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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine?
#19210627 - 11/30/13 11:32 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've gone through phases of smoking cigarettes daily for a while, maybe a month or two, but never had any withdrawal symptoms when I would stop due to money or whatever.
No matter how many times I go back to cigs (or hookah more so lately) I never feel the slightest bit 'hooked.' To me they are 100% non addictive.
But then other people act like its the end of their world to stop smoking cigs for a while. They say "I have a headache," and I'm sitting here with throbbing joints from heroin withdrawals going "really? you have a headache? poor baby."
thoughts? obviously it affects some more than others
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tripp23
Kratom Freak



Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 4,030
Loc: Florida, US
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19210636 - 11/30/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
-------------------- Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!

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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: tripp23]
#19210640 - 11/30/13 11:36 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
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ComputerTekGuy
Teh Awesome



Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 1,150
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19210643 - 11/30/13 11:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes and No. I never go through any widthdraw unless i'm drinking, then i crave one. I used to smoke up to 2 packs a day. Now i dont usually have one unless i'm stressing or have anxiety.... or drinking. When I drink I can chain smoke a pack, then go two days without touching one.
It's very different for different people. I'd compare it to compulsive eating than any other drug. It seems to me the addiction is almost like food vs alcohol,opiates,meth,weed.
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Shroomopotamus
Happy Mushrooming




Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 18,757
Loc: Funkotron
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: tripp23]
#19210647 - 11/30/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've quit multiple times. It's a bitch to quit. The first few days/week absolutely sucks. My most recent time quitting however, was on 4 drops of liquid LSD. One of the most introspective trips I have ever had. I had no troubles quitting this time. It was almost as if the L had completely taken over the part of my brain that normally had me craving cigarettes. The only times I ever crave them are when I'm drinking or really stressed. Jamaican dog wood helps me with alcohol cig cravings tremendously though. Just discovered this a few nights ago.
-------------------- * Live by the mushroom, die by the mushroom
    This is a trap! A trap! You are all busted! Busted! You fools!
If a time comes where I fail to appear I've been abducted and I will miss you all Please smile and pet puppies as often as possible Be happy Be nice (<3);}
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ComputerTekGuy
Teh Awesome



Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 1,150
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: ComputerTekGuy]
#19210648 - 11/30/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Jamaican dog wood"
Would like to hear more
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Galvie_Flu



Registered: 06/30/02
Posts: 6,632
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Shroomopotamus]
#19210914 - 12/01/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i've quit cigs after a long hiatus from tripping, but still used my ecig, now I'm cig free, except for an e-cig, harder to quit than regular cigs I bet. You just cant win. 
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Soulidarity
With Your Halo Slippin . . .



Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 17,617
Loc: Atlantis
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19210949 - 12/01/13 01:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i dont think its that hard to quit cigs, i just recently "kind of" did. i wasn't heavily addicted or anything, but i didn't smoke for a week (which i know doesn't sound like much) but it was pretty easy. i only smoked for about 2 months before that, so its not like i was massively addicted or anything, but still. the cravings i experienced weren't really that bad.
--------------------
  R.I.P. WoodRuss67, Todcasil, TheMerryIguana, The Rompus, Lord Senate. [/url]
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cacharstar
Strange is good...


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4,014
Loc: The West Coast
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Soulidarity]
#19210993 - 12/01/13 01:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine?
   yes.  
I have an e cig and smoke a pack a day
--------------------
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Insidious
Stranger


Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 43
Loc: Ontario
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: cacharstar]
#19211015 - 12/01/13 01:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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For me quitting isn't too difficult, it's staying off them that's the issue... It's just so easy to pick-up the habit right where you left off after weeks/months even years of being smoke free...
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teamkiller
ghetto drama whore



Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 8,806
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Insidious]
#19211149 - 12/01/13 03:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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i'm pretty suprised there are so many people in this thread who aren't easily addicted to cigs.
They've found the genes that seem to control it, and its genetic.
cigs are very addictive for most people, thats why almost no one quits, and the people that do quit smoke for about 20 years before doing so.
Thats why starving people will trade food for cigs.
when i try and quit i lose all control of my brain and emotions.
--------------------
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Everlong
King of the Neckbeards


Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 9,087
Loc: Poconos
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211152 - 12/01/13 03:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it's the habit of smoking that becomes the biggest issue, at least for me.
I've become so accustomed to smoking after or during activities such as eating, sleeping, waking up, sex, video games, smoking weed, drinking booze, work break, artsy time, etc. I basically feel like it's become a part of my reward path in my brain, and I associate it with feeling accomplished or busy. So when I try to quit, I find something missing in every routine I partake in during the day.
Also, it doesn't help that it's socially accepted to be a smoker.
Do I get headaches? No way. Do I get all and eventually give up? Yessir. 
Plus I eat more food when I try to quit smoking, and I used to be a chubby kid so I don't want to get fat again.
--------------------
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kakashi68
Connoiseur of Illicit Substances


Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 2,116
Loc: STRAYA
Last seen: 9 days, 23 hours
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Everlong]
#19211167 - 12/01/13 03:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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if they really want people to quit stop all this shit campaigns and plain packing shit and get to the real problem, there avalible at just about every shop, petrol station, supermarket, liquor shop, milk bar ect.
-------------------- You know, just sometimes in between the first cigarette with coffee in the morning to that 400th glass of cornershop piss at 3am--you do sometimes look at yourself and think--this is fantastic. I'm in heaven. -Bernard Black
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aZombie
Yugen



Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 1,572
Loc: CactiNation
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Everlong]
#19211170 - 12/01/13 03:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, but its completely mental though. I feel like Im more addicted now because I dont tell myself, "Im not gonna get addicted to this" after every cig.
--------------------
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highc
creator



Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3,592
Loc: maryland
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: aZombie]
#19211191 - 12/01/13 04:17 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Only read title but yes!
--------------------
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vinsue
Grand Old Fart



Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 17,953
Loc: The Garden State(NJ)
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211339 - 12/01/13 06:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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They are addictive, but not that difficult to quit if you just put your heart into it. I've quit a few times over the past 40 years ago, but 2 years ago I just decided to quit once and for all, and I did. Tobacco free over 2 years now, and don't miss it one bit.
Fuck that poison... . . .
--------------------
"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ... Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) . ...
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: cacharstar]
#19211381 - 12/01/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
cacharstar said:
Quote:
Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine?
I have an e cig and smoke a pack a day
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Into The Woods]
#19211432 - 12/01/13 07:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's easier for young people. If I don't have a cigarette I'll be more bored than anything.
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211523 - 12/01/13 08:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211628 - 12/01/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
No offense dude but nicotine is a weak substance. Maybe druggies just have a better time with it.
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: King Klick]
#19211633 - 12/01/13 09:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
King Klick said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
No offense dude but nicotine is a weak substance. Maybe druggies just have a better time with it. 
and mushrooms are a weak substance compared to LSD
micrograms compared to milligrams?
what comparison are you actually trying to make?
calling something "a weak substance" actually provided me almost no information about what you were actually trying to say.
try again buddy
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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NotTheDevil
Transhuman


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 5,436
Loc: US
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211667 - 12/01/13 09:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
King Klick said: []k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
No offense dude but nicotine is a weak substance. Maybe druggies just have a better time with it. 
and mushrooms are a weak substance compared to LSD
micrograms compared to milligrams?
what comparison are you actually trying to make?
calling something "a weak substance" actually provided me almost no information about what you were actually trying to say.
try again buddy
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
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King Klick
That Guy Everyone Knows



Registered: 11/13/11
Posts: 7,267
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 4
#19211673 - 12/01/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You're a special kinda stupid aint ya?
-------------------- Your god is dead, and I killed him. When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul
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The Self
No Thing

Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 145
Loc: Between Space and Time
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: King Klick] 1
#19211694 - 12/01/13 09:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, it's incredibly easy! You actually have to do less than you would normally have to do.
-------------------- Dualistic tendency is my enemy and is definitely all wrong nothing is one thing that someone rarely sees despite the fact that it frees...
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19211739 - 12/01/13 09:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?
it's not.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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NotTheDevil
Transhuman


Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 5,436
Loc: US
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211762 - 12/01/13 09:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?
it's not.
Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.
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berdinwall
<3 whooooshhh


Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 4,276
Loc: West Virginia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19211816 - 12/01/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Im like OP. I've probably smoked well over 5000 cigarettes in my life since age 18. Im 25 now and not addicted at all...and never was. though I do crave cigarettes when Im drinking or nodding on some oxy
--------------------
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The Self
No Thing

Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 145
Loc: Between Space and Time
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: berdinwall] 1
#19211828 - 12/01/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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As I remember, there is truly nothing like a cup of coffee, a cigarette and a nice warm nod.
-------------------- Dualistic tendency is my enemy and is definitely all wrong nothing is one thing that someone rarely sees despite the fact that it frees...
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19211849 - 12/01/13 10:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?
it's not.
Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.
they dont get addicted because it feels good.
else we would all be addicted to sex.
addiction has already been figured out. and the intensity of emotions felt on the drug do not correlate to the addictiveness of said drug.
else we would all be addicted to DMT
keep diggin that hole. youre almost up to your neck.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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berdinwall
<3 whooooshhh


Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 4,276
Loc: West Virginia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: The Self]
#19211851 - 12/01/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's all I want for Christmas
--------------------
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211862 - 12/01/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
all capitals very? no no no
Heroin or alcohol i would consider VERY addictive. nicotine is childs play dude.
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Magicman69
All About the Benjamins



Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: berdinwall]
#19211866 - 12/01/13 10:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Irritability is the withdrawal symptoms and cravings. Ive heard people say nicotine is more mentally addicting than any other drug
Edited by Magicman69 (12/01/13 10:27 AM)
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: berdinwall]
#19211871 - 12/01/13 10:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
berdinwall said: Im like OP. I've probably smoked well over 5000 cigarettes in my life since age 18. Im 25 now and not addicted at all...and never was. though I do crave cigarettes when Im drinking or nodding on some oxy
isn't it awesome?
I'm practically unable to become addicted to coke too since more than 2 lines gets me helllla congested for the rest of the day.
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211876 - 12/01/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again. 
Its a weird mental addiction. No physical withdrawls, you just think about it.
thats pretty much how i see it. I was thinking maybe i was being ignorant though
that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
all capitals very? no no no
Heroin or alcohol i would consider VERY addictive. nicotine is childs play dude.
ok buddy.
Quote:
Nicotine. Although studies vary, it is generally believed that over 30% of those individuals who use nicotine for a period of time become addicted.
Quote:
Caffeine. Perhaps another shocker for some, Caffeine ranks high on the list, with almost 30% of casual users becoming addicted.
Quote:
Heroin. Now, an illegal drug makes its first appearance on the list. Although one-hundred years ago Heroin was used for a variety of medicinal purposes, the medical community soon realized that people were becoming addicted in record numbers. The drug was taken off of the market, but illicit use remains rampant to this day – destroying lives of those from all walks of life, all over the world. 25% of those who use Heroin for a period of time become addicted to the drug.
Quote:
Alcohol. The legalized drug with potentially devastating consequences, alcohol reduces the ability of your brain to function properly. Addictive for 15% of those who use it regularly, alcohol is especially problematic for young people, where binge drinking and dangerous alcohol-related activities are prevalent.
you guys have access to the same internet that i do.
why are you making up things?
go look it up for yourself.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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The Self
No Thing

Registered: 11/20/12
Posts: 145
Loc: Between Space and Time
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Magicman69]
#19211878 - 12/01/13 10:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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What withdrawal? You mean the few hours after you quit where you're like, "man I could really go for a cig". 'Cause I never got the shakes, hot and cold sweats, flu like symptoms reflective of real noticeable withdrawals of hard drugs.
If you're gonna complain about cigarette withdrawals, seriously man up.
-------------------- Dualistic tendency is my enemy and is definitely all wrong nothing is one thing that someone rarely sees despite the fact that it frees...
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Magicman69
All About the Benjamins



