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OfflineInsider
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My jars stalled
    #19211820 - 12/01/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hello everyone.

So I inoculated 4 jars at the beggining of november, for about a week I had nice steady growth, but now I have the same white myc patches I had three weeks ago. So, long story short, they stalled. What should I do? I think it might be because of poor GE, I mean my jars have 4 self healing ports on the top and a hole with polyfill but it might be too tight or something. They don't seem to be contaminated, I mean I can't see any metabolites from bacterial growth. I opened one to take a sniff and it just smells like verm. Bacteria smell like some sour-sweet and very strong penetrating stuff and it isn't the case. So what are your suggestions?

Thanks.:mushroom2:


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Offlinedaltonvz
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19211830 - 12/01/13 10:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How about some pics?


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: daltonvz]
    #19211874 - 12/01/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm guessing you are doing the PF-tek since there is verm in your jars.

PF-tek uses that verm layer ontop of the BRF as the filter, with 4 open holes in the lid.

Adding polyfill into one hole and having the verm layer is probably starving them for GE.

Unless you have a moisture content issue, I would say that is your problem.

When you're just starting out, it's best to follow your TEKs to a T, then tweak them as you go along.


Good luck:cookiemonster:


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19211901 - 12/01/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I don't think It might be an issue with the water content. Where I live I can't get whole rice flour so the best thing I could get was organic whole rye flour. It would get the mix too dry, so I added water little by little to achieve field capacity. I'm uploading pics.


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19211921 - 12/01/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I believe you can just buy brown rice and blend it in a coffee grinder.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19211952 - 12/01/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

This is the jar that grew the most


This is the lid without the polyfill and with the polyfill


The second jar.


All other jars are kinda the same. So what do you suggest?


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19211984 - 12/01/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Now I'm thinking you've either got a moisture content or nutrition problem.

Try again following your TEK closer. Make sure to get the right ingredients.

You might have to source the BRF online, but as I said before I believe you
can just grind up plain ol (preferably organic) brown rice.

Maybe someone else will chime in though, cause that's just, like, my opinion, man. :cool:


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19212004 - 12/01/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

K. Thanks for your advice Pirate. I'll check on the GE problem, if nothing changes in a couple of days, I will start again.


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OfflineChuckfinely
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19212037 - 12/01/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Look up some of the bulk grain teks. They're way easier then they seem. The second you try WBS or rye, you'll never look back :thumbup:


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19212309 - 12/01/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:
Now I'm thinking you've either got a moisture content or nutrition problem.




I disagree.  The moisture looks fine, and whole rye is excellent nutritionally.  People use rye berries all the time for grain spawn and sing its praises. 

I suspect it's probably got something to do with temperature.  How hot is the room, OP?


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19212997 - 12/01/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Insider said:
Well, I don't think It might be an issue with the water content. Where I live I can't get whole rice flour so the best thing I could get was organic whole rye flour. It would get the mix too dry, so I added water little by little to achieve field capacity. I'm uploading pics.



this is where you went wrong, the recipe is not done at field capacity it is damp at best.
field capacity is too wet which is y the recipe calls for 1 part verm 1 part water and one part flour which is nowhere near field capacity, i use twice that amount of water to cook my rice for dinner and i don't even use verm lol


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OfflineOgreLokon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: cronicr]
    #19213152 - 12/01/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:

field capacity is too wet which is y the recipe calls for 1 part verm 1 part water and one part flour which is nowhere near field capacity




2 parts verm, 1 part water, 1 part BRF


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: OgreLokon]
    #19213251 - 12/01/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Well, maybe I am not understanding what field capacity is. I meant wet enough just to be damp on contact and for a drop of water to fall when squeezed. Last time I tried PF tek I ruined it with extra water so I made sure not to make the same mistake this time. The room is cold to be honest.

Edit: it's like 60 degrees in here.


Edited by Insider (12/01/13 03:21 PM)


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19213278 - 12/01/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

P.s. I also followed the 2:1:1 ratio. Just adjusted it a bit after mixing.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19213352 - 12/01/13 03:29 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yup.  It stalled because of temperature.  Nothing is lost yet--just put them in a warmer place.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Psilicon]
    #19213389 - 12/01/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Alright, no surprise there I guess. I mean, the house is cold as heck. What do you suggest? Maybe inside a cooler with something warm inside? I read somewhere about a black trash bag, would that work?


