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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212110 - 12/01/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
The medical community may have a consensus as to what addiction is, but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.





it can easily be ranked by percentage of users becoming addicted.

which has been done

and i posted it.




And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?  Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed?  Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future.  Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time?  How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify?  Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily?  Or weekly?  Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die?  I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction.  :lol:

Sorry, but you're still not providing evidence of any medical OR scientific consensus, and what's more--you won't find any.  Try arguing for a solid philosophical definition of addiction before invoking whatever study you originally cherry-picked to support your claims.


--------------------
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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212116 - 12/01/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeahh, they should rank the intensity of the addiction too. in which case we would see where heroin stands in reality.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212118 - 12/01/13 11:20 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.


--------------------
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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19212126 - 12/01/13 11:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
yeahh, they should rank the intensity of the addiction withdrawals too. in which case we would see where heroin stands in reality.




if we change a word then we can rank heroin higher than nicotine.

but then we would rank it lower than alcohol

alcohol withdrawals can kill you

opiate withdrawals wont kill you, but the dehydration might.

benzo withdrawals can  kill you


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212132 - 12/01/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.



DSM 4 is grossly outdated..


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19212144 - 12/01/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rbalzer said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.



DSM 4 is grossly outdated..





Quote:

The threshold for substance use disorder diagnosis in DSM-5 is set at two or more criteria. This is a change from DSM-IV, where abuse required a threshold of one or more criteria be met, and three or more for DSM-IV substance dependence.




HUGE changes


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212147 - 12/01/13 11:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.




:rofl:

Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another.  Thanks for dodging the entire rest of my questions, though.  :thumbup:


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212151 - 12/01/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

propose your own criteria then

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.




:rofl:

Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another.




also, i did

percentage of users that become addicted is a very logical measurement of the addictiveness of a drug.


--------------------
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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212153 - 12/01/13 11:27 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

rbalzer said:
Quote:

k00laid said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?



Quote:

DSM - IV Substance Dependence Criteria




the same way everyone else does.



DSM 4 is grossly outdated..





Quote:

The threshold for substance use disorder diagnosis in DSM-5 is set at two or more criteria. This is a change from DSM-IV, where abuse required a threshold of one or more criteria be met, and three or more for DSM-IV substance dependence.




HUGE changes



I'm not familiar with the entire thing, mainly parts about depression disorders I remembered being out dated.

I shouldn't have assumed it was ALL out dated, but how long ago did that thing even come out?


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #19212165 - 12/01/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

let me just sum this entire thread up.

k00laid: well the science we have access to right now says nicotine is just as addictive as heroin

shroomery: well that science is wrong

k00laid: i dont think it is

shroomery: we know more than the scientific community, k00laid. stop being such a sheep.

k00laid: wat...


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid]
    #19212170 - 12/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
propose your own criteria then

Quote:

deCypher said:
Please, report back to us their infallible criteria for determining whether a substance is more addictive than another.




also, i did

percentage of users that become addicted is a very logical measurement of the addictiveness of a drug.




:wow:

Please refer back to my previous post for a series of questions that you ignored that provide a list of potential reasons why "percentage of users that become addicted" is a hopelessly ill-defined and ultimately arbitrary concept.

Quote:

deCypher said:
And you're defining "becoming addicted", how exactly?  Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed?  Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future.  Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time?  How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify?  Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily?  Or weekly?  Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die?  I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction.  :lol:

Sorry, but you're still not providing evidence of any medical OR scientific consensus, and what's more--you won't find any.  Try arguing for a solid philosophical definition of addiction before invoking whatever study you originally cherry-picked to support your claims.




--------------------
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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212171 - 12/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:
let me just sum this entire thread up.

k00laid: well the science we have access to right now says nicotine is just as addictive as heroin

shroomery: well that science is wrong

k00laid: i dont think it is

shroomery: we know more than the scientific community, k00laid. stop being such a sheep.

k00laid: wat...



way to reduce everything we've said into "science is wrong"


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 2
    #19212174 - 12/01/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:

when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted
and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted

it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin




The classic study  examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam.  In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent.  STUDY.

So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc.  So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained.  Or, in other words:

Quote:

deCypher said:


The medical community may have a consensus as to what the state of addiction is (even then you'll run into differences of opinion and various grey areas/discrepancies relating to different people defining substance abuse differently from addiction), but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.  :sorry:




--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (12/01/13 11:32 AM)


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OfflineBitter Cactus
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212178 - 12/01/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Honestly sometimes studies and testing drugs on rats is not the way to go. If you want to know which is the most addictive I believe that user experience and anecdotes may actually be more useful. I want a guy who has done crack, meth, heroin and nicotine to tell me his/ her experience with the substances. Simply stating that X percent of people become addicted to a substance they use does not take all the factors into account. I could tell you a large percentage of caffeine users become addicted to the drug, due to availability, but that doesn't mean quitting a caffeine habit is tougher than quitting a heroin addiction even though less heroin addicts become addicted.