Registered: 05/29/13
Posts: 6,876
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211879 - 12/01/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fuck cigs, Vape or bust! E-Cig mafia in this bitch
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: The Self]
#19211890 - 12/01/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Self said: 'Cause I never got the shakes, hot and cold sweats, flu like symptoms reflective of real noticeable withdrawals of hard drugs.
so if it didn't happen to you
it didn't happen to anyone.
good logic.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211893 - 12/01/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco. The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half. I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past. 
Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor. Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19211898 - 12/01/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco. The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half. I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past. 
Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor. Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.
the withdrawals are vastly different.
the addiction uses the same mechanisms.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211899 - 12/01/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
tripp23 said: its all in their heads. i've quit many times without "withdrawls". It's just.. one day i wake up and just smoke one and start again.  that is ignorant.
nicotine is VERY addictive.
all capitals very? no no no
Heroin or alcohol i would consider VERY addictive. nicotine is childs play dude.
ok buddy.
Quote:
Nicotine. Although studies vary, it is generally believed that over 30% of those individuals who use nicotine for a period of time become addicted.
Quote:
Caffeine. Perhaps another shocker for some, Caffeine ranks high on the list, with almost 30% of casual users becoming addicted.
Quote:
Heroin. Now, an illegal drug makes its first appearance on the list. Although one-hundred years ago Heroin was used for a variety of medicinal purposes, the medical community soon realized that people were becoming addicted in record numbers. The drug was taken off of the market, but illicit use remains rampant to this day – destroying lives of those from all walks of life, all over the world. 25% of those who use Heroin for a period of time become addicted to the drug.
Quote:
Alcohol. The legalized drug with potentially devastating consequences, alcohol reduces the ability of your brain to function properly. Addictive for 15% of those who use it regularly, alcohol is especially problematic for young people, where binge drinking and dangerous alcohol-related activities are prevalent.
you guys have access to the same internet that i do.
why are you making up things?
go look it up for yourself.
thats your argument? I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.
I'll assume that more people get 'addicted' to caffeine and nictone because: 1) you can get either ANYWHERE 2) they are cheaper by a longshot 3) socially acceptable
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211902 - 12/01/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.
I'll assume .....
1) why not?
2) dont do that.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211915 - 12/01/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.
I'll assume .....
1) why not?
2) dont do that.
i already listed my reasons.
my assumptions were more or less based on facts
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Soulidarity
With Your Halo Slippin . . .



Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 17,617
Loc: Atlantis
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: NotTheDevil]
#19211929 - 12/01/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?
it's not.
Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.
Nope, people smoke crack because it feels good, believe me
--------------------
  R.I.P. WoodRuss67, Todcasil, TheMerryIguana, The Rompus, Lord Senate. [/url]
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211930 - 12/01/13 10:39 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: i already listed my reasons.
you didnt.
Quote:
rbalzer said: thats your argument? I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.
Quote:
rbalzer said:my assumptions were more or less based on facts
go ahead and post those for me.
because i've looked around quite a bit and i dont think they exist.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Soulidarity]
#19211933 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Soulidarity said:
Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
NotTheDevil said:
he's talking about the feeling it gives.
so how is that relevant to the addictive properties?
it's not.
Your right people don't do crack because it feels good, they do it because its addictive.
Nope, people smoke crack because it feels good, believe me
right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.
but there are none as far as i know
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211935 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco. The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half. I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past. 
Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor. Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.
the withdrawals are vastly different.
the addiction uses the same mechanisms.
All addictions use the same 'mechanism' if you generalize enough--they consist of a behavior that when performed, yields a pleasurable feeling, usually involving the release of dopamine and/or endorphins. This pleasurable feeling then provokes the person in question to repeat the behavior over and over again to try to feel that pleasure again.
This does not mean that heroin and nicotine share nearly the same level of addictiveness or risk to the drug user.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211938 - 12/01/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.
but there are none as far as i know
how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.
see: DMT see: LSD see: peyote
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19211943 - 12/01/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I've never experienced any kind of physical withdrawal from quitting tobacco. The psychological craving to light up after quitting, though, is a bitch and a half. I've resorted to fishing packs out of the garbage that I've thrown away when I've tried to quit in the past. 
Now I've switched to an e-cigarette so at least I'm doing my lungs and my wallet a favor. Wouldn't say it's harder to quit than opiates, though--needing your fix because you'll get actually physically sick without it is a far cry from just really, really wanting a drag of nicotine.
the withdrawals are vastly different.
the addiction uses the same mechanisms.
All addictions use the same 'mechanism' if you generalize enough--they consist of a behavior that when performed, yields a pleasurable feeling, usually involving the release of dopamine and/or endorphins. This pleasurable feeling then provokes the person in question to repeat the behavior over and over again to try to feel that pleasure again.
This does not mean that heroin and nicotine share nearly the same level of addictiveness or risk to the drug user.
actually thats wrong.
what you described is a simple pavlovian response.
drug addiction is much more complicated than that. it has to do with these chemicals being similar to neurotransmitters.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211950 - 12/01/13 10:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: i already listed my reasons.
you didnt.
Quote:
rbalzer said: thats your argument? I can't even regard those statistics with sincerity.
Quote:
rbalzer said:my assumptions were more or less based on facts
go ahead and post those for me.
because i've looked around quite a bit and i dont think they exist.
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: right? if there was ONE drug that had only addictive properties and no feel good properties I might be more inclined to believe koolaid.
but there are none as far as i know
how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.
see: DMT see: LSD see: peyote
so you're saying they have nothing to do with eachother? why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19211957 - 12/01/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?
youre straw-manning so hard.
people use these drugs because they feel good.
people get addicted to these drugs because of their addictive properties
the addictive properties are not relevant to the pleasure properties.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211959 - 12/01/13 10:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: it has to do with these chemicals being similar to neurotransmitters.
No, you think? 
There was nothing incorrect in my statement. Taking pleasurable, addictive drugs does promote the release of dopamine and/or endorphins, in addition to the drugs themselves sometimes acting similarly to these neurotransmitters themselves and activating the same brain regions.
Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine. Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19211963 - 12/01/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine. Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.
correct.
and none of those activities are addictive, in the least.
so how did that help you?
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211969 - 12/01/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: why would people smoke an addictive substance if it did Nothing for them?
youre straw-manning so hard.
people use these drugs because they feel good.
people get addicted to these drugs because of their addictive properties
the addictive properties are not relevant to the pleasure properties.
finally a logical statement. I needed to see all that together to finally understand what you've been tryinggg to say this whole time.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211974 - 12/01/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: I needed to see all that together to finally understand what you've been tryinggg to say this whole time.
sounds like a personal problem.
Quote:
k00laid said: how good it feels is irrelevant to how addictive it is.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211975 - 12/01/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Hell, even the mere ritual of prepping a shot/getting out a pipe will trigger the anticipatory release of dopamine. Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, honey.
correct.
and none of those activities are addictive, in the least.
so how did that help you?