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19213435 - 12/01/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

No, probably not.  They work well for monotubs, which produce a lot of heat of their own.  But for a bunch of stalled jars?  Seems unlikely. 

A cooler with something warm inside is better than nothing.  You could also try to find a warmer part of your house.  Attics often fit the bill, and so do the spots near furnaces, above refrigerators and so on.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.


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Offline1down5up
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Psilicon]
    #19213477 - 12/01/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)



You can get this stuff at Walmart, or most grocery stores.  Sometimes they carry different grains and flours at different places, so just look around.

Also, if you have a farmers market, or some sort of co-op store around, they'll sell it too...along with verm and Perlite....

good luck!


--------------------
~~Everything is relative~~


A Simplified Overview of Mushroom Cultivation Strategies  -  RR says  -  EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes  -  Frank's list of goodies  -  Cronicr's Goodies


No one is placed higher than another no matter race or creed or gender, we must teach forgiveness and compassion for all life.  J.L.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: 1down5up]
    #19213489 - 12/01/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Alrighht, I will put them inside a cooler to avoid dust and will take them upstairs where is warm. If i get warmer temps, in how long should I see growth again?

Also for the BRF i can get brown rice so I guess a coffee grinder is in order.


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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19220703 - 12/03/13 05:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I've read on here that grinding your own is better than the prepared stuff...so you're aces :thumbup:


--------------------
~~Everything is relative~~


A Simplified Overview of Mushroom Cultivation Strategies  -  RR says  -  EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes  -  Frank's list of goodies  -  Cronicr's Goodies


No one is placed higher than another no matter race or creed or gender, we must teach forgiveness and compassion for all life.  J.L.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19234233 - 12/05/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They should have shown some growth by now.  How are they looking?


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Psilicon]
    #19234307 - 12/05/13 10:30 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I disposed them after three days. They had a bad smell on them.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19234325 - 12/05/13 10:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:hugitout:


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Psilicon]
    #19234342 - 12/05/13 10:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yup. It's a damn shame.:frown:
I got a PC for further attempts. It might make things better.
:smile:


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OfflineKnownPown
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19234418 - 12/05/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

When I did my jars with normal half pint glass jars with metal lids, they worked great. I didnt use silicone on the innoc ports though, so I probably got better air exchange than you...but you also have to use a dry verm layer. Idk try both ways and see what's going to work.

Imo though if you're already going through all the work of using polyfil and silicone you might as well just buy some quart jars and get started on bulk...look up how frank gets shit done and begin your research!


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Offlineredfox7450
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: KnownPown]
    #19234453 - 12/05/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yup OP that's your problem. gas exchange and temperature. temperature needs to be around 80 degrees, and you don't want to cover your holes. just put a dry vermiculite layer ontop of your mixture. store them in a nice warm dark dry place and you should be good to go. better luck next round!


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: KnownPown]
    #19234459 - 12/05/13 11:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have removed the polyfill and the sillicone and will make some more jars tomorrow for another run. And yes, I have thought of trying bulk, but because of space issues and simply because I haven't made a single growth to successful completion... I will stick to pf for now.  :thanx:


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Offlineredfox7450
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19234483 - 12/05/13 11:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

smart thinking OP. better to walk before you run. :P


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Offline1down5up
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: redfox7450]
    #19241033 - 12/07/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

The boiling for 90 minutes works fine...you really don't have to get a PC if you can't afford one.  I had some glasses and jars that i knocked up with a bogus syringe, and after a month they showed no signs of any growth at all...myc or otherwise.....so that's a pretty good indication that the steam sterilization worked...at least for me it did.
If you do have access to a PC, then you're golden there....Good luck on your next one!!!


--------------------
~~Everything is relative~~


A Simplified Overview of Mushroom Cultivation Strategies  -  RR says  -  EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes  -  Frank's list of goodies  -  Cronicr's Goodies


No one is placed higher than another no matter race or creed or gender, we must teach forgiveness and compassion for all life.  J.L.


