuality. All my choices were determined by the ones before that an influenced also by my environment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269023 - 12/13/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269025 - 12/13/13 01:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269029 - 12/13/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play. 
The fact that he never said environment plays no role isnt the point. His statement only mentioned genes in a situation where the role of environment was crucial to the discussion. Not my fault if he cant be clear.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269036 - 12/13/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
Just because to religions preach something hardly makes it a truth. If they are irrational it's not my fault. To teach that things are predetermined and yet we are free is not something to be understood but rather chuckled at in good humor.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269039 - 12/13/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play. 
The fact that he never said environment plays no role isnt the point. His statement only mentioned genes in a situation where the role of environment was crucial to the discussion. Not my fault if he cant be clear.
He was clear to me at least. If he would have meant environment played no role and would have stated such. To assume he meant something unstated is what makes that unclear for you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269054 - 12/13/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
Just because to religions preach something hardly makes it a truth. If they are irrational it's not my fault. To teach that things are predetermined and yet we are free is not something to be understood but rather chuckled at in good humor. 
Why not refute the idea (and demonstrate a proper understanding of it) then?
Btw, I didnt cite religions because they make it true. I cited them to show you that this has already been thought about, thousands of years ago in fact and nothing you have said has added anything to the debate.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:44 AM)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269058 - 12/13/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I already did in brief. You haven't been here long enough maybe but the subject has been breached in mega post threads for many years.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269060 - 12/13/13 01:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I already did in brief. You haven't been here long enough maybe but the subject has been breached in mega post threads for many years. 
ok so why should I bother choosing a career or a wife then? its already determined, right?
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269091 - 12/13/13 01:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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because we only believe we have free choice in the matter as you have aptly stated.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269118 - 12/13/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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and that is what I am calling free will, our experience of being free actually alters life on earth. Its not like the earth being flat, where its flat regardless of whether we think its flat. when it comes to free will, experiencing ourselves as free actually alters how we make decisions.
So essentially the earth being flat is non factor. The earth is round and even if everyone believes its flat its still behaves as though it were round. But when it comes to free will, life actually behaves differently because of the illusion of free will. Hence it is an actual "factor" that influences the outcome of events indepedently of our beliefs.
Do you see the difference? If I believe the world is round, then the flat earth goes away. But if I stop believing in free will, it sticks around. I cant so easily shake the experience of making choices. Thats why I say free will exists.
And do you see how this absolutely nothng to do with genes?
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 02:04 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269132 - 12/13/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It alters life on earth not because it's free, it's because we believe it's free but we are acting according to influences outside our control. Hence not free. (we are such funny creatures)
I'm not sure genes play absolutely no part in this. How are you so sure?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269141 - 12/13/13 02:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am not disagreeing that we are acting on influences outside our control. Thats why genes have nothing to do with it. Even if you proved everything we did was 100% a result of our genes, my position would not change at all. I am not denying any of that. I am saying that unlike the flat earth, which goes away as soon as man sees that the world is round, the illusion of free will sticks around even after it is accepted as false by the intellect. I can accept intellectually that I dont have free will and yet I still experience myself as having it.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269750 - 12/13/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hear that but it does not prove free will exists in any rational mind, way shape or form. It shows how it does not. Glad we are finally on the same page here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269802 - 12/13/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying?
Yep. That's pretty much it. 
When I introduced myself on this board, I made it clear that I'm a strong believer in biological determinism, a belief system which, for sure, ain't everyone's cup of tea. We can "tweak" our destinies -- do stuff that smoothes out the edges and straightens out the road a bit -- but the road map is pretty much laid out for us in our biologies.
(It would be nice, Deviate, if you could find ways to disagree with me other than by calling me a moron. It's quite possible that I am a moron, but can't that remain a secret just between you and me? )
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269811 - 12/13/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But this is what I have been saying from the beginning and I still think free will exists. It exists as a subjective experience which actually then becomes a cause of future actions. You may not like the term free will, because it is certainly a confusing term. Thats why so many debates have come about over it. A lot of people question what is free will anyway? A causeless action? and why exactly is a causeless action "free"? You see, if you analyze the concept, it really doesn't make sense to think about it as causeless vs caused actions. The question of free will is not a question of caused vs causeless actions as far as I am concerned. That doesn't even make sense to me.
And yet, it makes perfect sense if you think about it the way religion has thought about it. Men like Gautama Buddha and St. Paul of Tarsus understood that all of men's actions are determined by prior causes. However, they also understood that man experiences himself as possessing the freedom to choose and this experiencing itself is part of the casual chain. That is what free will is, the intersection of the illusion of freedom with the casual chain of dependent origination.