Kudos for missing my point entirely. All I was rebutting was what seemed to be your original contention--that nicotine was at least as addictive as heroin, or even in the same league of addictiveness. If you weren't implying this, I apologize for the misconstrual.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19211977 - 12/01/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
according to every study performed on the subject.
but i understand your experiences trump those studies.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 7,855
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#19211987 - 12/01/13 10:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my personal experience, No, it was not that hard to quit. Just had to have the balls to endure some minor discomfort, and make a decision and stick to it. I can understand why it's hard for people though, I was a pack a day for a couple years; a pack a day for 20 years - screw the addictiveness, that's a tough habit to break.
What made the difference for me is that I was done with them. Completely. Forever. No wiggle room. Made it easy to just forget about em, didn't count back to the day when I quit, just didn't give a fuck about them anymore. I can now hold one for a friend, hell even puff it to keep it lit and have absolutely no desire to inhale (fyi, they're fucking disgusting) It has also helped that I've made major strides in my health in other ways since then, going to the gym etc. That stuff makes me way more happy than smoking ever did, so why go back?
I too think it's more like compulsive eating, or anyway, you have to build up the same mental strength- When your tummy grumbles, that doesn't mean you have to immediately jump up and stuff your mouth full of something. You have control over your body, you could force yourself to sit there and starve if you really wanted to. Starve the nicotine monster.
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Soulidarity
With Your Halo Slippin . . .



Registered: 07/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19211992 - 12/01/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah if I even start prepping my pip, filling my jet lighters, etc etc, beginning my smoking ritual, I get a little blitzed even from just doing that. Sometimes when I get a real bad craving, even just mentally giving in to it and doing the above but not actually smoking is enough to ring my bell and prevent me needing to smoke. The brain is a crazy thing! Meth is pretty fucked though. It's like a compulsion or something where your possessed to smoke!
Dem shards tho
--------------------
  R.I.P. WoodRuss67, Todcasil, TheMerryIguana, The Rompus, Lord Senate. [/url]
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19211996 - 12/01/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
according to every study performed on the subject.
but i understand your experiences trump those studies.
I have read the same studies you have. But I understand... clearly no scientist out there possibly has an incorrect viewpoint on the matter, and clearly every scientist and philosopher in the world has an identical concept of 'addictiveness' and agrees in every possible way on how to quantitatively assess this property from individual to individual. 
Get back to me when you want to defend your unsupported assertion rather than just blindly repeat what you read somewhere.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
Edited by deCypher (12/01/13 11:06 AM)
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212001 - 12/01/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Get back to me when you want to defend your unsupported assertion rather than just blindly repeat what you read somewhere.
im defending my supported assertion with peer-reviewed studies.
so what information are you looking for, exactly?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 10,864
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212006 - 12/01/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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I smoke because I've been doing it for so long that if I stop, I feel like something is missing in my day to day routine, I feel like I need to find something to compensate the feeling for which there is nothing quite like smoking. It relieves stress, it helps me to cope with a monotonous lifestyle and because smoking withdrawal is a bitch. I'm not proud of it, I know I'm going to have to quit at some point but I don't because it's the most relaxing, rejuvenating part of my day and I've been used to it for so long.
Yes, it's addictive, in every sense of the word. Yes, it really is that hard to quit.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212008 - 12/01/13 10:56 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
according to every study performed on the subject.
but i understand your experiences trump those studies.
same addictiveness, I'll agree just because you'll never drop it.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212010 - 12/01/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: I'll agree just because you'll never drop it i have no evidence to support my claims.
i fixed that for ya
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Soulidarity
With Your Halo Slippin . . .



Registered: 07/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212013 - 12/01/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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You can't out argue cypher dude, he is like Jesus
--------------------
  R.I.P. WoodRuss67, Todcasil, TheMerryIguana, The Rompus, Lord Senate. [/url]
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Soulidarity]
#19212022 - 12/01/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Soulidarity said: You can't out argue cypher dude, he is like Jesus
he just told me that peer reviewed scientific studies are not good enough support for my assertions.
yeah.....
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Soulidarity
With Your Halo Slippin . . .



Registered: 07/15/12
Posts: 17,617
Loc: Atlantis
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212029 - 12/01/13 11:00 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Watch him pull some Jedi mind tricks shit tho
--------------------
  R.I.P. WoodRuss67, Todcasil, TheMerryIguana, The Rompus, Lord Senate. [/url]
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212034 - 12/01/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: I'll agree just because you'll never drop it i have no evidence to support my claims.
i fixed that for ya

I don't like the studies you cited because they likely didn't consider some important factors.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr] 2
#19212036 - 12/01/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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There are inherent difficulties in objectively comparing how "addictive" one drug is to another. Other than speculation, no such study exists.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212039 - 12/01/13 11:01 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
Soulidarity said: You can't out argue cypher dude, he is like Jesus
he just told me that peer reviewed scientific studies are not good enough support for my assertions.
yeah.....
like he said, not every study, simply because it is peer reviewed, means it is factual.
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212048 - 12/01/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: Other than speculation, no such study exists.
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Juicin
Stranger