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OfflineChuckfinely
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19242653 - 12/07/13 09:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Insider said:
I have removed the polyfill and the sillicone and will make some more jars tomorrow for another run. And yes, I have thought of trying bulk, but because of space issues and simply because I haven't made a single growth to successful completion... I will stick to pf for now.  :thanx:





I did grains my very first try and it was much easier than I thought it would be. In fact, I would say its easier then brf and verm layers and everything. I tried to make a cake after a year of doing bulk, and failed like 10 jars worth.

Grains are super simple and you'll never look back:thumbup:


If you're concerned about space then you dont have to make a huge mono tub. 1 qrt jar spawned to pasteurized coco/verm into a shoe box works GREAT. I've done it multiple times and usually come out with 1-1.5oz first flush.


Just line a shoebox like it was a mono, mix 1 qrt of grain spawn to 1-2 qrts of pasteurized sub, however much it takes to fill it about 1/2" from the top. Then for the lid you just take another shoe box and either drill it like a sgfc, or make 1 large polyfil hole on each side, then simply set it on top of the bottom shoebox for fruiting. Of course you would use the snap on lid for while the bottom one is colonizing.


There was a really great shoebox tek around here a long time ago, ill see if I can find it. I think frank knows about the one im talking about, and its really great for giving grain a go in a small space:peace:


Good luck man, and keep trying till you get it. Once you see that first flush, you'll be hooked for life:noargument:


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19243301 - 12/08/13 01:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

1down5up said:
The boiling for 90 minutes works fine...you really don't have to get a PC if you can't afford one.  I had some glasses and jars that i knocked up with a bogus syringe, and after a month they showed no signs of any growth at all...myc or otherwise.....so that's a pretty good indication that the steam sterilization worked...at least for me it did.
If you do have access to a PC, then you're golden there....Good luck on your next one!!!




Thank you very much, I have bought a small pc (6qt) for very little so now I can do some stuff a little cleaner.

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
Quote:

Insider said:
I have removed the polyfill and the sillicone and will make some more jars tomorrow for another run. And yes, I have thought of trying bulk, but because of space issues and simply because I haven't made a single growth to successful completion... I will stick to pf for now.  :thanx:





I did grains my very first try and it was much easier than I thought it would be. In fact, I would say its easier then brf and verm layers and everything. I tried to make a cake after a year of doing bulk, and failed like 10 jars worth.

Grains are super simple and you'll never look back:thumbup:


If you're concerned about space then you dont have to make a huge mono tub. 1 qrt jar spawned to pasteurized coco/verm into a shoe box works GREAT. I've done it multiple times and usually come out with 1-1.5oz first flush.


Just line a shoebox like it was a mono, mix 1 qrt of grain spawn to 1-2 qrts of pasteurized sub, however much it takes to fill it about 1/2" from the top. Then for the lid you just take another shoe box and either drill it like a sgfc, or make 1 large polyfil hole on each side, then simply set it on top of the bottom shoebox for fruiting. Of course you would use the snap on lid for while the bottom one is colonizing.


There was a really great shoebox tek around here a long time ago, ill see if I can find it. I think frank knows about the one im talking about, and its really great for giving grain a go in a small space:peace:


Good luck man, and keep trying till you get it. Once you see that first flush, you'll be hooked for life:noargument:




This shoebox thing actually sounds like a very nice idea! I think I will try that very soon! Thank you very much for pointing me in that direction. A question if you care to answer: If I have no agar cultures available, can I inoculate grains with a multispore syringe?


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InvisiblePirateSwazey
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19243312 - 12/08/13 01:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Insider said:
If I have no agar cultures available, can I inoculate grains with a multispore syringe?




Absolutely.

Agar is mainly used for insuring you're working with clean cultures and selecting more powerful sub-strains.
It is probably the most powerful tool that we have, but no more necessary just because you're using grain spawn :thumbup:


--------------------
 

BULK RYE PREP  -  MY FAVORITE THREADS  -  BUILD A FLOWHOOD



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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #19243384 - 12/08/13 01:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said:
Quote:

Insider said:
If I have no agar cultures available, can I inoculate grains with a multispore syringe?




Absolutely.

Agar is mainly used for insuring you're working with clean cultures and selecting more powerful sub-strains.
It is probably the most powerful tool that we have, but no more necessary just because you're using grain spawn :thumbup:




Well, that is just perfect. I might start some grain work soon then. Let's see how it goes.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19245217 - 12/08/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Stick with small amounts of inoculant in your grain, though, and spawn small tubs.  If you're using MS, there's a good chance of contaminants even in syringes from good vendors, and the more solution that goes into a tub the higher your chances of contamination.


