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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
#19231248 - 12/05/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: Well I'm going to save myself a lot of heartache and just try to be a decent human being. I certainly won't need religion in that case or the unending chase for elusive exclusive enlightenment. I'm just going to die and disappear soon and make it moot. Sometimes being old is the best of all things on such a rock as this.
I think there is a certain wisdom in just being a decent human being. I am always going to be seeking enlightenment though because I cant take any more misery. My life has been so unbelievably horrific, painful and miserable that I just cant take it anymore. I must seek an end to misery. Nothing else matters to me anymore.
If you offered me a billion dollars but on the condition that I would have to end my spiritual seeking, I would turn it down.
Edited by Deviate (12/05/13 01:30 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19231513 - 12/05/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy.
You and I obviously aren't experiencing the same bliss states. It would be easy to spend a bodhisattva type eternity there.
I do understand wanting out of regular existence however. I don't have long to wait. 
On other side? 40 virgins? and another round of misery. I'm hoping for an eternity of nothing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard

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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19233008 - 12/05/13 05:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.
quick question... I hear this a lot from believers of the Abrahamic god: god is good, but the world is evil. This is something I can't understand. How can you believe in a creator god who put you in a miserable situation, and then still think of him as benevolent.
Personally I see two options... 1) no god, and the world is a harsh place because that's how nature is 2) god or the gods are like the greek gods; quarrelsome, petty, bored, messing with humans for their own amusement, etc.
care to explain to me how a good creator god and a bad world fit together coherently in the same world view?
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19233021 - 12/05/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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god is mischievously malevolent.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19234553 - 12/05/13 11:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
Deviate said: Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.
quick question... I hear this a lot from believers of the Abrahamic god: god is good, but the world is evil. This is something I can't understand. How can you believe in a creator god who put you in a miserable situation, and then still think of him as benevolent.
Personally I see two options... 1) no god, and the world is a harsh place because that's how nature is 2) god or the gods are like the greek gods; quarrelsome, petty, bored, messing with humans for their own amusement, etc.
care to explain to me how a good creator god and a bad world fit together coherently in the same world view?
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
Edited by Deviate (12/05/13 11:46 PM)
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HeartAndMind


Registered: 01/09/10
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19235478 - 12/06/13 08:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said:
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
I heard similar version:
God made humans of his own image, so they have free will. But humans started relying on mind too much ie original sin. So all evil comes from the mind, and in that way evil is actually unreal, it's transient just like mind. We're not experiencing it in deep sleep, but yet we are there to say that we 'experienced nothing'
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19236431 - 12/06/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you speaking in a literal sense or a metaphorical sense. i.e., do you believe that at one point in history humans didn't die and didn't get diseases?
I can understand the metaphor of the knowledge of good and evil as the cause of suffering... I personally try to live stoically myself.
Edited by White Beard (12/06/13 01:48 PM)
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: HeartAndMind]
#19237525 - 12/06/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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HeartAndMind said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
According to Christianity God originally created the world to be a paradise for our enjoyment and to serve as a platform for our spiritual growth. The original humans walked closely with God and were not subject to things like death, diseases and despair.
But then a "fall" took place. The exact nature and meaning of this fall has been discussed endlessly by theologians but to give you a very basic overview, one of God's highest angels, Lucifer, either tried to become more powerful than God, or refused to serve humans whom he considered lower then himself and in this way, through pride, he was cast out of heaven and one third of God's angels fell with him. He then sought to prove God wrong for giving man freedom and thus he tempted the first humans to turn away from God and start following their own wisdom instead. God had warned them, not to eat fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". In my understanding, this a very clever way of representing what happened to the human soul after the fall, essentially to quote shakepeare "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so". So before the fall, man had an inner peace and wisdom, he was one with creation so to speak and thus he did not discriminate one event as being "good" and another "bad". Indeed, if you look back over your life you will see how this discrimination screwed you up over and over. You will see how things which at the time you thought were bad, ended up being the best thing for you. But anyway, after the fall, humans began to think in terms of good and bad and of course with this knowledge, the "knowledge of good and evil" greed came into the world as well as pride and every other type of sin.
