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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212208 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:



do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?




No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out. 

Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.




Yep.  :thumbup:  I wouldn't mind koolaid's use of the DSM to support his argument, if only he would provide some kind of logical reasoning that supports using whatever arbitrary definition of addictiveness he chooses to employ.




you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?

really??


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212210 - 12/01/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness




Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!

What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'?  The rate of what, specifically?


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212214 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness




Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!

What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'?  The rate of what, specifically?




the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction

nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212218 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
you are asking me to provide the logical background of why what the DSM says is true?

really??




Yeah, really.  Sorry, but if the DSM says that (for example) every child who displays hyperactivity necessarily has ADHD, and I argue for that position, I'm not gonna be flabbergasted if someone doesn't just accept the Absolute Truth of the DSM's proclamations as veritable gospel.  :rofl:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad] * 1
    #19212220 - 12/01/13 11:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"Rate of addiction" as assessed by what?  DSM?  It's incredibly subjective.

And after how many uses?  1 use?  two uses?  After how  many years?  What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits?  What if they use for a month or tow, then stop? 

All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them.  More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212224 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

if we dont use the DSM we wont get any meaningful results

only anecdotes.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212226 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness




Now at last we're getting somewhere interesting!

What exactly do you mean by 'rate of addiction'?  The rate of what, specifically?




the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction

nicotine has similar, if not higher, rates of addiction when compared to heroin




Sigh.  You almost were on the right track.  You are using ill-defined terms, which muddies up the argument.  What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'?  Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.

Quote:

badchad said:
"Rate of addiction" as assessed by what?  DSM?  It's incredibly subjective.

And after how many uses?  1 use?  two uses?  After how  many years?  What if someone gets "addicted" for a three year period, then quits?  What if they use for a month or tow, then stop? 

All these variables are inherently difficult to define and take into account, which is why the literature doesn't really use them.  More classic examples of reinforcing efficacy are usually measures through human abuse liability studies, animal self administrations studies etc., which all suffer from their own problems as well.




Mhm.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212228 - 12/01/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
"Rate of addiction" as assessed by what?  DSM?  It's incredibly subjective.




what would you suggest we use instead?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212229 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinek00laid
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Posts: 19,636
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212231 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'?  Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.




see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212234 - 12/01/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
If you've ever actually used the DSM, it's essentially the interpretation of repeated anecdotes.




when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212236 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'?  Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.




see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)




Did you even read the study you're using as support?  Serious question.  Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.


--------------------
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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 2
    #19212239 - 12/01/13 11:43 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:


when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data




The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinek00laid
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Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 6 months, 4 days
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212243 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:


when its agreed upon by the medical community as a whole. it turns anecdotes into useable data




The issue lies in the arbitrary nature of who is turning the anecdotes into data.




and that issue is solved by the peer review process


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 2
    #19212246 - 12/01/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:


and that issue is solved by the peer review process




No.  No its not.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212249 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
What, precisely do you mean by 'become addicted'?  Refer again to my previous post if you're having trouble remembering my questions.




see: the DSM4 (for the study i posted)




Did you even read the study you're using as support?  Serious question.  Seems like you have no idea what criteria they're using to quantify addictiveness.




yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question

mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212252 - 12/01/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:


and that issue is solved by the peer review process




No.  No its not.




care to elaborate?


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212259 - 12/01/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question

mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject




Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?

And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212261 - 12/01/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
yes. they used a number of different doctors who diagnosed their patients as addicted. or "dependent" on the drug in question

mostly it was the primary care doctor of the test subject




Based on... what... criteria... SPECIFICALLY?

And what logical justification did they have for assuming that criteria was valid?




based on the DSM 4 criteria

i can post a link if you cant find it on your own.

and the logical justification for using the DSM 4 is because the entire medical community uses D the DSM 4.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212262 - 12/01/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
the amount of users who become addicted is the rate of addiction




Why would you figure that's a good indicator of addictiveness? Users of a drug are self-selected, and there's really no reason to assume that their susceptibility to addiction to their drug of choice reflects the susceptibility of the entire population to becoming addicted to the drug if they had used it.


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