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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19219516 - 12/02/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wow... I very much enjoyed reading this thread. Especially deviate and Icelanders post. That's all I wanted to add. Carry on :smile:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
    #19220290 - 12/03/13 12:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
I couldn't do the 3 hour talk but i listened to a few minutes, you brought up the most important message though, effortlessness

I find that ultimately this is a path of understanding, of wisdom, rather than the contrivance of effort

If you truly understand that absolutely nothing you think of can bring you to yourself then that is great, it's enough

I like these verses by Ramana Maharshi that deal with this topic

The fruit of action passes
But action leaves behind
Seed of further action
Leading to an endless ocean of action
Not at all to liberation

Better than viewing Him as other
Indeed the noblest attitude of all,
Is the hold Him as the 'I' within
The very 'I'

You yourself impose limitations on your true nature of infinite being,
and then weep that you are but a finite creature.
Then you take up this or that spiritual practice to transcend the non-
existent limitations. But if your spiritual practice itself assumes the
existence of the limitations, how can it help you to transcend them?
Hence I say know that you are really the infinite pure being, the Self.
You are always that Self and nothing but that Self.






You know I was thinking more about Ramana Maharshi's teaching some more in light of this and I don't know whether this is right or not but what I concluded was that although Ramana Maharhsi and U.G. Krishnamurti have seemingly contradictory teachings, they might actually compliment each other if understood in the right sense.

Ramana Maharshi was a traditionalist in the sense that he thought highly of various meditation techniques, especially bhakti whereas U.G. was totally opposed to worship of a god of any kind. So how do these two opposing views work together? Well, Ramana Maharshi said that self-inquiry was the direct method, but that it was not suitable for everyone, so he recommended bhakti in the meantime. That is why I picked up bhakti actually. But the problem then becomes as you practice bhakti you gradually become accustomed to the idea of realization as a goal for the future, even though Ramana Maharshi said this was not true. So the role of U.G. is to step in and undermine your logic, ruthlessly showing you how all your concepts and ideas are wrong and must go.

I believe there is some hope that self-inquiry offers, it destroys the mind from the inside out rather than all the other indirect techniques which never lead to the goal and cannot, even Maharshi says this that they are just aids that can never bring one to the goal. However, that is assuming that one practices self-inquiry correctly with due sincerity and perseverance. That is a big if.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19220793 - 12/03/13 06:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You know I was thinking more about Ramana Maharshi's teaching some more in light of this and I don't know whether this is right or not but what I concluded was that although Ramana Maharhsi and U.G. Krishnamurti have seemingly contradictory teachings, they might actually compliment each other if understood in the right sense.Ramana Maharshi was a traditionalist in the sense that he thought highly of various meditation techniques, especially bhakti whereas U.G. was totally opposed to worship of a god of any kind. So how do these two opposing views work together? Well, Ramana Maharshi said that self-inquiry was the direct method, but that it was not suitable for everyone, so he recommended bhakti in the meantime. That is why I picked up bhakti actually. But the problem then becomes as you practice bhakti you gradually become accustomed to the idea of realization as a goal for the future, even though Ramana Maharshi said this was not true. So the role of U.G. is to step in and undermine your logic, ruthlessly showing you how all your concepts and ideas are wrong and must go.




:thumbup: If understood then everything is complimentary & without contradiction as it's all one, only thought sees contradiction, and all paths lead to the same goal, yourself

Ramana often said self-inquiry was possible for everyone & universally applicable as all are the Self, strictly speaking it's not even really a path so when he saw someone that needed their path he would tell them to continue as they are, really every one is self-inquiring as everything is the Self, it's just whether your doing it in a roundabout way or direct


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
    #19220822 - 12/03/13 06:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I am wondering if perhaps Ramana Maharshi was at a higher level of consciousness than Krishnamurti.