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 897
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212049 - 12/01/13 11:04 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Go pick up a real habit, start smoking
After a few years quitting isn't an attractive option. Even after you're done binging on other things. For me it was the bottle. I can only imagine what a heroin user would feel like trying to kick opiates and nicotine
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212064 - 12/01/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
badchad said: Other than speculation, no such study exists.
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
maybe find more than one study?
repeating the same statistics from the same study doesn't seem to help your case
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad] 1
#19212067 - 12/01/13 11:07 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: There are inherent difficulties in objectively comparing how "addictive" one drug is to another. Other than speculation, no such study exists.
Exactly. In addition, a scientific study of addiction commences testing of its hypothesis with a predetermined philosophical definition of 'addictiveness'. Without a solid consensus of this concept's definition, any study you attempt to use to bolster your assertions is effectively useless.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212071 - 12/01/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
badchad said: There are inherent difficulties in objectively comparing how "addictive" one drug is to another. Other than speculation, no such study exists.
Exactly.
i thought that was well said too.
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212086 - 12/01/13 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Without a solid consensus of this concept's definition, any study you attempt to use to bolster your assertions is effectively useless.
you think the medical community doesn't have a solid consensus of what addiction is?
what the fuck is wrong with the people in this thread
this stuff was figured out a long time ago....
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212090 - 12/01/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
badchad said: Other than speculation, no such study exists.
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
maybe find more than one study?
repeating the same statistics from the same study doesn't seem to help your case
so then ill find a study that says 29% and 20% respectively
then ill find one that says 20% and 15% respectively
and then you'll keep making the same straw-man arguments.
instead of attacking the facts themselves you keep attacking things around the facts, trying to discount the facts.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212092 - 12/01/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Without a solid consensus of this concept's definition, any study you attempt to use to bolster your assertions is effectively useless.
you think the medical community doesn't have a solid consensus of what addiction is?
what the fuck is wrong with the people in this thread
this stuff was figured out a long time ago....
The medical community may have a consensus as to what the state of addiction is (even then you'll run into differences of opinion and various grey areas/discrepancies relating to different people defining substance abuse differently from addiction), but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212096 - 12/01/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: The medical community may have a consensus as to what addiction is, but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.
it can easily be ranked by percentage of users becoming addicted.
which has been done
and i posted it.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212100 - 12/01/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: The medical community may have a consensus as to what addiction is, but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.
it can easily be ranked by percentage of users becoming addicted.
which has been done
and i posted it.
so, some people don't buy the study results and some do.
Maybe its time for a new approach..
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212105 - 12/01/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: The medical community may have a consensus as to what addiction is, but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.
it can easily be ranked by percentage of users becoming addicted.
which has been done
and i posted it.
so, some people don't buy the study results and some do.
Maybe its time for a new approach..
anecdotes from the online mushroom community is not the next best approach.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212110 - 12/01/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: The medical community may have a consensus as to what addiction is, but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.
it can easily be ranked by percentage of users becoming addicted.
which has been done
and i posted it.
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly? Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed? Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future. Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time? How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify? Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily? Or weekly? Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die? I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction. 
Sorry, but you're still not providing evidence of any medical OR scientific consensus, and what's more--you won't find any. Try arguing for a solid philosophical definition of addiction before invoking whatever study you originally cherry-picked to support your claims.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212116 - 12/01/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeahh, they should rank the intensity of the addiction too. in which case we would see where heroin stands in reality.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212118 - 12/01/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212126 - 12/01/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: yeahh, they should rank the intensity of the addiction withdrawals too. in which case we would see where heroin stands in reality.
if we change a word then we can rank heroin higher than nicotine.
but then we would rank it lower than alcohol
alcohol withdrawals can kill you
opiate withdrawals wont kill you, but the dehydration might.
benzo withdrawals can kill you
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212132 - 12/01/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.
DSM 4 is grossly outdated..
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212144 - 12/01/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.
DSM 4 is grossly outdated..
Quote:
The threshold for substance use disorder diagnosis in DSM-5 is set at two or more criteria. This is a change from DSM-IV, where abuse required a threshold of one or more criteria be met, and three or more for DSM-IV substance dependence.
HUGE changes
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deCypher



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212147 - 12/01/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.

Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another. Thanks for dodging the entire rest of my questions, though.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212151 - 12/01/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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propose your own criteria then
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.

Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another.
also, i did
percentage of users that become addicted is a very logical measurement of the addictiveness of a drug.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212153 - 12/01/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
Quote:
DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria
the same way everyone else does.
DSM 4 is grossly outdated..
Quote:
The threshold for substance use disorder diagnosis in DSM-5 is set at two or more criteria. This is a change from DSM-IV, where abuse required a threshold of one or more criteria be met, and three or more for DSM-IV substance dependence.
HUGE changes
I'm not familiar with the entire thing, mainly parts about depression disorders I remembered being out dated.
I shouldn't have assumed it was ALL out dated, but how long ago did that thing even come out?
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212165 - 12/01/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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let me just sum this entire thread up.
k00laid: well the science we have access to right now says nicotine is just as addictive as heroin
shroomery: well that science is wrong
k00laid: i dont think it is
shroomery: we know more than the scientific community, k00laid. stop being such a sheep.
k00laid: wat...
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212170 - 12/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: propose your own criteria then
Quote:
deCypher said: Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another.
also, i did
percentage of users that become addicted is a very logical measurement of the addictiveness of a drug.