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OfflineInsider
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Psilicon]
    #19246019 - 12/08/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Stick with small amounts of inoculant in your grain, though, and spawn small tubs.  If you're using MS, there's a good chance of contaminants even in syringes from good vendors, and the more solution that goes into a tub the higher your chances of contamination.




What is considered a "small amount" of MS solution? 1cc? less?


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Insider]
    #19246184 - 12/08/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redfox7450 said:
yup OP that's your problem. gas exchange and temperature. temperature needs to be around 80 degrees, and you don't want to cover your holes. just put a dry vermiculite layer ontop of your mixture. store them in a nice warm dark dry place and you should be good to go. better luck next round!



Quote:

redfox7450 said:
smart thinking OP. better to walk before you run. :P



I have colonized grain jars in the mid 60s before.  The amount of work to use colonized grain for spawn is LESS than the what is required of PF cakes in a SGFC....but is cost prohibitive due to needing quart jars and a pressure cooker.
Quote:

Insider said:
I disposed them after three days. They had a bad smell on them.




Your issue was with either inoculation (dirty syringe), bad sterile technique, or improper heat treatment of the cakes prior.

Quote:

Insider said:
What is considered a "small amount" of MS solution? 1cc? less?



I have used as little as one drop per quart jar with success.  It takes time, but certainly colonizes IF you have your grain properly prepped.  I don't know what is prescribed per jar, but certainly ANYTHING that begins to grow will quickly spread.  Less is better than more. 

I see that you have a small PC, and I don't know what "jar" it can hold, but having a pressure cooker that holds a quart jar is what you need. 

I read over your post, and find it odd that every jar you did stalled/contaminated.  I can't think blaming this on ge/temps is correct.  I would be concerned that IF you flame sterilized your needle @ each jar, and did not touch it IN ANY WAY after flaming it, that there is a possible issue with the syringe.  If you inoculate other jars keep an eye out.  I have gotten syringes prior that were polluted. 

There are plenty of avenues for success from where you are right now.  I started with the PF tek, and dropped it before I ever finished making my first SGFC.  I spawned my first cakes to bulk, picked up a 16qt pc and never looked back.  No 5x daily mist/fan etc.  HOWEVER each method of success has its pros and cons.  The PF tek is designed for needles...if you get into Agar, you will realize what a non-issue needles are.

There is quite a bit of dynamics with the hobby, and in retrospect, There are more than a few users here who started with PF and very quickly moved over to agar and grain for a reason.  It is amazing how the hobby shapes the individual.  Agar puts you in control of growth and makes you the front seat driver for a contaminant free colonization.


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Re: My jars stalled [Re: Chuckfinely]
    #19246198 - 12/08/13 05:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chuckfinely said:
Look up some of the bulk grain teks. They're way easier then they seem. The second you try WBS or rye, you'll never look back :thumbup:



I'm in full agreement I've never done PF cakes but it seems like most the problems I see people have on here is with cakes. :mushroom2:
Bulk grain is the shit.


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Re: My jars stalled [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #19246365 - 12/08/13 06:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
I read over your post, and find it odd that every jar you did stalled/contaminated.  I can't think blaming this on ge/temps is correct.  I would be concerned that IF you flame sterilized your needle @ each jar, and did not touch it IN ANY WAY after flaming it, that there is a possible issue with the syringe.  If you inoculate other jars keep an eye out.  I have gotten syringes prior that were polluted. 





Yes, indeed I found it odd too. That's why I made a little experiment earlier with 3 1 pint glass jars. Long story short, they all contam'd (same ugly smell  :puke: ) even without using a syringe. Therefore I concluded that it was not the innoc procedure but the time I was steaming them (1hour). That's why I decided to buy a small PC and do it all again but correctly now. And yes, I am thinking of moving to grains now. They seem a lot less trouble, my only issue is that I have not a lot of space, that's why even with grains I am going to go the "small amounts" route.  :aweohyou:

Also I like agar work a lot :heart:. I've done it in school and I loved it the first day I did it.


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