Anyway, I feel as though I now understand self-inqiry a lot better. I used to practice it all wrong. I had some very powerful enlightening experiences with it, and then after that, I kept on practicing it with the goal of attaining another such experience and then I would stop practicing and check myself to see where I was. That is all wrong. One must practice self inquiry without stopping for any reason. It does not matter if you feel orgasmic bliss pouring from your heart center, you must not be the least bit impressed or excited or awed or afraid and simply go right on with your inquiry. You must avoid the pitfalls of ecstasy and yoga nidra. Rmana Maharshi says that without a proper guide being present, most people get stuck somewhere in these stages, believing they have attained liberation when in actuality it is merely a temporarily quelling of thought. The inquiry must continue until you can no longer make effort, as the Self takes over. So one must always be inquiring into the Self, you cannot stop to rest or check on your progress. Of course it is ok to rest if you are beginner but eventually the inquiry must become continuous.

This means you have to want liberation far more than you want any material thing. You must be completely devoted to the spiritual path. This is why Ramana Maharshi recommended Bhakti, by worshiping the self as God, you learn to love the Self, which makes it possible to devote yourself to searching for it. If you do not love God/Self, your mind will continue to fixate on that which you do love and distract any attempts at inquiry.


Edited by Deviate (12/03/13 06:48 AM)


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19220992 - 12/03/13 07:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have nothing to add to that except :grin:


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19221077 - 12/03/13 08:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You must avoid the pitfalls of ecstasy and yoga nidra.



A fine and delicate point.  Most people probably won't have the slightest fuck of an idea what you're pointing to there, but the thought is very enshrined in the mystical literature.

Enlightenment (or perhaps better, "cosmic consciousness") is not about "feeling good."  "Feeling good" is purely a biological rush of certain chemicals.

In the laboratory, they hook up the brains of rats and stimulate certain sections, and -- voila -- the rats convulse in what appear to be spasms of ecstasy.  Most would agree, however, that the rats are not experiencing spiritual "enlightenment."

The test, I think, of one's state of consciousness is how one deals with -- relates to -- the horrible times in life.

Everyone is cool with the good times.  The ecstatic times.  The "Rush."

Few are really "good" with the horrible times, though.


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
    #19221436 - 12/03/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

There's a different between experiencing tastes of bliss or love, and realizing yourself as that, becoming the embodiment of it, every cell of your being radiating it

Once you get past your desire for bliss you become a beacon of bliss for others rather than continuing to seek the experience for yourself, first you want bliss, then you can't get rid of it!

I'm not saying i'm permanently the embodiment of infinite bliss, but I've experienced the evolution of wanting it, then tasting it, then becoming it, it's my life's purpose to take that as far as I can, even though 'as far as I can' is just an idea appearing within that


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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
    #19221779 - 12/03/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Nice thread, got tons of insights. Might as well add something from Ramana or Papaji, not sure who said that:

Self is eternal mantra. It goes on effortlessly whether you are aware or not.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: HeartAndMind]
    #19226532 - 12/04/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

U.G. Krishnamurti was wrong about a lot of things. After researching him some more, it looks to me as though he was in some state of consciousness where he was free from thought but he had not proceeded all the way to God-realization like Ramana Maharshi and this explains the lack of love in his "teaching" if you can call it that. If he actually believed in the principles he was promoting, he would have had no reason to talk so much at all. He was really quite arrogant and conceited in my opinion. He acted as though he was superior to all the other gurus and yet if you study their teachings, you will see they are not different from his. For example, Buddha said he gained absolutely nothing from enlightenment. So who is he to judge how others have behaved after enlightenment? They were simply expressing themselves, its not his place to judge. Of course he is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.

There is a saying in Zen that at first mountains are mountains and river are rivers. Then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers no longer rives. But in the end, mountains are mountains again and rivers are rivers again.

This expresses the spiritual search. First you are just a kid, you accept the world as it is. Then you develop all these ideas about how the world is and one day you realize they are not real, that you have been living in an illusion and even the physical world isnt as you thought. THen after you become enlightened, things simply are as they always were again. The mountains are mountains again and the rivers are rivers again.

