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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269029 - 12/13/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Deviate said:
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Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play. 
The fact that he never said environment plays no role isnt the point. His statement only mentioned genes in a situation where the role of environment was crucial to the discussion. Not my fault if he cant be clear.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269036 - 12/13/13 01:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
Just because to religions preach something hardly makes it a truth. If they are irrational it's not my fault. To teach that things are predetermined and yet we are free is not something to be understood but rather chuckled at in good humor.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269039 - 12/13/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
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Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play. 
The fact that he never said environment plays no role isnt the point. His statement only mentioned genes in a situation where the role of environment was crucial to the discussion. Not my fault if he cant be clear.
He was clear to me at least. If he would have meant environment played no role and would have stated such. To assume he meant something unstated is what makes that unclear for you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269054 - 12/13/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said:
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Deviate said: Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
Just because to religions preach something hardly makes it a truth. If they are irrational it's not my fault. To teach that things are predetermined and yet we are free is not something to be understood but rather chuckled at in good humor. 
Why not refute the idea (and demonstrate a proper understanding of it) then?
Btw, I didnt cite religions because they make it true. I cited them to show you that this has already been thought about, thousands of years ago in fact and nothing you have said has added anything to the debate.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:44 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269058 - 12/13/13 01:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I already did in brief. You haven't been here long enough maybe but the subject has been breached in mega post threads for many years.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269060 - 12/13/13 01:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: I already did in brief. You haven't been here long enough maybe but the subject has been breached in mega post threads for many years. 
ok so why should I bother choosing a career or a wife then? its already determined, right?
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269091 - 12/13/13 01:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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because we only believe we have free choice in the matter as you have aptly stated.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269118 - 12/13/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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and that is what I am calling free will, our experience of being free actually alters life on earth. Its not like the earth being flat, where its flat regardless of whether we think its flat. when it comes to free will, experiencing ourselves as free actually alters how we make decisions.
So essentially the earth being flat is non factor. The earth is round and even if everyone believes its flat its still behaves as though it were round. But when it comes to free will, life actually behaves differently because of the illusion of free will. Hence it is an actual "factor" that influences the outcome of events indepedently of our beliefs.
Do you see the difference? If I believe the world is round, then the flat earth goes away. But if I stop believing in free will, it sticks around. I cant so easily shake the experience of making choices. Thats why I say free will exists.
And do you see how this absolutely nothng to do with genes?
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 02:04 AM)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269132 - 12/13/13 02:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It alters life on earth not because it's free, it's because we believe it's free but we are acting according to influences outside our control. Hence not free. (we are such funny creatures)
I'm not sure genes play absolutely no part in this. How are you so sure?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269141 - 12/13/13 02:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am not disagreeing that we are acting on influences outside our control. Thats why genes have nothing to do with it. Even if you proved everything we did was 100% a result of our genes, my position would not change at all. I am not denying any of that. I am saying that unlike the flat earth, which goes away as soon as man sees that the world is round, the illusion of free will sticks around even after it is accepted as false by the intellect. I can accept intellectually that I dont have free will and yet I still experience myself as having it.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269750 - 12/13/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hear that but it does not prove free will exists in any rational mind, way shape or form. It shows how it does not. Glad we are finally on the same page here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269802 - 12/13/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying?
Yep. That's pretty much it. 
When I introduced myself on this board, I made it clear that I'm a strong believer in biological determinism, a belief system which, for sure, ain't everyone's cup of tea. We can "tweak" our destinies -- do stuff that smoothes out the edges and straightens out the road a bit -- but the road map is pretty much laid out for us in our biologies.
(It would be nice, Deviate, if you could find ways to disagree with me other than by calling me a moron. It's quite possible that I am a moron, but can't that remain a secret just between you and me? )
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269811 - 12/13/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But this is what I have been saying from the beginning and I still think free will exists. It exists as a subjective experience which actually then becomes a cause of future actions. You may not like the term free will, because it is certainly a confusing term. Thats why so many debates have come about over it. A lot of people question what is free will anyway? A causeless action? and why exactly is a causeless action "free"? You see, if you analyze the concept, it really doesn't make sense to think about it as causeless vs caused actions. The question of free will is not a question of caused vs causeless actions as far as I am concerned. That doesn't even make sense to me.