Based on what I have read online, crack seems to be addictive the night/ days after you do it, but after you reach a certain point it's fairly easy to return to your normal lifestyle. Many people would contend that meth is a very powerful psychological addiction but has no significant physical withdrawals that force you to tweak. Heroin on the other hand, has a strong psychological pull and an intense physical addiction that makes it one of the hardest to quit. Finally, nicotine has a very strong psychological pull. The act of smoking itself is very addictive. The availability, social acceptance, lack of strong high associated with it, makes it very easy for people to continue using. It also has withdrawals and mental cravings/ associations to the effects and act of smoking that make it a very strong habit to quit. I have no idea where it ranks in my list in between crack, meth and heroin because I don't smoke. I'm going to go out on a limb and say nictoine is the most addictive of that group three but not the hardest to quit if that makes sense. Many people continue the compulsion of addiction with cigarettes, which is taking a drug, feeling good and repeating that behaviour over and over. It is easy to do this because of the many factors I listed. You will not see nearly as many crack, heroin and meth addicts going hard at it for years because of one reason or another. You will see many cigarette smokers going their entire lives. This is precisely what makes it the most addictive and not a good habit to start. The addiction does not come close to competing with the heroin withdrawals but that is only one component of what makes drugs addictive.

There you go. No peer studies, no rat tests. Just basing it off of logic. Is that so hard to do?


--------------------
Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.




Edited by Bitter Cactus (12/01/13 11:32 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212182 - 12/01/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:

when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted
and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted

it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin




The classic study  examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam.  In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent.  STUDY.

So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc.  So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained.




:thumbup:

Not to mention provide some kind of logical justification for their particular list of criteria for judging addictiveness.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: deCypher]
    #19212184 - 12/01/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Do you mean they will be using the drug in question until their dying moments on their deathbed?  Gee, I didn't know scientific studies could foretell the future.  Or do you mean a certain percentage of users continued using the drug for a specific amount of time?  How long is necessary for the label 'addiction' to qualify?  Oh, wait, do you mean they continued using the drug daily?  Or weekly?  Does it still count as 'addiction' if they continue doing the drug in question every six months until they die?  I'd be interested in knowing why, exactly, the specifically-tailored, arbitrary definition as provided in the study you mentioned earlier is THE end-all, be-all definition of addiction.





these questions?

i answered that.

they used the DSM 4 to diagnose substance dependence.


do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Posts: 13,372
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: k00laid] * 1
    #19212189 - 12/01/13 11:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

k00laid said:



do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?




No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out. 

Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (12/01/13 11:34 AM)


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212200 - 12/01/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:

when 30% of people who smoke nicotine get addicted
and 25% of people who use heroin get addicted

it's pretty safe to say that nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin




The classic study  examining dependence and/or addiction is the study of heroin use by American soldiers returning from Vietnam.  In that study, only about 1% of those that tried heroin became dependent.  STUDY.

So the "addictive" properties of drugs are affected by how you design the study, environmental factors, methods of analyses, etc.  So you'd need to examine the source of the data for some context on how the numbers were obtained.  Or, in other words:

Quote:

deCypher said:


The medical community may have a consensus as to what the state of addiction is (even then you'll run into differences of opinion and various grey areas/discrepancies relating to different people defining substance abuse differently from addiction), but they certainly don't have a consensus as to how to rank the quality of addictiveness.  :sorry:








so how do you overcome that?

more tests. if they added nicotine to that test, the results would be comparable to the other studies

in that, nicotine would have a higher rate of addiction


rate of addiction in users is very logical in deducing how addictive a substance is


if we want to nit pick about individual methods for determining rate of addiction, we certainly can do that

but rate of addiction is the only way to determine addictiveness

how we determine rate of addiction is what we are debating.

rate of addiction is the only information that provides a conclusion


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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: badchad]
    #19212202 - 12/01/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

k00laid said:



do you really need me to explain to you what the dsm4 says about addiction?




No, because the criteria have changed now that DSM 5 is out. 

Not to mention the inherent difficulty, and arbitrary method of diagnosing using the DSM.




Yep.  :thumbup:  I wouldn't mind koolaid's use of the DSM to support his argument, if only he would provide some kind of logical reasoning that supports using whatever arbitrary definition of addictiveness he chooses to employ, rather than just use a fallacious appeal to authority and refuse to question the definition of the very concepts that are at the heart of this debate.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinek00laid
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Re: Is it REALLY that hard to quit nicotine? [Re: Bitter Cactus]
    #19212206 - 12/01/13 11:37 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bitter Cactus said:
I could tell you a large percentage of caffeine users become addicted to the drug, due to availability, but that doesn't mean quitting a caffeine habit is tougher than quitting a heroin addiction even though less heroin addicts become addicted.




you are comparing withdrawal

not addictive potential.


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