Think about it. If there was no free will, why did Buddha teach the Dharma and why did St. Paul preach the gospel of Jesus Christ? Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
But thats just the point! Even though our fates are predestined, at the same time, each man controls his own destiny. That's the beauty of it. If you choose good and you live in accordance with the Dharma/gospel you will become enlightened/saved but if you choose wickedness and live according to lawlessness you will attain a lower rebirth or perish.
So from man's point of view, he possesses utter freedom. His own choices determine his fate. How could you ask for more freedom than that? please dont tell me you are going to ask for causeless choices, because that doesnt even make sense and why would you even want to make causeless choices? "Uh tomorrow I am going to drive to Oklahoma for absolutely no reason" is that your idea of free will?
No, free will is the ability to determine one's own ultimate fate through one's own choices and we have that. It doesnt matter if its an illusion in abstract sense, so are 90% of the other things you take for granted and accept as real. Why would you single out free will and call it illusion but accept everything as real?
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19269821 - 12/13/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying?
Yep. That's pretty much it. 
When I introduced myself on this board, I made it clear that I'm a strong believer in biological determinism, a belief system which, for sure, ain't everyone's cup of tea. We can "tweak" our destinies -- do stuff that smoothes out the edges and straightens out the road a bit -- but the road map is pretty much laid out for us in our biologies.
(It would be nice, Deviate, if you could find ways to disagree with me other than by calling me a moron. It's quite possible that I am a moron, but can't that remain a secret just between you and me? )
Ok first of all, I apologize. I got frustrated because I felt like I was being so completely misunderstood when in my mind what I had said was perfectly clear.
Secondly I did not call you a moron. I would never call anyone on this forum a moron. WHere is what I said: "In fact the idea that recovered alcoholics possess a "recovery gene" is moronic because in order for that to be true, our genes would have to determine our behavior completely with no environmental influence and thats so obviously false "
I criticized your idea and said absolutely nothing about your intelligence, so while I do apologize because for being needlessly harsh, you could also do me the favor of not falsely accusing me of personal name calling when there was none.
I believe in biological determinism also, and yet I also believe in free will. The two have very little to do with each other in my mind. What makes you think they have any connection?
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 08:55 AM)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269923 - 12/13/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: I believe in biological determinism also, and yet I also believe in free will. The two have very little to do with each other in my mind. What makes you think they have any connection?
That's a very good -- and very hard to answer -- question.
I suspect that what we would like to call "free will" is, in reality, a very slow -- excruciatingly slow -- unfolding of our biological destinies. It happens incredibly slowly. Slower than the way paint dries. More like the way a tomato plant makes tomatoes.
In the seed that gives rise to the tomato plant is the entire destiny of the plant. There are contingencies, of course. Even if the plant's destiny was to produce abundant fruit, if it finds itself in a drought, it will wither and die.
Western religion teaches us that we human beings are superior to -- and outside the realm of -- all other living, growing things. That nature works differently for us than it does, for example, for grasses and molds. So, the idea that the same biological principles that apply to tomato plants also apply to us is repugnant to us.
I think Eastern spiritual thinkers generally have a more refined understanding of this stuff. There's a general understanding that the sense of "superiority" over other living things is, in fact, merely an ego-attachment.
Me, I'm totally, 100 percent, at peace with my biological destiny -- whatever it turns out to be.
If I live to be 100, that will be fine. If I don't, that will be fine too. If I reach some sort of spiritual, mystical plateau that brings me unspeakable joy and peace, that will be fine.
If not, that will be fine also.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19270091 - 12/13/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19270166 - 12/13/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue. 
You can disagree but you have not offered any explanation. I said more in my post than just the paragraph which you took out of context.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270239 - 12/13/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
I suspect that what we would like to call "free will" is, in reality, a very slow -- excruciatingly slow -- unfolding of our biological destinies.
No, absolutely not. What we call free will, is the experience of freedom which translates into outcomes which are different than what would be if people did not experience freedom. It has nothing to do with biology whatsoever. What you are saying is like saying "I suspect that we would like to call "happiness" is really just a chemical reaction unfolding in our brains. No. Happiness is an EXPERIENCE. It doesn't matter what the causes or correlates of the experience are. Personally I dont care whether happiness is caused by chemicals in my brain or monkeys in hot air balloons. I just want to be happy. You are making the mistake of thinking that your explanation for an experience is more real than the actual experience. Your explanation is conceptual. Concepts also exist within the realm of experience, hence they cannot be more real than experience itself. Its like saying that the tv show is more real than than the tv set. You need a tv before you can watch a tv show and you need experience before you can form concepts about it. So direct experience is the most real thing there is and free will is part of that experience. Of course at higher levels of consciousness, one can transcend the sense of free will and see that it is an illusion. But one also finds that a great many other things which you probably take for granted, including the idea that you are a separate individual, are also illusions.