And yet, it makes perfect sense if you think about it the way religion has thought about it. Men like Gautama Buddha and St. Paul of Tarsus understood that all of men's actions are determined by prior causes. However, they also understood that man experiences himself as possessing the freedom to choose and this experiencing itself is part of the casual chain. That is what free will is, the intersection of the illusion of freedom with the casual chain of dependent origination.
Think about it. If there was no free will, why did Buddha teach the Dharma and why did St. Paul preach the gospel of Jesus Christ? Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
But thats just the point! Even though our fates are predestined, at the same time, each man controls his own destiny. That's the beauty of it. If you choose good and you live in accordance with the Dharma/gospel you will become enlightened/saved but if you choose wickedness and live according to lawlessness you will attain a lower rebirth or perish.
So from man's point of view, he possesses utter freedom. His own choices determine his fate. How could you ask for more freedom than that? please dont tell me you are going to ask for causeless choices, because that doesnt even make sense and why would you even want to make causeless choices? "Uh tomorrow I am going to drive to Oklahoma for absolutely no reason" is that your idea of free will?
No, free will is the ability to determine one's own ultimate fate through one's own choices and we have that. It doesnt matter if its an illusion in abstract sense, so are 90% of the other things you take for granted and accept as real. Why would you single out free will and call it illusion but accept everything as real?
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19269821 - 12/13/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying?
Yep. That's pretty much it. 
When I introduced myself on this board, I made it clear that I'm a strong believer in biological determinism, a belief system which, for sure, ain't everyone's cup of tea. We can "tweak" our destinies -- do stuff that smoothes out the edges and straightens out the road a bit -- but the road map is pretty much laid out for us in our biologies.
(It would be nice, Deviate, if you could find ways to disagree with me other than by calling me a moron. It's quite possible that I am a moron, but can't that remain a secret just between you and me? )
Ok first of all, I apologize. I got frustrated because I felt like I was being so completely misunderstood when in my mind what I had said was perfectly clear.
Secondly I did not call you a moron. I would never call anyone on this forum a moron. WHere is what I said: "In fact the idea that recovered alcoholics possess a "recovery gene" is moronic because in order for that to be true, our genes would have to determine our behavior completely with no environmental influence and thats so obviously false "
I criticized your idea and said absolutely nothing about your intelligence, so while I do apologize because for being needlessly harsh, you could also do me the favor of not falsely accusing me of personal name calling when there was none.
I believe in biological determinism also, and yet I also believe in free will. The two have very little to do with each other in my mind. What makes you think they have any connection?
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 08:55 AM)
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269923 - 12/13/13 09:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: I believe in biological determinism also, and yet I also believe in free will. The two have very little to do with each other in my mind. What makes you think they have any connection?
That's a very good -- and very hard to answer -- question.
I suspect that what we would like to call "free will" is, in reality, a very slow -- excruciatingly slow -- unfolding of our biological destinies. It happens incredibly slowly. Slower than the way paint dries. More like the way a tomato plant makes tomatoes.
In the seed that gives rise to the tomato plant is the entire destiny of the plant. There are contingencies, of course. Even if the plant's destiny was to produce abundant fruit, if it finds itself in a drought, it will wither and die.
Western religion teaches us that we human beings are superior to -- and outside the realm of -- all other living, growing things. That nature works differently for us than it does, for example, for grasses and molds. So, the idea that the same biological principles that apply to tomato plants also apply to us is repugnant to us.
I think Eastern spiritual thinkers generally have a more refined understanding of this stuff. There's a general understanding that the sense of "superiority" over other living things is, in fact, merely an ego-attachment.
Me, I'm totally, 100 percent, at peace with my biological destiny -- whatever it turns out to be.
If I live to be 100, that will be fine. If I don't, that will be fine too. If I reach some sort of spiritual, mystical plateau that brings me unspeakable joy and peace, that will be fine.
If not, that will be fine also.
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19270091 - 12/13/13 10:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19270166 - 12/13/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue. 
You can disagree but you have not offered any explanation. I said more in my post than just the paragraph which you took out of context.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270239 - 12/13/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
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I suspect that what we would like to call "free will" is, in reality, a very slow -- excruciatingly slow -- unfolding of our biological destinies.
