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Icyus
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254864 - 12/10/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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But peace consists only in lack of mental effort.
-------------------- And thus begins the reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.
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deCypher



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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19255341 - 12/10/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
Well, isn't it?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: deCypher]
#19255452 - 12/10/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said:
Quote:
Deviate said: You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
Well, isn't it? 
"to the pure, all things are pure." this is why Paul always had to preface his gospel message by stating"Now this doesn't mean we just sin to our heart's content..." He was scared of how people with little to no awareness would handle grace.
Grace is huge and I think it needs a clearer definition. by defining grace as fate and law as the seeking/effort that comes from the illusion of having free will, things become a little more simple, at least from a christian pov. so yeah, fate (grace) vs free will (law)--that's what it boils down to. because if there really is no such thing as free will, it's obvious that all efforts to get somewhere or improve oneself are utterly pointless.
and if you believe that god/life is good, then fate is perfect and for your good. we are like puppets in a play where the only thing left to currently be done (if you want to reduce suffering) is to change your perception about what you previously thought was good/bad (true repentance), effectively reversing the curse of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil by entering the rest of resisting nothing. 0% law, 100% grace. but then again, if it's 100% fate then even your decision to resist nothing is not of your doing, so if you havent experienced rest yet, don't worry you will. In the meantime go play outside or something. the transition from law to grace is always a hard one. in the bible, paul accused the galatians of witchcraft because they were all reverting back to the law. seeking/spiritual practice is witchcraft, not that witchcraft is bad or anything, it just causes suffering.
tony parsons interprets the rich man in Jesus quote on how it's impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven as someone who thinks he owns things (like a body and an individual consciousness) and therefore thinks he's a person and in charge of his own life.
Edited by mt cleverest (12/10/13 01:56 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19255647 - 12/10/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm convinced that some day, science will resolve the age-old "grace vs. free will" debate by conclusively establishing a link between biology and spiritual awareness.
Science has been moving in that direction for some time now. Every year, more biological determinants are discovered. Everything from our susceptibility to cancer to our mathematical abilities. Why not, then, a biological determinant for "spiritual awareness," "clear consciousness," "mindfulness," whatever you want to call it.
It's all in your head. In your brain chemistry. What you inherited from your ancestors.
You can probably "tweak" the process somewhat (in the same way that favoring certain foods can lengthen your life expectancy), but, alas, me thinks the die was cast when your biological father's sperm was introduced to your biological mother's egg.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19255857 - 12/10/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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could be
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19262782 - 12/11/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said: I'm convinced that some day, science will resolve the age-old "grace vs. free will" debate by conclusively establishing a link between biology and spiritual awareness.
Science has been moving in that direction for some time now. Every year, more biological determinants are discovered. Everything from our susceptibility to cancer to our mathematical abilities. Why not, then, a biological determinant for "spiritual awareness," "clear consciousness," "mindfulness," whatever you want to call it.
It's all in your head. In your brain chemistry. What you inherited from your ancestors.
You can probably "tweak" the process somewhat (in the same way that favoring certain foods can lengthen your life expectancy), but, alas, me thinks the die was cast when your biological father's sperm was introduced to your biological mother's egg.
It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
But I see no need to use science for this purpose anyway. to what end? From a spiritual point of view, the individual self does not exist. Hence, to whom is the free will? Obviously there is no free will, there is no individual self to have a free will. But from the illusionary point of view of ego, man possesses free will and no amount of science or spiritual teaching can change that. That is, until you see through the illusion of being an individual self, you will always experience yourself as having the freedom to choose between various options. That experience IS free will. It doesnt make a lick of difference if your choices are biologically determined. You dont experience them that way, hence you second guess yourself as if you had free will. That is what free will is, it's an EXPERIENCE not something "objectively real" or measurable.
I also dont think you understand what we mean by grace vs free will. What is being said is that when you experience yourself as individual, you have to accept free will. Even if science proved that was no free will, you would still experience yourself as making choices, hence you would still possess free will because that is what free will is, an experience, not something you find by studying the brain. So, the Jews were given a law by God to help them align their own free actions with his will, which is righteousness. But St. Paul's awareness had penetrated through the illusion of being a separate self, hence he was no longer under the law, but under grace (the grace is that which allows one to penetrate the illusion of seperation). When you dont see yourself as separate you dont need a law to tell you how to act anymore. That is grace vs free will. How is science to supposed to "resolve" that? what needs resolving?