So the path outlined by Christianity is the path that leads us back to our childlike innocence and purity, when we trusted God and did not think of everything in terms of good and bad. The Bible says "true religion is this: to care for widows and remain unstained by the world". It is our attachment to the world (as they teach in Buddhism) that causes our suffering.
Another way I have heard this explained is that God gave humans the choice to learn about evil through watching evil or through participating in evil. Mankind chose to participate in evil.
But the bottom line is that God did not put us in this miserable situation, we arrived at this situation through our own choices and only through our own choices can we escape it.
The Hindu saint, Ramana Maharshi compared blaming God for one's situation to a starving man sitting at a table with a great feast laid out upon it but rather than he eating, he sits pondering "whose fault is it that I am starving? God's or mine?"
I heard similar version:
God made humans of his own image, so they have free will. But humans started relying on mind too much ie original sin. So all evil comes from the mind, and in that way evil is actually unreal, it's transient just like mind. We're not experiencing it in deep sleep, but yet we are there to say that we 'experienced nothing'
Yes, exactly.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: White Beard]
#19237535 - 12/06/13 05:17 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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White Beard said: Are you speaking in a literal sense or a metaphorical sense. i.e., do you believe that at one point in history humans didn't die and didn't get diseases?
I can understand the metaphor of the knowledge of good and evil as the cause of suffering... I personally try to live stoically myself.
There were no humans who did not die, because the very first humans sinned. The Bible says that Adam lived 930 years I believe. Whether that is actually true, I do not know. I don't say it's not possible though.
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Icelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19237883 - 12/06/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll be 610 on 4/20
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19244480 - 12/08/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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tony parson is the new ug krishnamurti
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19244858 - 12/08/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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The teaching of the "illusory self" is non-productive and should (in my opinion) stop.
It means absolutely nothing to most people, it never will, and even those (like Parsons) who teach it acknowledge that there's nothing to be "taught" there. So, stop talking about it and teaching it.
The verbalizing of it only has a disempowering effect. The metaphysical implications are not disempowering, but that's not what most people hear.
Buddhist and Hindu esoteric teachings on this are also essentially disempowering, and serve no purpose other than to enrich (ego-wise and, in some cases, financially) the teachers of it.
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mt cleverest
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19245115 - 12/08/13 01:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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all this beauty said: The teaching of the "illusory self" is non-productive and should (in my opinion) stop.
It means absolutely nothing to most people, it never will, and even those (like Parsons) who teach it acknowledge that there's nothing to be "taught" there. So, stop talking about it and teaching it.
The verbalizing of it only has a disempowering effect. The metaphysical implications are not disempowering, but that's not what most people hear.
Buddhist and Hindu esoteric teachings on this are also essentially disempowering, and serve no purpose other than to enrich (ego-wise and, in some cases, financially) the teachers of it.
youre right, these teachings are very disempowering. the idea is to disempower you to the point where youre just like "fuck this shit, I have no control." because in reality, you own nothing and you are nothing, with no will of your own, so to take on some kind of discipline in order to add something to yourself is counter productive. but when we actually believe in our own powerlessness and non-existence, there is freedom. it's all about belief/perception, not doing/attaining. enter grace. seeking is the poison, and these teachings help root out seeking.
Edited by mt cleverest (12/08/13 02:09 PM)
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19245206 - 12/08/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mt cleverest said: youre right, these teachings are very disempowering. the idea is to disempower you to the point where youre just like "fuck this shit, I have no control." because in reality, you own nothing and you are nothing, with no will of your own, so to take on some kind of discipline in order to add something to yourself is counter productive. but when we actually believe in our own powerlessness and non-existence, there is freedom. it's all about belief/perception, not doing/attaining. enter grace. seeking is the poison, and these teachings help root out seeking.
I agree 100 percent with every word there. Nevertheless, I feel this is an instance where talking is unproductive.
Those who sense this stuff need no "preaching." Those who don't sense this don't know what the fuck you're talking about. So why bother.
This comes across as terribly elitist, I know. I'm feeling a strong and powerful "elitist angst" at the moment, actually.
I think I'll go have another beer now...