No, absolutely not. What we call free will, is the experience of freedom which translates into outcomes which are different than what would be if people did not experience freedom. It has nothing to do with biology whatsoever. What you are saying is like saying "I suspect that we would like to call "happiness" is really just a chemical reaction unfolding in our brains. No. Happiness is an EXPERIENCE. It doesn't matter what the causes or correlates of the experience are. Personally I dont care whether happiness is caused by chemicals in my brain or monkeys in hot air balloons. I just want to be happy. You are making the mistake of thinking that your explanation for an experience is more real than the actual experience. Your explanation is conceptual. Concepts also exist within the realm of experience, hence they cannot be more real than experience itself. Its like saying that the tv show is more real than than the tv set. You need a tv before you can watch a tv show and you need experience before you can form concepts about it. So direct experience is the most real thing there is and free will is part of that experience. Of course at higher levels of consciousness, one can transcend the sense of free will and see that it is an illusion. But one also finds that a great many other things which you probably take for granted, including the idea that you are a separate individual, are also illusions.
In fact, the whole notion that you are a separate individual is intrinsically linked with the experience of free will. When free will is transcended, so is separateness because if you have no freedom than the boundary between you and other breaks down. Wasn't it you who disagreed with me earlier about the sense of separateness being illusion? if so, that is ironic. What is the separate self then, if there is no separate will? What is the individual self? Where is it, in what ontological dimension and what separates it from the rest of existence if everything about is determined by factors that lie outside it? That sounds like oneness to me and that is exactly what one experience when free will is transcended, oneness, God, Self.
Quote:
It happens incredibly slowly. Slower than the way paint dries. More like the way a tomato plant makes tomatoes.
In the seed that gives rise to the tomato plant is the entire destiny of the plant. There are contingencies, of course. Even if the plant's destiny was to produce abundant fruit, if it finds itself in a drought, it will wither and die.
Yes but this analogy fails because as far as we know tomato plants do not experience themselves as free agents. If they did, then they would have free will regardless of their biological destiny. I already explained this and I know I am not just stupid because this is an ancient idea. Your responses do not indicate to me that you grasp the idea.
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Western religion teaches us that we human beings are superior to -- and outside the realm of -- all other living, growing things. That nature works differently for us than it does, for example, for grasses and molds. So, the idea that the same biological principles that apply to tomato plants also apply to us is repugnant to us.
First of all even if true, I dont see what this has to do with anything and secondly I have studied the Bible extensively and nowhere does it say anything about humans being governed by different biological principles than tomato plants. Western religion looks at humans as "higher" spiritual creations than plants, yes, we are seen as having greater awareness and greater creative powers and this is because we were created in God's image and likeness. But it says absolutely nothing about us being governed by different biological principles, nor does it teach that we possess any freedom in any way other than the way in which I explained.
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I think Eastern spiritual thinkers generally have a more refined understanding of this stuff. There's a general understanding that the sense of "superiority" over other living things is, in fact, merely an ego-attachment.
well in Buddhism for example, being born a human is considered a great good fortune because as a human being one has the chance to attain enlightenment. Of course there is no superiority judgment, but eastern religion still recognizes humans as being spiritually higher than other creatures. They simply dont attach a value judgment to it. Its not necessarily more refined, its just a different way of looking at things.
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Me, I'm totally, 100 percent, at peace with my biological destiny -- whatever it turns out to be.
If I live to be 100, that will be fine. If I don't, that will be fine too. If I reach some sort of spiritual, mystical plateau that brings me unspeakable joy and peace, that will be fine.
If not, that will be fine also.
If you are at 100% at peace with your destiny than you have already achieved a high spiritual plateau.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 11:09 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19270684 - 12/13/13 01:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I still have to disagree.
Whoever was predestined to be enlightened would be enlightened and thus it would make absolutely no sense to tell people to meditate or to pray as if they could alter their own destiny.
However unpleasant this might seem I believe it to ultimately be the case. Many meditate and pray to no result. Many have amazing result. The effort put forth may be the same. In the evolution of life on earth it seems that mutation tries everything it possibly can.
Often prayer is still of value to relieve the pressure of suffering. Same with meditation. No enlightenment or growth however need ensue. 
You can disagree but you have not offered any explanation. I said more in my post than just the paragraph which you took out of context.
You have an amazing ability to ignore what does not suit you. I have explained my position here in other posts in this thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19270835 - 12/13/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Acceptance, plain acceptance :-)
no problems
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