Please refer back to my previous post for a series of questions that you ignored that provide a list of potential reasons why "percentage of users that become addicted" is a hopelessly ill-defined and ultimately arbitrary concept.
Quote:
deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly? Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed? Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future. Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time? How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify? Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily? Or weekly? Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die? I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction. 
Sorry, but you're still not providing evidence of any medical OR scientific consensus, and what's more--you won't find any. Try arguing for a solid philosophical definition of addiction before invoking whatever study you originally cherry-picked to support your claims.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212171 - 12/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: let me just sum this entire thread up.
k00laid: well the science we have access to right now says nicotine is just as addictive as heroin
shroomery: well that science is wrong
k00laid: i dont think it is
shroomery: we know more than the scientific community, k00laid. stop being such a sheep.
k00laid: wat...
way to reduce everything we've said into "science is wrong"
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 2
#19212174 - 12/01/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
The classic study examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam. In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent. STUDY.
So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc. So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained. Or, in other words:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The medical community may have a consensus as to what the state of addiction is (even then you'll run into differences of opinion and various grey areas/discrepancies relating to different people defining substance abuse differently from addiction), but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness. 
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (12/01/13 11:32 AM)
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Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212178 - 12/01/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Honestly sometimes studies and testing drugs on rats is not the way to go. If you want to know which is the most addictive I believe that user experience and anecdotes may actually be more useful. I want a guy who has done crack, meth, heroin and nicotine to tell me his/ her experience with the substances. Simply stating that X percent of people become addicted to a substance they use does not take all the factors into account. I could tell you a large percentage of caffeine users become addicted to the drug, due to availability, but that doesn't mean quitting a caffeine habit is tougher than quitting a heroin addiction even though less heroin addicts become addicted.
Based on what I have read online, crack seems to be addictive the night/ days after you do it, but after you reach a certain point it's fairly easy to return to your normal lifestyle. Many people would contend that meth is a very powerful psychological addiction but has no significant physical withdrawals that force you to tweak. Heroin on the other hand, has a strong psychological pull and an intense physical addiction that makes it one of the hardest to quit. Finally, nicotine has a very strong psychological pull. The act of smoking itself is very addictive. The availability, social acceptance, lack of strong high associated with it, makes it very easy for people to continue using. It also has withdrawals and mental cravings/ associations to the effects and act of smoking that make it a very strong habit to quit. I have no idea where it ranks in my list in between crack, meth and heroin because I don't smoke. I'm going to go out on a limb and say nictoine is the most addictive of that group three but not the hardest to quit if that makes sense. Many people continue the compulsion of addiction with cigarettes, which is taking a drug, feeling good and repeating that behaviour over and over. It is easy to do this because of the many factors I listed. You will not see nearly as many crack, heroin and meth addicts going hard at it for years because of one reason or another. You will see many cigarette smokers going their entire lives. This is precisely what makes it the most addictive and not a good habit to start. The addiction does not come close to competing with the heroin withdrawals but that is only one component of what makes drugs addictive.
There you go. No peer studies, no rat tests. Just basing it off of logic. Is that so hard to do?
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
Edited by Bitter Cactus (12/01/13 11:32 AM)
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212182 - 12/01/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
The classic study examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam. In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent. STUDY.
So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc. So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained.

Not to mention provide some kind of logical justification for their particular list of criteria for judging addictiveness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Posts: 19,636
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212184 - 12/01/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed? Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future. Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time? How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify? Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily? Or weekly? Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die? I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction.
these questions?
i answered that.
they used the DSM 4 to diagnose substance dependence.
do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212189 - 12/01/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?
No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out.
Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (12/01/13 11:34 AM)
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212200 - 12/01/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted
it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin
The classic study examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam. In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent. STUDY.
So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc. So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained. Or, in other words:
Quote:
deCypher said:
The medical community may have a consensus as to what the state of addiction is (even then you'll run into differences of opinion and various grey areas/discrepancies relating to different people defining substance abuse differently from addiction), but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness. 
so how do you overcome that?
more tests. if they added nicotine to that test, the results would be comparable to the other studies
in that, nicotine would have a higher rate of addiction
rate of addiction in users is very logical in deducing how addictive a substance is
if we want to nit pick about individual methods for determining rate of addiction, we certainly can do that
but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
how we determine rate of addiction is what we are debating.
rate of addiction is the only information that provides a conclusion
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deCypher



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Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212202 - 12/01/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?
No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out.
Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.
Yep. I wouldn't mind koolaid's use of the DSM to support his argument, if only he would provide some kind of logical reasoning that supports using whatever arbitrary definition of addictiveness he chooses to employ, rather than just use a fallacious appeal to authority and refuse to question the definition of the very concepts that are at the heart of this debate.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#19212206 - 12/01/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Bitter Cactus said: I could tell you a large percentage of caffeine users become addicted to the drug, due to availability, but that doesn't mean quitting a caffeine habit is tougher than quitting a heroin addiction even though less heroin addicts become addicted.
you are comparing withdrawal
not addictive potential.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212208 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?
No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out.
Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.
Yep. I wouldn't mind koolaid's use of the DSM to support his argument, if only he would provide some kind of logical reasoning that supports using whatever arbitrary definition of addictiveness he chooses to employ.
you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?
really??
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212210 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212214 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212218 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?
really??
Yeah, really. Sorry, but if the DSM says that (for example) every child who displays hyperactivity necessarily has ADHD, and I argue for that position, I'm not gonna be flabbergasted if someone doesn't just accept the Absolute Truth of the DSM's proclamations as veritable gospel.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad] 1
#19212220 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
And after how many uses? 1 use? two uses? After how many years? What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits? What if they use for a month or tow, then stop?
All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them. More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


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Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212224 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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if we dont use the DSM we wont get any meaningful results
only anecdotes.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212226 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin
Sigh. You almost were on the right track. You are using ill-defined terms, which muddies up the argument. What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
Quote:
badchad said: "Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
And after how many uses? 1 use? two uses? After how many years? What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits? What if they use for a month or tow, then stop?
All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them. More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.
Mhm.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212228 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: "Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
what would you suggest we use instead?
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212229 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212231 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212234 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
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deCypher



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Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212236 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
Did you even read the study you're using as support? Serious question. Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 2
#19212239 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212243 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 2
#19212246 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
No. No its not.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212249 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
Did you even read the study you're using as support? Serious question. Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.
yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212252 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
No. No its not.
care to elaborate?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212259 - 12/01/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212261 - 12/01/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
based on the DSM 4 criteria
i can post a link if you cant find it on your own.
and the logical justification for using the DSM 4 is because the entire medical community uses D the DSM 4.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212262 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212263 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
care to elaborate?
Reviewers see the exact manuscript that is (eventually) published in final form. The materials and methods section typically consists of a brief paragraph stating: "Subjects were screened for DSM-4 criteria for substance dependence".
That's it. Reviewers don't really have an idea of how the DSM was administered and/or interpreted.
For example how does one define "continued use despite harm".
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212268 - 12/01/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
based on the DSM 4 criteria
i can post a link if you cant find it on your own.
and the logical justification for using the DSM 4 is because the entire medical community uses D the DSM 4.
Hooray! You would have fit in well in the Catholic Church's priesthood back in the Middle Ages.
"Welp, the Sun revolves around the Earth because every respectable priest in-the-know says so."
Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority. Not to mention I'm not asking what the logical justification is for using the DSM IV. I'm asking what the logical justification is for assuming that criteria was valid.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212272 - 12/01/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
well that does make sense.
but caffeine users aren't self-selected. often times nicotine users arent either. that stuff is shoved down our throat from the time we leave the womb
but what would be a better method to determine potential addictiveness of a drug other than it's rate of addiction?
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212280 - 12/01/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority.
i understand why it seems like an appeal to authority
but it isnt
it's an understanding that if we dont have a consensus manuscript of how to diagnose these diseases, it would be vastly more subjective than it already is.
the purpose of the DSM is to keep doctors using the same criteria for diagnosing these diseases.
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vinsue
Grand Old Fart