In fact, the whole notion that you are a separate individual is intrinsically linked with the experience of free will. When free will is transcended, so is separateness because if you have no freedom than the boundary between you and other breaks down. Wasn't it you who disagreed with me earlier about the sense of separateness being illusion? if so, that is ironic. What is the separate self then, if there is no separate will? What is the individual self? Where is it, in what ontological dimension and what separates it from the rest of existence if everything about is determined by factors that lie outside it? That sounds like oneness to me and that is exactly what one experience when free will is transcended, oneness, God, Self.
Quote:
It happens incredibly slowly. Slower than the way paint dries. More like the way a tomato plant makes tomatoes.
In the seed that gives rise to the tomato plant is the entire destiny of the plant. There are contingencies, of course. Even if the plant's destiny was to produce abundant fruit, if it finds itself in a drought, it will wither and die.
Yes but this analogy fails because as far as we know tomato plants do not experience themselves as free agents. If they did, then they would have free will regardless of their biological destiny. I already explained this and I know I am not just stupid because this is an ancient idea. Your responses do not indicate to me that you grasp the idea.
Quote:
Western religion teaches us that we human beings are superior to -- and outside the realm of -- all other living, growing things. That nature works differently for us than it does, for example, for grasses and molds. So, the idea that the same biological principles that apply to tomato plants also apply to us is repugnant to us.
First of all even if true, I dont see what this has to do with anything and secondly I have studied the Bible extensively and nowhere does it say anything about humans being governed by different biological principles than tomato plants. Western religion looks at humans as "higher" spiritual creations than plants, yes, we are seen as having greater awareness and greater creative powers and this is because we were created in God's image and likeness. But it says absolutely nothing about us being governed by different biological principles, nor does it teach that we possess any freedom in any way other than the way in which I explained.
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I think Eastern spiritual thinkers generally have a more refined understanding of this stuff. There's a general understanding that the sense of "superiority" over other living things is, in fact, merely an ego-attachment.
well in Buddhism for example, being born a human is considered a great good fortune because as a human being one has the chance to attain enlightenment. Of course there is no superiority judgment, but eastern religion still recognizes humans as being spiritually higher than other creatures. They simply dont attach a value judgment to it. Its not necessarily more refined, its just a different way of looking at things.
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Me, I'm totally, 100 percent, at peace with my biological destiny -- whatever it turns out to be.
If I live to be 100, that will be fine. If I don't, that will be fine too. If I reach some sort of spiritual, mystical plateau that brings me unspeakable joy and peace, that will be fine.
If not, that will be fine also.
If you are at 100% at peace with your destiny than you have already achieved a high spiritual plateau.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 11:09 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19270684 - 12/13/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue. 
You can disagree but you have not offered any explanation. I said more in my post than just the paragraph which you took out of context.
You have an amazing ability to ignore what does not suit you. I have explained my position here in other posts in this thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270835 - 12/13/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Acceptance, plain acceptance :-)
no problems
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19270926 - 12/13/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: What you are saying is like saying "I suspect that we would like to call "happiness" is really just a chemical reaction unfolding in our brains. No. Happiness is an EXPERIENCE.
"Happiness" is totally a brain chemistry thing. In my opinion.
In the lab, they've hooked rats' brains up to electronic detectors, stimulated certain portions, and the rats appear to experience ecstatic convulsions.
The ecstasy we experience on certain drugs (provided our biologies permit) is a brain thing.
The electro/chemical "brain guards" responsible for screening out "unessential" info from our consciousnesses are temporarily disabled, and the mystery comes pouring in.
Some peoples' brains do not permit this.
It's a brain thing, 100 percent.
Quote:
Deviate said: Wasn't it you who disagreed with me earlier about the sense of separateness being illusion? if so, that is ironic. What is the separate self then, if there is no separate will? What is the individual self?
For me it's not an "either / or" thing. In the same moment, I am both a separate entity AND inseparable from the mystery that is existence.
Seen through my desires and my longings, I am a separate entity. "Desireless," I am part and parcel of the whole.
Chapter One of the Tao Te Ching.
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lessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270984 - 12/13/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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happiness is usually experience for me too
experience without thought
I don't subscribe to the chemical universe, but to mind is all
science can be nice though.. but I am not my thoughts or my brain
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270988 - 12/13/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes youre right, separateness and oneness co-exist simultaneously. We are God's children and yet at the same time we are God.
Quote:
"Happiness" is totally a brain chemistry thing. In my opinion.
In the lab, they've hooked rats' brains up to electronic detectors, stimulated certain portions, and the rats appear to experience ecstatic convulsions.
The ecstasy we experience on certain drugs (provided our biologies permit) is a brain thing.
The electro/chemical "brain guards" responsible for screening out "unessential" info from our consciousnesses are temporarily disabled, and the mystery comes pouring in.