Ramana Maharshi expressed a similar concept when he said that the individual soul was not real, because the world the soul and God were all in fact mere manifestations of the single Self. But then he qualified this statement by saying that the world, the soul and God were all real, because they were all real appearances within the Self. So in one sense, your life in Maya is illusion (and this is what UG kept going on about) but in another sense, it is real, because you experience it. This is why ramana Maharshi dismissed debates over real vs illusion as pointless. Its completely a matter of perspective.


Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 12:49 PM)


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19226819 - 12/04/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.



I doubt that he "hated" the gurus.  I think he hated their approach and their tactics.  And with good reason.

The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness.  Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you.  You should heed my word.").

The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.

No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.)  An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have.  And the list goes on and on.

At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.

Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
    #19226898 - 12/04/13 02:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: circastes]
    #19226993 - 12/04/13 02:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.



Well, I happen to like my sages to be fully human.  Fully frail and vulnerable, just like the rest of us.

Alan Watts, for example, had nicotine and alcohol dependency issues.  Did it / does it make him any less of a sage?  I think not.  There are many, many other examples of very wise people who had "issues."

Some like the "Happy Smiley Face" image of what it means to have clear consciousness. 

And that's fine.  For them.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
    #19228197 - 12/04/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The guru is within

Dunno who said that :wink:
Dont look up to anyone, know thyself

Maybe it was buddha
The realizations will come if knowing oneself

To know oneself often means to know what one is not
And stopping doing what brings unhappiness (lesrn from mistakes)
Do what you love always
I respect maharishi and a few others though, he speaks the truth and only truth it seems

Enlightenment must be actions, serving others before oneself i.e
Difference between knowing the path and walking it they say


Edited by lessismore (12/04/13 06:57 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: all this beauty]
    #19228256 - 12/04/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.



I doubt that he "hated" the gurus.  I think he hated their approach and their tactics.  And with good reason.

The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness.  Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you.  You should heed my word.").

The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.

No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.)  An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have.  And the list goes on and on.

At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.

Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.





I'm afraid that the issue goes beyond woman priests and elite gurus. U.G essentially laughed off ALL religion and spirituality as meaningless and profitless claiming he reached enlightenment in spite of his spiritual efforts rather than because of them and he never recommended any spiritual techniques to anyone as far as I know, essentially denying that one could follow any type of path to enlightenment because of what I explained in the OP, all paths and techniques advise movement but enlightenment is lack of movement and lack of movement cannot be reached through movement. He showed no respect toward the so called great teachers like Buddha and Jesus and criticized their actions and there also seemed to be a great lack of love and compassion in his teaching.

This in my opinion is simply wrong. Ramana Maharshi says that everyone's ego is gradually being worn down by life itself but it happens MUCH faster in ANYONE who has does spiritual practice. So if all you did was meditate a half hour a day (but you have to be sincere of course) or say a few prayers every day and go to church on sunday, while you may not attain enlightenment, or notice any striking results, according to Ramana Maharshi, you have still done great benefit to your soul. U.G. on the other hand would deny that you had accomplished anything.

I have to side with Ramana, spiritual practices are appropriate when enlightenment cannot be realized immediately.

It goes back to the analogy I gave about the mountains and rivers. Yes, U.G. is correct that enlightenment is ever present and you cant really do anything to attain it but Ramana Maharshi is also correct when he says that although enlightenment is ever present and you need not expend any mental energy, so long as you feel compelled to expend mental energy, you might as well direct that energy toward enlightenment because if you do that, enlightenment will happen much sooner than if you go off looking for money or sex or whatever happens to strike your fancy. This is what U.G. denies and this is where he is dead wrong in my opinion. After enlightenment, the whole spiritual path may be seen as illusion but it is also real simply by the fact that you experienced it, it was your real experience.


Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 07:08 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19228748 - 12/04/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Then why agree that all religions drive you crazy or whatever you said back a ways.  You seem to be bouncing around?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Icelander]
    #19229354 - 12/04/13 10:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Then why agree that all religions drive you crazy or whatever you said back a ways.  You seem to be bouncing around?




I stand by that statement. As I said in my last post, you cannot attain enlightenment through mental effort but at the same time, enlightenment will happen much sooner in those who actively seek it. What happens is that all the seeking gradually erodes your ego making you more "susceptible" to enlightenment. As I said before, not even U.G says that things like meditation and prayer do not have effects. On the contrary, he admits they have powerful effects. He just maintains that these effects are not and do not bring about enlightenment. I can relate to him on this from my own experiences. For example, I have had rivers of living water flow from my heart after consuming Holy Communion at Mass just like Jesus speaks about in the Bible. I have seen angels and again with Holy Communion, I have had encounters with what I can only call the Cosmic Christ that were indescribably divine and blissful. I mean it was like the whole physical world including my body dissolved into the being of Jesus Christ, which consisted of a pure energy whose nature was love-bliss and it was better than any drug experience. Needless to say, after such experiences I would always think "ah, finally. My spiritual quest is finally coming to its completion. Enlightenment is just around the corner now". But then, whether the bliss lasted for a few minutes, a few hours or a few days, it would ALWAYS dissipate again and I would be back to my normal, scattered, apathetic, depressed self. Eventually it dawned on me that as incredible as these experiences were, they were all still in the realm of karma. I had not transcended anything at all. All I had done was induce certain spiritual experiences through the use of my spiritual practices.

This is exactly the problem that the ancient Indian yogis were confronted with. You see they had developed all kinds of meditation technqiues and they had become adept at controlling their minds and they could meditate themselves into states of bliss and illumination. They operated under the belief that when they died they would go to Hindu heaven. However, one day it was explained to them that even if they should lead an austere life of yogic discipline and selfless acts, this was still within karma and although they would be rewarded with heaven at their death, this heaven would not be a permanent affair and they would eventually be cast down and reborn on earth again and in order to get back to heaven, they would have to go through living another saintly life on earth all over again and that this cycle was never ending. The yogis hated this idea. They longed for a way to end this miserable cycle and that is how the non dual way was discovered.

This is also the story of Buddha (and perhaps also Jesus, though this concept its much less clear in Christianity) but as you probably know after Buddha began his spiritual search, he learned all different types of yoga and meditation techniques and he did experience great bliss and insight prior to his enlightenment. However, he found that all the techniques he learned ultimately failed to give him enlightenment. That is when enlightenment finally came to him, as he meditated on the cause of suffering while sitting under a tree. Then he taught his "middle way".

So this is what I meant when I said every spiritual seeker was stuck in the same place. Some spiritual seekers might be just beginning the path and others may be very advanced having experienced all different levels of concentration, contemplation, bliss, samahdhi, visions, prophecy, etc but despite all this, they find themselves just as much stuck in karma as the most unspiritual person you can imagine.

So given that, you can easily see why someone might dismiss spiritual practices as worthless. But here's the thing, enlightenment does come eventually and it comes to the people who have sincerely sought it long before it comes to those who haven't. Often times it happens after a struggle. As a soul advances on the spiritual path, it enters into a state known as illumination, in which it always has some awareness of God. Living in this state can indeed be maddening because you are always desiring God and yet somehow he is always out of reach, even when it feels like you have finally found Him, the next thing you know, he's gone again. After a certain period of this, you eventually go insane and give up. This is when enlightenment finally comes to you.

But Ramana Maharshi says that unlike other practices which are indirect self-inquiry is a direct method, thus one can actually attain enlightenment through self-inquiry without driving themselves mad. I havent reached enlightenment yet so I cant comment on this further.