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Posts: 17,953
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212283 - 12/01/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my experience, alcohol addiction is worse than heroin which is worse than barbiturates which is worse than tobacco. Each physically addictive on their own level. (Never fucked with benzos) Meth and cocaine were not physically addictive to me, but psychologically addictive, kinda like the Shroomery and caffine. And believe me, I've abused the shit out of all of them.
BTW, I think you guys have earned the


... . . .
--------------------
"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ... Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) . ...
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212285 - 12/01/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
care to elaborate?
Reviewers see the exact manuscript that is (eventually) published in final form. The materials and methods section typically consists of a brief paragraph stating: "Subjects were screened for DSM-4 criteria for substance dependence".
That's it. Reviewers don't really have an idea of how the DSM was administered and/or interpreted.
For example how does one define "continued use despite harm".
continued use despite harm seems pretty straight forward to me.
im trying really hard to come up with some gray areas that could be interpreted differently by otherwise rational people.
im not coming up with much.
hit me with it baby
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212286 - 12/01/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority.
i understand why it seems like an appeal to authority
but it isnt
it's an understanding that if we dont have a consensus manuscript of how to diagnose these diseases, it would be vastly more subjective than it already is.
the purpose of the DSM is to keep doctors using the same criteria for diagnosing these diseases.
See above for my edit. I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM: specifically, that which supposedly ranks addictiveness according to you. I'm not even sure there is such a criteria, based on my memories from a few psychology classes that went over the manual. I could be wrong, but that still does not negate my original point.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212293 - 12/01/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
so lets say the DSM is entirely bullshit, and therefore any study that uses the DSM is bullshit.
how do we come to any meaningful conclusions?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212296 - 12/01/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212302 - 12/01/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true. 
those letters above their name are wholly arbitrary and don't signify any amount of education or anything like that
oh wait, none of what i said is true.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212308 - 12/01/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: so lets say the DSM is entirely bullshit, and therefore any study that uses the DSM is bullshit.
how do we come to any meaningful conclusions?
I'm not saying that. 
All I'm saying is that you should have a good reason for defining a concept a certain way. So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people, including psychiatrists and psychologists who had a hand in the writing of the DSM.
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: ...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true. 
those letters above their name are wholly arbitrary and don't signify any amount of education or anything like that
oh wait, none of what i said is true.
Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212316 - 12/01/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212320 - 12/01/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true? 
when you get an entire community of highly educated people together to come up with some standards of diagnosing diseases, i tend to think they've thought it through a little bit more than you have.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212323 - 12/01/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
I'm eagerly waiting for your list of quantitative criteria for a substance's addictiveness as per the DSM V. 
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true? 
when you get an entire community of highly educated people together to come up with some standards of diagnosing diseases, i tend to think they've thought it through a little bit more than you have.
In that case I'm sure you won't have any trouble listing their reasoned and logical arguments why their particular standard/criteria for addictiveness is the correct one. I'll be waiting.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212330 - 12/01/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
I'm eagerly waiting for your list of quantitative criteria for a substance's addictiveness as per the DSM V. 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dsm+addiction+criteria
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212333 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you illiterate, or just purposefully obtuse?
Addiction =/= addictiveness
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212334 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: In that case I'm sure you won't have any trouble listing their reasoned and logical arguments why their particular standard/criteria for addictiveness is the correct one. I'll be waiting.
rather than argue why it is correct. why dont you argue why it isn't correct?
why is the burden of proof on me?
i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212336 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Are you illiterate, or just purposefully obtuse?
Addiction =/= addictiveness
the dsm doesnt say anything about substances addictiveness
the DSM is about diseases, not drugs.
so now we are back to the begining
i think that rate of addiction is logical in determining a drugs addictive potential
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212351 - 12/01/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness. Hell, they even brought in some Harvard philosophers to make sure the terms being used weren't ambiguous in any way and that no one, EVER, would have cause for disagreement when the qualifier "more addictive than" would be raised in a future discussion.

I'm still waiting here, BTW. In case you didn't know, the burden of proof is on the claimant. I've provided enough questions that show the ambiguity of the relevant terms being used that I don't need to provide anything further.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212362 - 12/01/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness Addiction.
they did.
and then we use that criteria to determine the rate of addiction in a given population
and with that data we conclude that drug A has a higher rate of addiction than drug B
and then with that data we can logically conclude that drug A is more addictive than drug B
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212371 - 12/01/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness.
youre straw manning real hard.
i never claimed the medical community has a classification for how addictive a substance is
the medical community classifies what addiction is
and then we extrapolate the more addictive substances by simple statistics work
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



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Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212374 - 12/01/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And back we go to about two pages prior when I asked you for an explanation of what, precisely, "rate of addiction" means. 
Until you can precisely define the terms you're using, your criteria is fundamentally useless. Not to mention you haven't provided justification for why we should assume rate of addiction should even qualify as a measuring tool for addictiveness, as opposed to some other standard of measure.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212382 - 12/01/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: And back we go to about two pages prior when I asked you for an explanation of what, precisely, "rate of addiction" means. 
Until you can precisely define the terms you're using, your criteria is fundamentally useless. Not to mention you haven't provided justification for why we should assume rate of addiction should even qualify as a measuring tool for addictiveness, as opposed to some other standard of measure.
i explained it very simply
the rate of addiction is the amount of drug users who become addicted.
to me that logic is self-evident
what isn't making sense?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212388 - 12/01/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly? Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed? Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future. Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time? How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify? Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily? Or weekly? Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die?
This is getting really repetitive and boring on my end. Care to actually answer any of my questions this time?
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k00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212392 - 12/01/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
using the DSM
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deCypher



