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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19211902 - 12/01/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.

I'll assume .....





1) why not?

2) dont do that.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211915 - 12/01/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

rbalzer said:
I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.

I'll assume .....





1) why not?

2) dont do that.



i already listed my reasons.

my assumptions were more or less based on facts


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OfflineSoulidarity
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: NotTheDevil]
    #19211929 - 12/01/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
:dawerp: he's talking about the feeling it gives.




so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?

it's not.



Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.



Nope, people smoke crack because it feels good, believe me


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19211930 - 12/01/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
i already listed my reasons.





you didnt.
Quote:

rbalzer said:
thats your argument? I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.





Quote:

rbalzer said:my assumptions were more or less based on facts



go ahead and post those for me.

because i've looked around quite a bit and i dont think they exist.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Soulidarity]
    #19211933 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Soulidarity said:
Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

NotTheDevil said:
:dawerp: he's talking about the feeling it gives.




so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?

it's not.



Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.



Nope, people smoke crack because it feels good, believe me



right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.

but there are none as far as i know


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211935 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco.  The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half.  I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past.  :nonono:

Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor.  Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.





the withdrawals are vastly different.

the addiction uses the same mechanisms.




All addictions use the same 'mechanism' if you generalize enough--they consist of a behavior that when performed, yields a pleasurable feeling, usually involving the release of dopamine and/or endorphins.  This pleasurable feeling then provokes the person in question to repeat the behavior over and over again to try to feel that pleasure again.

This does not mean that heroin and nicotine share nearly the same level of addictiveness or risk to the drug user.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19211938 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.

but there are none as far as i know




how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.

see: DMT
see: LSD
see: peyote


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19211943 - 12/01/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco.  The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half.  I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past.  :nonono:

Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor.  Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.





the withdrawals are vastly different.

the addiction uses the same mechanisms.




All addictions use the same 'mechanism' if you generalize enough--they consist of a behavior that when performed, yields a pleasurable feeling, usually involving the release of dopamine and/or endorphins.  This pleasurable feeling then provokes the person in question to repeat the behavior over and over again to try to feel that pleasure again.

This does not mean that heroin and nicotine share nearly the same level of addictiveness or risk to the drug user.





actually thats wrong.

what you described is a simple pavlovian response.


drug addiction is much more complicated than that.
it has to do with these chemicals being similar to neurotransmitters.


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211950 - 12/01/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

rbalzer said:
i already listed my reasons.





you didnt.
Quote:

rbalzer said:
thats your argument? I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.





Quote:

rbalzer said:my assumptions were more or less based on facts



go ahead and post those for me.

because i've looked around quite a bit and i dont think they exist.



Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

rbalzer said:
right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.

but there are none as far as i know




how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.

see: DMT
see: LSD
see: peyote



so you're saying they have nothing to do with eachother? why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19211957 - 12/01/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?




youre straw-manning so hard.

people use these drugs because they feel good.

people get addicted to these drugs because of their addictive properties

the addictive properties are not relevant to the pleasure properties.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211959 - 12/01/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
it has to do with these chemicals being similar to neurotransmitters.




No, you think?  :lol:

There was nothing incorrect in my statement.  Taking pleasurable, addictive drugs does promote the release of dopamine and/or endorphins, in addition to the drugs themselves sometimes acting similarly to these neurotransmitters themselves and activating the same brain regions.

Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine.  Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19211963 - 12/01/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine.  Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.




correct.

and none of those activities are addictive, in the least.

so how did that help you?


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211969 - 12/01/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

rbalzer said:
why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?




youre straw-manning so hard.

people use these drugs because they feel good.

people get addicted to these drugs because of their addictive properties

the addictive properties are not relevant to the pleasure properties.



finally a logical statement. I needed to see all that together to finally understand what you've been tryinggg to say this whole time.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211974 - 12/01/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
I needed to see all that together to finally understand what you've been tryinggg to say this whole time.




sounds like a personal problem.




Quote:

k00laid said:
how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.





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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211975 - 12/01/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine.  Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.




correct.

and none of those activities are addictive, in the least.

so how did that help you?




:lolwut:

Kudos for missing my point entirely.  All I was rebutting was what seemed to be your original contention--that nicotine was at least as addictive as heroin, or even in the same league of addictiveness.  If you weren't implying this, I apologize for the misconstrual.  :shrug:


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19211977 - 12/01/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin

according to every study performed on the subject.


but i understand your experiences trump those studies.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr] * 1
    #19211987 - 12/01/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

In my personal experience, No, it was not that hard to quit. Just had to have the balls to endure some minor discomfort, and make a decision and stick to it.
I can understand why it's hard for people though, I was a pack a day for a couple years; a pack a day for 20 years - screw the addictiveness, that's a tough habit to break.

What made the difference for me is that I was done with them. Completely. Forever. No wiggle room. Made it easy to just forget about em, didn't count back to the day when I quit, just didn't give a fuck about them anymore. I can now hold one for a friend, hell even puff it to keep it lit and have absolutely no desire to inhale (fyi, they're fucking disgusting)  It has also helped that I've made major strides in my health in other ways since then, going to the gym etc. That stuff makes me way more happy than smoking ever did, so why go back?

I too think it's more like compulsive eating, or anyway, you have to build up the same mental strength- When your tummy grumbles, that doesn't mean you have to immediately jump up and stuff your mouth full of something. You have control over your body, you could force yourself to sit there and starve if you really wanted to. Starve the nicotine monster.


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OfflineSoulidarity
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19211992 - 12/01/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah if I even start prepping my pip, filling my jet lighters, etc etc, beginning my smoking ritual, I get a little blitzed even from just doing that. Sometimes when I get a real bad craving, even just mentally giving in to it and doing the above but not actually smoking is enough to ring my bell and prevent me needing to smoke. The brain is a crazy thing! Meth is pretty fucked though. It's like a compulsion or something where your possessed to smoke!

Dem shards tho


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19211996 - 12/01/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin

according to every study performed on the subject.


but i understand your experiences trump those studies.




I have read the same studies you have.  But I understand... clearly no scientist out there possibly has an incorrect viewpoint on the matter, and clearly every scientist and philosopher in the world has an identical concept of 'addictiveness' and agrees in every possible way on how to quantitatively assess this property from individual to individual.  :lol:

Get back to me when you want to defend your unsupported assertion rather than just blindly repeat what you read somewhere.


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Edited by deCypher (12/01/13 11:06 AM)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212001 - 12/01/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Get back to me when you want to defend your unsupported assertion rather than just blindly repeat what you read somewhere.




im defending my supported assertion with peer-reviewed studies.


so what information are you looking for, exactly?


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