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Chronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: mt cleverest]
#19248507 - 12/09/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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mt cleverest said: tony parson is the new ug krishnamurti
yeah, when i was talking about the 'uncompromising approach' i couldn't help but think of Parsons, some would label him as 'neo-advaita' in a derogatory manner but i like him
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
#19254011 - 12/10/13 05:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I actually agree that these sorts of teachings are unsuitable for most people. The reason is as you said, those who really understand them do not need to hear this preached endlessly and the ones who dont understand it cannot get much of anything out of the teachings because they just dont make any sense to an ego.
Someone who is engulfed in ego cannot wake up right away. Even though in theory it should be possible, thats simply not how the process works for the vast majority of people. Hence people need some kind of teaching that acknowledges their experience of being an individual seeker and gives them a practical method for undoing this experience. Simply telling someone over and over that "its an illusion" is not practical if that person cannot accept it.
Its all relative to the state of the seeker. Thats why in the Bible God first revealed himself as an angry and punishing God rather than a loving God who is eager to forgive sin. If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds. Once they have truly committed themselves to the spiritual path, then they can be told that God is actually quite merciful and doesnt care how bad youve been as long as you willing to leave all that behind NOW. You see can be counter productive to tell people who are caught in serious sin and illusion that everything is actually ok and there is nothing to worry about because even though that may ultimately be true, if the person is not ready to realize it, they will instead use it as an excuse to do more bad things "since it ultimately doesnt matter, its all illusion anway".
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254390 - 12/10/13 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds.
This is not how I understand "traditional" Christianity. (I'm not a Christian, so others can correct me as appropriate.)
I merely need to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior... yes? I can continue "sinning," but I must continually repent of my sins... yes?
Traditional fundamentalist Christianity has always struck me as the ultimate "Get Out of Jail Card" for the spiritually lazy.
If on his death bed, Adolph Hitler had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and repented of his sins, he'd be in heaven today... yes?
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19254488 - 12/10/13 09:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I like the Tony Parsons a lot. I think he has a great message. The difference between him and UG even though they have a similar message is that parsons presents the message in a clear and concise way whereas UG seems to go on forever about nothing much in particular. U.G.'s message also lacks love where as Parsons is filled with the love and aliveness that characterize realization in my experience.
Quote:
all this beauty said:
Quote:
Deviate said: If the first thing God had said was, come to me and I will instantly forgive all your sins, then people in a low state of consciousness would simply keep on sinning thinking "its ok God will forgive me instantly". Instead people at this level of consciousness must be told about the power of God's wrath in order to make them stop creating bad karma through their misdeeds.
This is not how I understand "traditional" Christianity. (I'm not a Christian, so others can correct me as appropriate.)
I merely need to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior... yes? I can continue "sinning," but I must continually repent of my sins... yes?
Traditional fundamentalist Christianity has always struck me as the ultimate "Get Out of Jail Card" for the spiritually lazy.
If on his death bed, Adolph Hitler had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and repented of his sins, he'd be in heaven today... yes?
I did not mention anything about "traditional Christianity" in my post. I was speaking about Old Testament times, when God was initially revealed as being just and beautiful but also fierce and punishing. In the new testament Jesus reveals that God is more like a loving Father, who forgives sins as soon as you turn back to him.
As for your comments on "traditional fundamentalist Christianity" I have no idea what that is or if such a thing even exists. Christianity has over 40,000 different denominations and almost as many different interpretations of salvation.
However, for clarity I think it should be pointed out that there is little that is "traditional" about most of these, as they came about after the reformation in the 1600s. Prior to the reformation, Christianity was dominated by the Roman Catholic Church in the west and the Eastern orthodox church in the East. Neither of these church have ever taught a get out of jail free card theology, on the contrary they have perhaps veered too far in the opposite direction, well at least in light of what Tony Parsons has to say. That is they generally present the spiritual path as a long and arduous process of purification in which one gradually subdues the passions and builds virtues until he or she is pure enough to be worthy of God's kingdom.