Some peoples' brains do not permit this.
It's a brain thing, 100 percent.
How is it possible to miss the point so completely? Let me put it to you like this, why do you post on the shroomery instead of just staring at your computer screen? I mean, the shroomery is just pixels on a screen right and the same is true of your empty screen. Therefore I suggest you cancel your internet service and save yourself the cash and just stare at your screen. Its the exact same thing, pixels on a screen.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: lessismore]
#19271050 - 12/13/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mio said: happiness is usually experience for me too
experience without thought
I don't subscribe to the chemical universe, but to mind is all
science can be nice though.. but I am not my thoughts or my brain
I agree, I believe that the physical world is a manifestation of deeper realities. What appears to be physical reality is really "mind stuff" or energy which has seemingly hardened into solid matter. But even that is beside the point. My point is that even if happiness is caused physically or chemically as it is in the case of if you ingest a euphoric drug, its not the chemical state that you call happiness, its the experience. Otherwise how else would you even know the difference between happiness and sadness? Do you open your brain and look at its chemistry to decide whether you or happy or sad? So ridiculous. We can only even say "this chemical state correlates with happiness" because someone said they experienced happiness. Therefore happiness is an experience first and a chemical state second. Its like we could say happiness is donuts and cider. Is happiness really cider and donuts or do cider and donuts lead to an experience we call happiness? see how the experiences comes first. If I have a bunch of chemicals in front of me I dont say "these chemicals are happy". happiness is an experience and i have no reason to believe that chemicals can feel happiness by themselves without a suitable host and even then, its the host who feels the happiness and not the chemicals themselves.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19272106 - 12/13/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Let me put it to you like this, why do you post on the shroomery...
Boyfriend, you are posting here on a forum dedicated to spirituality and mysticism while the vast majority of males who match our demographics are on forums dedicated to discussing how big Britney Spears' tits are.
You and I aren't "special." We've done nothing particularly "extra" to get us here. We're here because our genes -- our biologies -- have brought us here.
To repeat (ad nauseum) something I've said in other posts:
Some people take LSD and see God. Some people take LSD and experience hell.
Now why, oh why, is that -- do you think?
Is it because we're "gifted" and they are not? Or because we have "worked hard," and they have not? Surely you appreciate the humongous ego-attachment such beliefs reflect.
Biology determines destiny.
Spiritual and otherwise.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19272378 - 12/13/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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A longish lifetime of experience has led me to the same conclusion.
Certainly wasn't was I was hoping to be true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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r72rock
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19272629 - 12/13/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
all this beauty said:
Boyfriend, you are posting here on a forum dedicated to spirituality and mysticism while the vast majority of males who match our demographics are on forums dedicated to discussing how big Britney Spears' tits are.
You and I aren't "special." We've done nothing particularly "extra" to get us here. We're here because our genes -- our biologies -- have brought us here.
To repeat (ad nauseum) something I've said in other posts:
Some people take LSD and see God. Some people take LSD and experience hell.
Now why, oh why, is that -- do you think?
Is it because we're "gifted" and they are not? Or because we have "worked hard," and they have not? Surely you appreciate the humongous ego-attachment such beliefs reflect.
Biology determines destiny.
Spiritual and otherwise.
Right on. I used to think I was special for thinking I was "in" on the know about matters of life way back...
Now I just see Philosophy as a hobby that I tend to really enjoy. Me philosophizing on the couch is no different than a dude who loves to practice shooting some hoops. Neither me nor the dude are doing anything virtuous or ultimately more meaningful -- and that's the best part now that I think about it. We're both just two people enjoying what we love to do.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: r72rock] 1
#19273852 - 12/14/13 09:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What a healthy and imo realistic attitude. Telling oneself that I have a direct line to the ultimate is just ridiculous. It's DA at it's most intense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19277161 - 12/15/13 12:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
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Deviate said: Let me put it to you like this, why do you post on the shroomery...
Boyfriend, you are posting here on a forum dedicated to spirituality and mysticism while the vast majority of males who match our demographics are on forums dedicated to discussing how big Britney Spears' tits are.
You and I aren't "special." We've done nothing particularly "extra" to get us here. We're here because our genes -- our biologies -- have brought us here.
To repeat (ad nauseum) something I've said in other posts:
Some people take LSD and see God. Some people take LSD and experience hell.
Now why, oh why, is that -- do you think?
Is it because we're "gifted" and they are not? Or because we have "worked hard," and they have not? Surely you appreciate the humongous ego-attachment such beliefs reflect.
Biology determines destiny.
Spiritual and otherwise.
I wasn't arguing that we were somehow special, or denying the role that genes play in our behavior. I tried to make that clear but I don't know how else to explain it.
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