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212395 - 12/01/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for continuing to refuse to answer my questions in lieu of the fallacious, yet undoubtedly easier, Appeal to Authority.
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k00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212398 - 12/01/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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we have to use the DSM
if we dont use the DSM our results will be meaningless.
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psi
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212473 - 12/01/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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k00laid said:
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psi said:
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k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
well that does make sense.
but caffeine users aren't self-selected. often times nicotine users arent either. that stuff is shoved down our throat from the time we leave the womb
but what would be a better method to determine potential addictiveness of a drug other than it's rate of addiction?
IMO such comparisons are of limited utility anyway, since so much depends on the individual's brain chemistry and psychological makeup. One individual may be far more susceptible to addiction to a substance that's "less addictive" to people on average. Relatively few alcohol users get to the point where quitting suddenly would threaten their life, but for those people it's certainly extremely hard to quit. A determined enough tobacco user can simply arrange a situation in which they won't have access to the drug for an extended period and they will be forced to quit.
Another problem with characterizing certain things as being extremely difficult to quit is that it probably reinforces a defeatist attitude in some. When waiting out withdrawal symptoms is unpleasant but harmless, it's mostly a psychological battle. The idea that physical dependence overrides free will is a cop-out that many people fall into IMO.
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teamkiller
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212558 - 12/01/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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lol. I laugh pretty hard at how dumb people on the shroomery are, but this thread is a new low.
-Cigs stop feeling good and become miserable after the first couple years. -they significantly lower your quality of life -A billion people do it. - most people do it until it kills them, 10 years earlier than non-smokers. - most people don't even try and quit. of those who do try and quit most can't. of those who do quit, most relapse and start smoking again.
durrr. prove they're addictive.
why does everyone want to know koolaid's definitions of all these terms? is koolaid an authority on addiction research? why can't we just use the common definitions.
like i said, unfortunately i'm not one of you special guys who can just quit. i totally lose control of my mind.
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Bitter Cactus
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller]
#19212566 - 12/01/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
teamkiller said: lol. I laugh pretty hard at how dumb people on the shroomery are, but this thread is a new low.
-Cigs stop feeling good and become miserable after the first couple years. -they significantly lower your quality of life -A billion people do it. - most people do it until it kills them, 10 years earlier than non-smokers. - most people don't even try and quit. of those who do try and quit most can't. of those who do quit, most relapse and start smoking again.
durrr. prove they're addictive.
why does everyone want to know koolaid's definitions of all these terms? is koolaid an authority on addiction research? why can't we just use the common definitions.
like i said, unfortunately i'm not one of you special guys who can just quit. i totally lose control of my mind.
I like when people use logic for things like this. You don't need a fucking source or studies.. It's really not that complicated and doesn't require more thinking then what you stated there.
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teamkiller
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#19212592 - 12/01/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Addiction is the continued repetition of a behavior despite adverse consequences,[1] or a neurological impairment leading to such behaviors
there i got that from wikipedia.
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When heavily dependent users of cocaine are asked to compare the urge to take cocaine with the urge to smoke cigarettes, about 45 percent say the urge to smoke is as strong or stronger than that for cocaine.
Among heroin addicts, about 38 percent rank the urge to smoke as equal to or stronger than the urge to take heroin. Among those addicted to alcohol, about 50 percent say the urge to smoke is at least as strong as the urge to drink.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/02/science/is-nicotine-addictive-it-depends-on-whose-criteria-you-use.html
Lol, in this random news article 45 of cocaine ADDICTS says smoking is equally or more addictive. There we have our anecdotal measure also.
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psi
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller] 1
#19212603 - 12/01/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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teamkiller said: durrr. prove they're addictive.
I don't think anyone has argued here that they aren't. The discussion in the last little bit has focused on the methodology and utility of trying to rank the addictiveness of different substances. Obviously though there are many people with strong addictions to tobacco.
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teamkiller
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212670 - 12/01/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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well we could look at how many people successfully break the addiction. In which cause nicotine is more addictive than most drugs. That could be do accessibility though.
we could look at the likelihood people using a substance will become addicted, in which case nicotine is waaaaaaay more addictive than any other drug. the rate of addiction after trying 1 cigarette is insane, like some CIA black OPs shit.
we could look at average length of time someone stays addicted, in which case nicotine is the most addictive.
we could look at the phyiscal health toll, in which case nicotine is pretty addictive.
we could look at the monetary cost, in which case i guess nicotine isn't that bad.
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psi
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller]
#19214456 - 12/01/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's certainly a major health problem worldwide, and starting smoking is undoubtedly an unwise idea if you care at all about your health. IMO there are pitfalls to over-emphasizing the difficulty of quitting, even if many people do find it very difficult.
The pharmacological properties are only one side of things though. "Addictiveness" is more than a simple pharmacological trait because things like culture, individual mental state, and availability (as you mentioned) influence the apparent ease or difficulty of becoming addicted in the first place or of quitting.
Things like withdrawal and tolerance are closely tied to pharmacology, but seeking out and self-administering the drug are learned behaviors. Over time you train yourself to respond to unpleasant withdrawal symptoms if they exist (or to other unrelated stresses in life) by taking the drug. Although that response may become very ingrained, it does not override free will. Training yourself out of your learned behaviors is always possible. It may be true that something is generally quite difficult for most people to quit, but it's a poor mantra for someone who is trying to do it.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19216999 - 12/02/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
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teamkiller said: durrr. prove they're addictive.
I don't think anyone has argued here that they aren't. The discussion in the last little bit has focused on the methodology and utility of trying to rank the addictiveness of different substances. Obviously though there are many people with strong addictions to tobacco.
Yeah, exactly. teamkiller posted a good list of more or less equally compelling alternative standards for judging 'addictiveness'.
I'd argue that the legality and availability of nicotine products is a significant factor for most of those standards, too--seeing ads for tobacco products everywhere and not being able to enter a convenience store without being tempted to buy a fresh pack will make it extremely hard for an ex-smoker to resist relapsing. At least with heroin you can avoid being reminded of it all the time, unless you live in the middle of the ghetto.
I've had problems quitting both tobacco and heroin in the past. Heroin was much harder to quit for me because of the simple fact that I'd get horribly sick from the physical withdrawals. Tobacco's addiction was all mental and eventually I could distract myself by thinking of something else long enough for the craving to pass away. Good luck doing that with opiates.
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