Now with the reformation Martin Luther (after despairing at his own failure to overcome sin in his life) decided that purification was just too hard, and therefore he taught that we could be saved even if we still sinned, if we put our total faith in Jesus Christ. This is no get out of a jail free card though. You must have real faith and if you do evil your whole life and then on your death bed you say "I want to get saved so uh I believe in Jesus and I repent" that is not a true repentance. You must have genuine contrition for your sins and genuine faith in Jesus Christ. Now, different protestant denominations have interpreted this in all sorts of ways and this is actually one of the most confusing areas in all of protestantdom. Some groups will say that after you are saved, you will automatically get purified from sin (not necessarily overnight but it will happen) and if you dont, it means you never actually accepted Jesus. Other groups will say that just having faith in Jesus is enough, even if it is not evidenced by a change in behavior. There are even some groups that say simply believing in Jesus for one minute is enough and then if you become a devil worshipper after that, you are still saved. That is called "easy believism" but it is only held by a small minority of Christians.
In my opinion, the Catholic/Orthodox view is more proper because it does not give people the wong idea that they get "saved" simply by saying to themselves "I believe in Jesus". At the same time, in light of the teachings of men like Tony Parson, you can see that there is some legitimacy to the idea that you dont have to struggle for years and years with prayers and seeking and ascetic practices and purification. If you can just accept right this minute that you are free (or in protestant terminology completely accept that Jesus has saved you) then you truly are eternally free. The reason I dont support the protestant doctrines is because they seem rather unclear on what exactly it means to "accept Jesus" or "have faith in Jesus". Of course I am sure there are many great protestant sermons which explain these thigns in various ways but it doesnt change the fact that they still lead to all kinds of minsonceptions. In my opinion if you are going to teach a message like Tony Parsons, you have to be absolutely clear about what you mean and not veil it in ambiguous terms like "accept Jesus".
So I prefer the Catholic/Orthodox view, which acknowledges the whole spiritual path in all its complexities. But of course the downside is that it makes it seem as though Salvation is far off and takes years of effort to attain.
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all this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
#19254702 - 12/10/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deviate said: So I prefer the Catholic/Orthodox view, which acknowledges the whole spiritual path in all its complexities. But of course the downside is that it makes it seem as though Salvation is far off and takes years of effort to attain.
I'm thinking that you define/perceive the "Catholic view" in a way that the Catholic Church as an institution does not. Which is cool, by the way. There's no reason you have to adopt the Vatican's "traditional" view.
But please help me understand the "traditional" Catholic view, Deviate.
The thief who was crucified alongside Jesus repented of his sins while on the cross, and Jesus told him that on that day he (the thief) would be in heaven as a result. This is standard text in the New Testament... yes?
So if I were having tea with the Pope today and I asked him whether Adolph Hitler would today be in heaven if, on his death bed, he (Hitler) "genuinely" repented and "genuinely" accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, wouldn't the "traditional" Catholic response be "yes"?
"Karma" would appear to have nothing to do with it. If there's genuine acceptance of Jesus and genuine repentance, you get a "Get Out of Jail Card," yes?
You say you identify with the Catholic view. I'm trying to understand how you interpret that view.
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Deviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
#19254811 - 12/10/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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So if I were having tea with the Pope today and I asked him whether Adolph Hitler would today be in heaven if, on his death bed, he (Hitler) "genuinely" repented and "genuinely" accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, wouldn't the "traditional" Catholic response be "yes"?
"Karma" would appear to have nothing to do with it. If there's genuine acceptance of Jesus and genuine repentance, you get a "Get Out of Jail Card," yes?
You say you identify with the Catholic view. I'm trying to understand how you interpret that view.
Karma has everything to do with it. Man cannot produce genuine repentance, nor faith for that matter, on his own. These are graces, so if someone is saved due to a deathbed conversion like the thief, it is only because for whatever reason God found that person worthy of that grace.
The Catholic Church also teaches the doctrine of Purgatory. A sinful soul cannot enter heaven even if it has put its faith in Jesus. So if a soul has not sufficiently purified itself on earth, then it must contend with the fires of Purgatory which burn the sin out of it causing it extreme pain and suffering at very deep levels until it is finally pure enough to enter heaven.
Essentially the Catholic Church teaches that one must die in a state of grace, or a state of friendship with God, in order to be saved. Of course it is possible to enter into such a relationship anywhere at any time but there is absolutely no guarantee of it, hence the need to make one's heart as pure as possible in order for it to be a fitting receptacle of Christ.
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