Edited by Deviate (12/11/13 09:15 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19264659 - 12/12/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
As I suggested, we can "tweak" the process, but the die was essentially cast when we were in the womb, in my opinion.
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit. Anyone who has ever tried to kick a bad habit -- regardless of its nature -- knows how hard it can be. It takes much much more than simple "resolve."
(Btw, I reject the whole notion that there's "no individual self" to possess this or that attribute, skill, or grace. If that idea works for you, fine. For me however, it's a non-starter.)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19264734 - 12/12/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree 100 fucking %.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Allisterem
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19265203 - 12/12/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like Buddhism in that it helps prepare your psyche for the world. When you are finally able to be unshaken by the ugliness of the world...THEN you are ready to go out and be an example.
This does not mean you go out and give Idiot compassion (giving blindly and causing more harm.)
The goal of bhuddism from what I've gathered is to change the world from the bottom up. To make the masses Wise and benevolent first so that the leaders can only be that.
Little acts of kindness and charity are the most revered on the other side. That's how you change the world.
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Allisterem] 1
#19266704 - 12/12/13 04:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Allisterem said: Little acts of kindness and charity are the most revered on the other side. That's how you change the world.
Oh my fuckin' god. How could it be expressed any simpler and clearer than that.
The secret to a successful and "spiritually fulfilling" life is to perform small acts of charity and kindness, wherever and whenever the opportunity presents.
That's the whole of the law, in my opinion.
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Sse
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19267907 - 12/12/13 08:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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may be a lot of inherited determinants but I think it may be a lot more complicated then that... just reflecting on myself and it seems environment/influences have a lot more to do with outcome then the genetic cast of the die... but what do I know hehe.
Many recovered alcoholics have horrific back stories that usually seem to be the reason for their seeking recovery, not doubting that there could be a genetic determinate that may give people a stronger capability of will, but I think circumstance plays a huge part in determination of a persons current state. But ya how much I cannot say, just reflecting on personal experiences and the many AA meeting I've sat through... and a family full of alcoholics and a neighborhood full of alcoholics... though many of the alcoholics I've known outside of AA are very functional.
life's complicated 
my very first memory was me at age 4 or something, reaching up with a cup to my grandfathers outdoor refrigerator tap and pouring myself a beer via the keg he had connected to it. Went out to his garden and drank it and then went inside and told my mom "mommy I drank beer", I got pretty buzzed. I remember it vividly.
I probably would have became an alcoholic at a very early age if I wouldn't have literally died from it at age 13... had to be revived by the paramedics. After that I lost my taste for it and then developed a greater fondness of cannabis... but of course things changed, but not my fondness for cannabis... that's always remained hehe 
I think I needed a father figure... sought a role model in every "cool" person I met tried to mock them all, my whole life... they weren't good role models... many were rap artists hehe. It took a lot of bullshit to wake me up... things are better now hehe mentally/ego-wise at least, hard to keep an ego like that when you've become half retarded :p
Edited by Sse (12/12/13 08:50 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19268949 - 12/13/13 12:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: It doesn't work that way. For instance, you might have genes that predispose you toward alcoholism but its still your choice to drink. Biological determinants have nothing to do with free will.
As I suggested, we can "tweak" the process, but the die was essentially cast when we were in the womb, in my opinion.
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit. Anyone who has ever tried to kick a bad habit -- regardless of its nature -- knows how hard it can be. It takes much much more than simple "resolve."
(Btw, I reject the whole notion that there's "no individual self" to possess this or that attribute, skill, or grace. If that idea works for you, fine. For me however, it's a non-starter.)
You missed the point completely. Whether recovered alcoholics possess a gene to help them recover is irrelevant although you are making an enormous error is discounting environmental influences on behavior here, which any scientist would tell you. Our environment effects what we turn into, not just our genes. In fact the idea that recovered alcoholics possess a "recovery gene" is moronic because in order for that to be true, our genes would have to determine our behavior completely with no environmental influence and thats so obviously false you cant actually be saying that. Sure it might be possible that there is a gene which increases the likelihood that if you become an alcoholic you will also recover but its still a likelihood because environment plays an enormous factor.
