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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212371 - 12/01/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said:
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k00laid said: i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness.
youre straw manning real hard.
i never claimed the medical community has a classification for how addictive a substance is
the medical community classifies what addiction is
and then we extrapolate the more addictive substances by simple statistics work
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212374 - 12/01/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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And back we go to about two pages prior when I asked you for an explanation of what, precisely, "rate of addiction" means. 
Until you can precisely define the terms you're using, your criteria is fundamentally useless. Not to mention you haven't provided justification for why we should assume rate of addiction should even qualify as a measuring tool for addictiveness, as opposed to some other standard of measure.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212382 - 12/01/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: And back we go to about two pages prior when I asked you for an explanation of what, precisely, "rate of addiction" means. 
Until you can precisely define the terms you're using, your criteria is fundamentally useless. Not to mention you haven't provided justification for why we should assume rate of addiction should even qualify as a measuring tool for addictiveness, as opposed to some other standard of measure.
i explained it very simply
the rate of addiction is the amount of drug users who become addicted.
to me that logic is self-evident
what isn't making sense?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212388 - 12/01/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly? Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed? Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future. Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time? How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify? Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily? Or weekly? Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die?
This is getting really repetitive and boring on my end. Care to actually answer any of my questions this time?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212392 - 12/01/13 12:14 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said: And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?
using the DSM
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212395 - 12/01/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for continuing to refuse to answer my questions in lieu of the fallacious, yet undoubtedly easier, Appeal to Authority.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212398 - 12/01/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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we have to use the DSM
if we dont use the DSM our results will be meaningless.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212473 - 12/01/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
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psi said:
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k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
well that does make sense.
but caffeine users aren't self-selected. often times nicotine users arent either. that stuff is shoved down our throat from the time we leave the womb
but what would be a better method to determine potential addictiveness of a drug other than it's rate of addiction?
IMO such comparisons are of limited utility anyway, since so much depends on the individual's brain chemistry and psychological makeup. One individual may be far more susceptible to addiction to a substance that's "less addictive" to people on average. Relatively few alcohol users get to the point where quitting suddenly would threaten their life, but for those people it's certainly extremely hard to quit. A determined enough tobacco user can simply arrange a situation in which they won't have access to the drug for an extended period and they will be forced to quit.
Another problem with characterizing certain things as being extremely difficult to quit is that it probably reinforces a defeatist attitude in some. When waiting out withdrawal symptoms is unpleasant but harmless, it's mostly a psychological battle. The idea that physical dependence overrides free will is a cop-out that many people fall into IMO.
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teamkiller
ghetto drama whore



Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 8,806
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212558 - 12/01/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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lol. I laugh pretty hard at how dumb people on the shroomery are, but this thread is a new low.
-Cigs stop feeling good and become miserable after the first couple years. -they significantly lower your quality of life -A billion people do it. - most people do it until it kills them, 10 years earlier than non-smokers. - most people don't even try and quit. of those who do try and quit most can't. of those who do quit, most relapse and start smoking again.
durrr. prove they're addictive.
why does everyone want to know koolaid's definitions of all these terms? is koolaid an authority on addiction research? why can't we just use the common definitions.
like i said, unfortunately i'm not one of you special guys who can just quit. i totally lose control of my mind.
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Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller]
#19212566 - 12/01/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
teamkiller said: lol. I laugh pretty hard at how dumb people on the shroomery are, but this thread is a new low.
-Cigs stop feeling good and become miserable after the first couple years. -they significantly lower your quality of life -A billion people do it. - most people do it until it kills them, 10 years earlier than non-smokers. - most people don't even try and quit. of those who do try and quit most can't. of those who do quit, most relapse and start smoking again.
durrr. prove they're addictive.
why does everyone want to know koolaid's definitions of all these terms? is koolaid an authority on addiction research? why can't we just use the common definitions.
like i said, unfortunately i'm not one of you special guys who can just quit. i totally lose control of my mind.
I like when people use logic for things like this. You don't need a fucking source or studies.. It's really not that complicated and doesn't require more thinking then what you stated there.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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teamkiller
ghetto drama whore



Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 8,806
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Bitter Cactus]
#19212592 - 12/01/13 12:58 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Addiction is the continued repetition of a behavior despite adverse consequences,[1] or a neurological impairment leading to such behaviors
there i got that from wikipedia.
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When heavily dependent users of cocaine are asked to compare the urge to take cocaine with the urge to smoke cigarettes, about 45 percent say the urge to smoke is as strong or stronger than that for cocaine.
Among heroin addicts, about 38 percent rank the urge to smoke as equal to or stronger than the urge to take heroin. Among those addicted to alcohol, about 50 percent say the urge to smoke is at least as strong as the urge to drink.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/02/science/is-nicotine-addictive-it-depends-on-whose-criteria-you-use.html
Lol, in this random news article 45 of cocaine ADDICTS says smoking is equally or more addictive. There we have our anecdotal measure also.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller] 1
#19212603 - 12/01/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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teamkiller said: durrr. prove they're addictive.
I don't think anyone has argued here that they aren't. The discussion in the last little bit has focused on the methodology and utility of trying to rank the addictiveness of different substances. Obviously though there are many people with strong addictions to tobacco.
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teamkiller
ghetto drama whore



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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212670 - 12/01/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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well we could look at how many people successfully break the addiction. In which cause nicotine is more addictive than most drugs. That could be do accessibility though.
we could look at the likelihood people using a substance will become addicted, in which case nicotine is waaaaaaay more addictive than any other drug. the rate of addiction after trying 1 cigarette is insane, like some CIA black OPs shit.
we could look at average length of time someone stays addicted, in which case nicotine is the most addictive.
we could look at the phyiscal health toll, in which case nicotine is pretty addictive.
we could look at the monetary cost, in which case i guess nicotine isn't that bad.
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: teamkiller]
#19214456 - 12/01/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's certainly a major health problem worldwide, and starting smoking is undoubtedly an unwise idea if you care at all about your health. IMO there are pitfalls to over-emphasizing the difficulty of quitting, even if many people do find it very difficult.
The pharmacological properties are only one side of things though. "Addictiveness" is more than a simple pharmacological trait because things like culture, individual mental state, and availability (as you mentioned) influence the apparent ease or difficulty of becoming addicted in the first place or of quitting.
Things like withdrawal and tolerance are closely tied to pharmacology, but seeking out and self-administering the drug are learned behaviors. Over time you train yourself to respond to unpleasant withdrawal symptoms if they exist (or to other unrelated stresses in life) by taking the drug. Although that response may become very ingrained, it does not override free will. Training yourself out of your learned behaviors is always possible. It may be true that something is generally quite difficult for most people to quit, but it's a poor mantra for someone who is trying to do it.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19216999 - 12/02/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
teamkiller said: durrr. prove they're addictive.
I don't think anyone has argued here that they aren't. The discussion in the last little bit has focused on the methodology and utility of trying to rank the addictiveness of different substances. Obviously though there are many people with strong addictions to tobacco.
Yeah, exactly. teamkiller posted a good list of more or less equally compelling alternative standards for judging 'addictiveness'.
I'd argue that the legality and availability of nicotine products is a significant factor for most of those standards, too--seeing ads for tobacco products everywhere and not being able to enter a convenience store without being tempted to buy a fresh pack will make it extremely hard for an ex-smoker to resist relapsing. At least with heroin you can avoid being reminded of it all the time, unless you live in the middle of the ghetto.
I've had problems quitting both tobacco and heroin in the past. Heroin was much harder to quit for me because of the simple fact that I'd get horribly sick from the physical withdrawals. Tobacco's addiction was all mental and eventually I could distract myself by thinking of something else long enough for the craving to pass away. Good luck doing that with opiates.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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