But I will say that even with this method, the path is difficult. Ramana Maharshi says that very few seekers are able to safely navigate through the final stages of contemplation to enlightenment. This is because what happens is that as you approach enlightenment, which is supreme bliss, cosmic orgasms start to role over you and this feels so insanely good that you cannot help but become distracted and want to stay in that bliss. This wanting to stay is your clinging mechanism, which is what causes suffering. So it is incredibly difficult to navigate through the higher ecstasies without desiring to remain in them, I always get derailed by the ecstasies myself, they are just so irresistible. The other pitfall is yogic sleep. In this state, the mind dies and the soul enters into perfect bliss but as soon as the mind comes back to life, the soul is once again trapped in bondage.

This is why true enlightenment is so difficult to attain. Spiritual experiences may seem special to people at the time but they are really common and worthless compared to the jewel of enlightenment.


Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 11:15 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19229815 - 12/05/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well I'm going to save myself a lot of heartache and just try to be a decent human being. I certainly won't need religion in that case or the unending chase for elusive exclusive enlightenment.  I'm just going to die and disappear soon and make it moot.  Sometimes being old is the best of all things on such a rock as this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19230842 - 12/05/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

who am I?
am I my brain? am I these thoughts? what am I?
looking back in my life have I changed?
who am I inside?
who am I outside?
does my outside look like my inside?

so many questions :wink:


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Deviate]
    #19231044 - 12/05/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Ramana Maharshi expressed a similar concept when he said that the individual soul was not real, because the world the soul and God were all in fact mere manifestations of the single Self. But then he qualified this statement by saying that the world, the soul and God were all real, because they were all real appearances within the Self




I remember him saying that the world as the world is unreal, the world as the Self is real, the meaning behind the ancient term

'The world is unreal
Brahman alone is real
Brahman is the world'

Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Personally I find UG to be a bit of an unpleasant person. He is also particularly dark and bitter in many of his ideas. I think people who have these kinds of views have psychological development problems. What they say seems pretty moot, then.



Well, I happen to like my sages to be fully human.  Fully frail and vulnerable, just like the rest of us.

Alan Watts, for example, had nicotine and alcohol dependency issues.  Did it / does it make him any less of a sage?  I think not.  There are many, many other examples of very wise people who had "issues."

Some like the "Happy Smiley Face" image of what it means to have clear consciousness. 

And that's fine.  For them.




Nisargadatta was great & was addicted to nicotine & loved to argue & shout, he certainly wasn't mr nice guy yet many people experienced grace by just being around him, or listening to him, or putting into practice what he was saying

I'd trust most Sages that were mostly quiet rather than talking too much, but the real marker is people that you irrefutably feel bliss/peace/wisdom in their presence, when you really meet a Buddha and your open enough you just know

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

all this beauty said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
...but his opinion is just his view of the universe, not more right than any of the gurus that he hated so much.



I doubt that he "hated" the gurus.  I think he hated their approach and their tactics.  And with good reason.

The guru business is essentially disempowering ("You are in darkness.  Your life is a sham."), as well as egoistic ("I am among the elite few who have penetrated the veil of darkness that surrounds people like you.  You should heed my word.").

The guru business is disempowering in its way just as the traditional Catholic Church is disempowering in its own way.

No women priests. (What could possibly be more disempowering to the half of the world's population that is not male.)  An anointed clergy that supposedly has a special "rapport" with God that the people in the pews do not have.  And the list goes on and on.

At least the Western institutional religions don't make a fetish out of the "ego" thing.

Most Eastern gurus, it seems, are abnormally fixated on the notion.




I'm afraid that the issue goes beyond woman priests and elite gurus. U.G essentially laughed off ALL religion and spirituality as meaningless and profitless claiming he reached enlightenment in spite of his spiritual efforts rather than because of them and he never recommended any spiritual techniques to anyone as far as I know, essentially denying that one could follow any type of path to enlightenment because of what I explained in the OP, all paths and techniques advise movement but enlightenment is lack of movement and lack of movement cannot be reached through movement. He showed no respect toward the so called great teachers like Buddha and Jesus and criticized their actions and there also seemed to be a great lack of love and compassion in his teaching.