But none of this has anything to do with free will. I am not saying we aren't a product of genes + environment, I am saying we experience ourselves as making choices. I mean why should I worry about what career to choose or what to do tomorrow? I am just a product of my genes, so it should all take care of itself, right? is that what you are saying? As I explained, free will is a concept that relates to your life experience, your experience of being able to choose between 2 or more options. Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is "real". It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
Picture this. Imagine if I proved scientifically that nothing existed. Would you give me all your possessions? why not? because regardless of what science has to say, you still experience yourself as existing.
Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:02 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268972 - 12/13/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is real. It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
That doesn't prove free will at all. It proves that people can live illusionary lifes and that's as far as you can take it. To say something is real because people believe it's real does in no way assure it's realness. People used to believe the earth was flat but no one to my knowledge ever fell off it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268973 - 12/13/13 01:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
may be a lot of inherited determinants but I think it may be a lot more complicated then that... just reflecting on myself and it seems environment/influences have a lot more to do with outcome then the genetic cast of the die... but what do I know hehe.
Many recovered alcoholics have horrific back stories that usually seem to be the reason for their seeking recovery, not doubting that there could be a genetic determinate that may give people a stronger capability of will, but I think circumstance plays a huge part in determination of a persons current state. But ya how much I cannot say, just reflecting on personal experiences and the many AA meeting I've sat through... and a family full of alcoholics and a neighborhood full of alcoholics... though many of the alcoholics I've known outside of AA are very functional.
Of course environment plays a huge role and ironically one aspect of environment is what we are told about alcoholism. for instance, telling alcoholics "whether you recover or not is completely determined by your genes, you might as well quit going to AA meetings and quit trying not to drink because whether or not you will ever be able to stop drinking was already decided the day you were born" that could theoretically alter the outcome. Now that in itself proves its not genes. Does what you tell an alcoholic effects his or her genetic makeup? No, but what alcoholics are conditioned to believe about alcoholism can definitely influence recovery. That is proof of free will right there.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19268980 - 12/13/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me? And once again you have not shown free will.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19268987 - 12/13/13 01:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Its an illusion of course, but an illusion with real consequences. Thats why free will is real. It would not make any difference if scientists disproved free will. People would still experience themselves as free and thus the illusion would still have real world effects and thus there would still be free will.
That doesn't prove free will at all. It proves that people can live illusionary lifes and that's as far as you can take it. To say something is real because people believe it's real does in no way assure it's realness. People used to believe the earth was flat but no one to my knowledge ever fell off it. 
Terrible analogy. I am saying free will is a real factor at play in the game of life in the sense that it alters the outcome of events. You dont have to call it free will but you cannot deny the fact that peoples experience of themselves as free influences the choices they make. In your analogy, you are comparing a belief to a physical reality, which would be like me saying that peoples belief in free will overrides predestination and i am not saying that at all. Free will is part of destiny.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19268993 - 12/13/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
Quote:
And once again you have not shown free will. 
yes I have
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269014 - 12/13/13 01:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You dont have to call it free will but you cannot deny the fact that peoples experience of themselves as free influences the choices they make.
To make it free they would have to make a choice without any past influence from their lives. And of course I know that we believe we have free choice but I'm fairly convinced we do not in actuality. All my choices were determined by the ones before that an influenced also by my environment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19269023 - 12/13/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Who here said genes were a sole determinant? Please show me?
This statement "
Recovered alcoholics probably possess a gene (a gene that one day may very well be identified by science) that gives them just enough intellectual and emotional "oomph" to kick the habit."
denies the role of environment.
He never said, that I saw, that environment played no part. And to say his position is moronic is just silly imo. That gene may well exist alongside environmental determinants.
I do agree with you however that environment is the largest determining factor at play.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19269025 - 12/13/13 01:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, this is the doctrine of dependent origination. We have this in Buddhism and in Catholocism also, although we call it predestination. Yet despite this, both Buddhism and Catholocism teach that we are free. How can we be free if our choices are determined? I just explained that, not my fault if you dont understand.
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