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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212263 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
care to elaborate?
Reviewers see the exact manuscript that is (eventually) published in final form. The materials and methods section typically consists of a brief paragraph stating: "Subjects were screened for DSM-4 criteria for substance dependence".
That's it. Reviewers don't really have an idea of how the DSM was administered and/or interpreted.
For example how does one define "continued use despite harm".
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212268 - 12/01/13 11:50 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
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k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
based on the DSM 4 criteria
i can post a link if you cant find it on your own.
and the logical justification for using the DSM 4 is because the entire medical community uses D the DSM 4.
Hooray! You would have fit in well in the Catholic Church's priesthood back in the Middle Ages.
"Welp, the Sun revolves around the Earth because every respectable priest in-the-know says so."
Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority. Not to mention I'm not asking what the logical justification is for using the DSM IV. I'm asking what the logical justification is for assuming that criteria was valid.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: psi]
#19212272 - 12/01/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
well that does make sense.
but caffeine users aren't self-selected. often times nicotine users arent either. that stuff is shoved down our throat from the time we leave the womb
but what would be a better method to determine potential addictiveness of a drug other than it's rate of addiction?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212280 - 12/01/13 11:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority.
i understand why it seems like an appeal to authority
but it isnt
it's an understanding that if we dont have a consensus manuscript of how to diagnose these diseases, it would be vastly more subjective than it already is.
the purpose of the DSM is to keep doctors using the same criteria for diagnosing these diseases.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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vinsue
Grand Old Fart



Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 17,953
Loc: The Garden State(NJ)
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#19212283 - 12/01/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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In my experience, alcohol addiction is worse than heroin which is worse than barbiturates which is worse than tobacco. Each physically addictive on their own level. (Never fucked with benzos) Meth and cocaine were not physically addictive to me, but psychologically addictive, kinda like the Shroomery and caffine. And believe me, I've abused the shit out of all of them.
BTW, I think you guys have earned the


... . . .
--------------------
"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ... Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) . ...
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212285 - 12/01/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
care to elaborate?
Reviewers see the exact manuscript that is (eventually) published in final form. The materials and methods section typically consists of a brief paragraph stating: "Subjects were screened for DSM-4 criteria for substance dependence".
That's it. Reviewers don't really have an idea of how the DSM was administered and/or interpreted.
For example how does one define "continued use despite harm".
continued use despite harm seems pretty straight forward to me.
im trying really hard to come up with some gray areas that could be interpreted differently by otherwise rational people.
im not coming up with much.
hit me with it baby
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212286 - 12/01/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Do you not know what a logical justification is? Hint: it doesn't involve using fallacies like Appeal to Authority.
i understand why it seems like an appeal to authority
but it isnt
it's an understanding that if we dont have a consensus manuscript of how to diagnose these diseases, it would be vastly more subjective than it already is.
the purpose of the DSM is to keep doctors using the same criteria for diagnosing these diseases.
See above for my edit. I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM: specifically, that which supposedly ranks addictiveness according to you. I'm not even sure there is such a criteria, based on my memories from a few psychology classes that went over the manual. I could be wrong, but that still does not negate my original point.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212293 - 12/01/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
so lets say the DSM is entirely bullshit, and therefore any study that uses the DSM is bullshit.
how do we come to any meaningful conclusions?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212296 - 12/01/13 11:55 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212302 - 12/01/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: I'm not questioning the purpose of the DSM; I'm questioning the validity of the criteria within the DSM

talk about david and goliath.
...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true. 
those letters above their name are wholly arbitrary and don't signify any amount of education or anything like that
oh wait, none of what i said is true.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212308 - 12/01/13 11:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: so lets say the DSM is entirely bullshit, and therefore any study that uses the DSM is bullshit.
how do we come to any meaningful conclusions?
I'm not saying that. 
All I'm saying is that you should have a good reason for defining a concept a certain way. So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people, including psychiatrists and psychologists who had a hand in the writing of the DSM.
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: ...talk about blindly accepting something just because someone with a few letters after their name said it was true. 
those letters above their name are wholly arbitrary and don't signify any amount of education or anything like that
oh wait, none of what i said is true.
Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212316 - 12/01/13 11:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212320 - 12/01/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true? 
when you get an entire community of highly educated people together to come up with some standards of diagnosing diseases, i tend to think they've thought it through a little bit more than you have.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212323 - 12/01/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
I'm eagerly waiting for your list of quantitative criteria for a substance's addictiveness as per the DSM V. 
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Oh wait, having education means that anything an educated person says is infallible and automatically true? 
when you get an entire community of highly educated people together to come up with some standards of diagnosing diseases, i tend to think they've thought it through a little bit more than you have.
In that case I'm sure you won't have any trouble listing their reasoned and logical arguments why their particular standard/criteria for addictiveness is the correct one. I'll be waiting.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212330 - 12/01/13 12:02 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: So far I haven't seen any satisfactory definition of addictiveness that is agreed-to by any consensus of rational people
well it is there.
it's called the DSM 5
why do you think the people who had a hand in writing the DSM are unsatisfied with it?
that's a pretty loft claim. got any links?
I'm eagerly waiting for your list of quantitative criteria for a substance's addictiveness as per the DSM V. 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dsm+addiction+criteria
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212333 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you illiterate, or just purposefully obtuse?
Addiction =/= addictiveness
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212334 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: In that case I'm sure you won't have any trouble listing their reasoned and logical arguments why their particular standard/criteria for addictiveness is the correct one. I'll be waiting.
rather than argue why it is correct. why dont you argue why it isn't correct?
why is the burden of proof on me?
i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212336 - 12/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Are you illiterate, or just purposefully obtuse?
Addiction =/= addictiveness
the dsm doesnt say anything about substances addictiveness
the DSM is about diseases, not drugs.
so now we are back to the begining
i think that rate of addiction is logical in determining a drugs addictive potential
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212351 - 12/01/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: i've got the entire medical community behind me.
you got nothin'
Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness. Hell, they even brought in some Harvard philosophers to make sure the terms being used weren't ambiguous in any way and that no one, EVER, would have cause for disagreement when the qualifier "more addictive than" would be raised in a future discussion.

I'm still waiting here, BTW. In case you didn't know, the burden of proof is on the claimant. I've provided enough questions that show the ambiguity of the relevant terms being used that I don't need to provide anything further.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212362 - 12/01/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Yeah bro, you sure do. The entire medical community got together and hammered out an infallible logical justification for their criteria for addictiveness Addiction.
they did.
and then we use that criteria to determine the rate of addiction in a given population
and with that data we conclude that drug A has a higher rate of addiction than drug B
and then with that data we can logically conclude that drug A is more addictive than drug B
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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