This in my opinion is simply wrong. Ramana Maharshi says that everyone's ego is gradually being worn down by life itself but it happens MUCH faster in ANYONE who has does spiritual practice. So if all you did was meditate a half hour a day (but you have to be sincere of course) or say a few prayers every day and go to church on sunday, while you may not attain enlightenment, or notice any striking results, according to Ramana Maharshi, you have still done great benefit to your soul. U.G. on the other hand would deny that you had accomplished anything.

I have to side with Ramana, spiritual practices are appropriate when enlightenment cannot be realized immediately.

It goes back to the analogy I gave about the mountains and rivers. Yes, U.G. is correct that enlightenment is ever present and you cant really do anything to attain it but Ramana Maharshi is also correct when he says that although enlightenment is ever present and you need not expend any mental energy, so long as you feel compelled to expend mental energy, you might as well direct that energy toward enlightenment because if you do that, enlightenment will happen much sooner than if you go off looking for money or sex or whatever happens to strike your fancy. This is what U.G. denies and this is where he is dead wrong in my opinion. After enlightenment, the whole spiritual path may be seen as illusion but it is also real simply by the fact that you experienced it, it was your real experience.




Good points

Ramana at times would talk the highest truths like "There is no creation, no destruction, none bound, none seeking, striving, or gaining freedom. Know that this is the Truth supreme", and he would consistently remind you that you are the Self, but he didn't do it in such a totally uncompromising way like many modern teachers, i actually like the relentless uncompromising approach but there definitely would have been a time in my past where i wouldn't have been able to hear that so clearly

Quote:

Deviate said:
But Ramana Maharshi says that unlike other practices which are indirect self-inquiry is a direct method, thus one can actually attain enlightenment through self-inquiry without driving themselves mad. I havent reached enlightenment yet so I cant comment on this further.

But I will say that even with this method, the path is difficult. Ramana Maharshi says that very few seekers are able to safely navigate through the final stages of contemplation to enlightenment. This is because what happens is that as you approach enlightenment, which is supreme bliss, cosmic orgasms start to role over you and this feels so insanely good that you cannot help but become distracted and want to stay in that bliss. This wanting to stay is your clinging mechanism, which is what causes suffering. So it is incredibly difficult to navigate through the higher ecstasies without desiring to remain in them, I always get derailed by the ecstasies myself, they are just so irresistible.




The final obstacle in meditation is ecstasy; you feel great bliss and happiness and want to stay in that ecstasy.
Do not yield to it but pass on to the next stage which is great calm. - Ramana


I find what pulls me deeper is a desire for whatever is truly permanent, when i don't just want a bit of feeling good, i don't feel i've gone beyond bliss though, in a sense technically speaking what i am is beyond bliss as what is seeing bliss? but i still can't separate it into two, me & bliss

Its actually quite funny as you kinda turn this whole thing on its head, rather than keep on seeking bliss, you reject it, then you have more & more ever increasingly


--------------------


Edited by Chronic7 (12/05/13 12:42 PM)


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Re: Interesting talk by U.G Krishnamurti for anyone pursuing enlightenment by any method [Re: Chronic7]
    #19231241 - 12/05/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes that is why I have some hope for myself. I am beginning to become dissolusioned, disatisfied and disappointed by everything, including incredible bliss and ecstasy. I look at it as nothing but another annoyance in this miserable life which for me consists of just one annoyance after another. But even after you pass through the first stages of bliss unscathed, there are still higher levels after that, levels in which you begin to manifest divine wisdom and understanding and incredible power (remener Jesus Christ said "I have been given all power on heaven and earth). I doubt I could make it past these levels without becoming involved. You just get so awe struck that you forget youre supposed to not care.


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