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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212208 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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deCypher said:
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badchad said:
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k00laid said:
do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?
No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out.
Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.
Yep. I wouldn't mind koolaid's use of the DSM to support his argument, if only he would provide some kind of logical reasoning that supports using whatever arbitrary definition of addictiveness he chooses to employ.
you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?
really??
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212210 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212214 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212218 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?
really??
Yeah, really. Sorry, but if the DSM says that (for example) every child who displays hyperactivity necessarily has ADHD, and I argue for that position, I'm not gonna be flabbergasted if someone doesn't just accept the Absolute Truth of the DSM's proclamations as veritable gospel.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad] 1
#19212220 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
And after how many uses? 1 use? two uses? After how many years? What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits? What if they use for a month or tow, then stop?
All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them. More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212224 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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if we dont use the DSM we wont get any meaningful results
only anecdotes.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212226 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness
Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!
What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'? The rate of what, specifically?
the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin
Sigh. You almost were on the right track. You are using ill-defined terms, which muddies up the argument. What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
Quote:
badchad said: "Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
And after how many uses? 1 use? two uses? After how many years? What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits? What if they use for a month or tow, then stop?
All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them. More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.
Mhm.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212228 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: "Rate of addiction" as assessed by what? DSM? It's incredibly subjective.
what would you suggest we use instead?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212229 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212231 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212234 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212236 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
Did you even read the study you're using as support? Serious question. Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 2
#19212239 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212243 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data
The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 2
#19212246 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
No. No its not.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212249 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
deCypher said: What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'? Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.
see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)
Did you even read the study you're using as support? Serious question. Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.
yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
#19212252 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
and that issue is solved by the peer review process
No. No its not.
care to elaborate?
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
#19212259 - 12/01/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
#19212261 - 12/01/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
k00laid said: yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question
mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject
Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?
And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?
based on the DSM 4 criteria
i can post a link if you cant find it on your own.
and the logical justification for using the DSM 4 is because the entire medical community uses D the DSM 4.
-------------------- AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
Posts: 31,456
Loc: 613
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] 1
#19212262 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago) |
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k00laid said: the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction
Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.
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