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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Psilicon]
    #19213496 - 12/01/13 04:05 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Listen, do you think you are increasing the pressure by covering it with a lid?





A tray won't do the same thing when covered because it's not surrounded by moist air which conveys heat much better, and because the partial pressure of water surrounding it is low and any crack or leak in the aluminum will allow gas to billow out.




That's why you cover it with aluminum foil twice and go around it 3-4 times.


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213505 - 12/01/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Is there a difference in the temperature acheived in a substrate in a PC regardless of the container that is within the PC or no container within the pc at all?




Word salad.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213512 - 12/01/13 04:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Another point of evidence is that suggested temperature is 72-75 or some bogus made up shit now, when it used to be 85, and it is 85 in the real world, but the cakes aren't sterilized so the incubation at optimal temperatures can germinate the spores that weren't killed in his steaming.

Germs don't spontaneously generate because of heat. It's because they were never all killed in the first place.



Or because filters aren't 100% efficient. Also there's a difference between the scientific definition of sterility and commercial sterility. In commercial sterility organisms that can't grow in the conditions and temperatures that the product is going to be kept in don't count. That's all that's really important.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19213520 - 12/01/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Because the oven is dry, the water vapor will transfer from the substrate while it's heating. This will result in slower heating of the substrate and simultaneously drying it out.

Given enough time, the end result could possibly be sterile substrate, but likely will be very dry. But, sterility is still unlikely because vermiculite does not transfer heat very well. Vermiculite is sometimes used as an insulter for this reason.





The water stays in the tray because it is covered. Do you know how the water cycle works? It was already explained but evidently you didn't read the thread.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213533 - 12/01/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:


Because the oven is dry, the water vapor will transfer from the substrate while it's heating. This will result in slower heating of the substrate and simultaneously drying it out.

Given enough time, the end result could possibly be sterile substrate, but likely will be very dry. But, sterility is still unlikely because vermiculite does not transfer heat very well. Vermiculite is sometimes used as an insulter for this reason.





The water stays in the tray because it is covered. Do you know how the water cycle works? It was already explained but evidently you didn't read the thread.



Perhaps you missed what I wrote before. That's not how the water cycle works in an oven. When your steaming in a pot on the stove the lid is much cooler from the cool air above it. In an oven the air above is hotter than the temperature in the pot, it's going to condense there.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Kizzle]
    #19213535 - 12/01/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Double post.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Kizzle]
    #19213542 - 12/01/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Or because filters aren't 100% efficient. Also there's a difference between the scientific definition of sterility and commercial sterility. In commercial sterility organisms that can't grow in the conditions and temperatures that the product is going to be kept in don't count. That's all that's really important.





So do you think it is better to let them hide and get transferred into the bulk, rather than showing themselves earlier so you can fix the filter and incubate at truly optimal temps, rather than some made up temp?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Kizzle]
    #19213550 - 12/01/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:


Because the oven is dry, the water vapor will transfer from the substrate while it's heating. This will result in slower heating of the substrate and simultaneously drying it out.

Given enough time, the end result could possibly be sterile substrate, but likely will be very dry. But, sterility is still unlikely because vermiculite does not transfer heat very well. Vermiculite is sometimes used as an insulter for this reason.





The water stays in the tray because it is covered. Do you know how the water cycle works? It was already explained but evidently you didn't read the thread.



Perhaps you missed what I wrote before. That's not how the water cycle works in an oven. When your steaming in a pot on the stove the lid is much cooler from the cool air above it. In an oven the air above is hotter than the temperature in the pot, it's going to condense there.




Think of the aluminum foil as a condenser, like a radiator in a car.


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213553 - 12/01/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yes. I was a meteorologist and have experience in trying to oven pasteurize vs using steam.

Moisture content of substrates can be delicate. If your core is hot enough to sterilize, then the pressure inside will not be able to be completely contained by the foil. This results in evaporation of the substrate and lack of proper filtration afterwards.

If you want to fuck around with making your substrate wetter so it has more moisture afterwards, you still don't have a proper contam barrier.

Bare in mind, nobody is telling you not to do this. But, unless you post some pics of your success, nobody should listen to you.

Sometimes stuff works, but it's not best practice.


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The Noob Forum
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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19213565 - 12/01/13 04:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That's why the tek calls for everything to be at field capacity. When it comes out it is only slightly lower, try it. Most of the water condenses on the aluminum and precipitates to repeat. If it is sealed properly you will lose very little water.

It's The simplest way to do a tray there is. So I guess what constitutes "Best Practice" is relative. Because making cakes are definitely not best practice for anyone with experience, yet it may be for a complete noob.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Kizzle]
    #19213597 - 12/01/13 04:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Another point of evidence is that suggested temperature is 72-75 or some bogus made up shit now, when it used to be 85, and it is 85 in the real world, but the cakes aren't sterilized so the incubation at optimal temperatures can germinate the spores that weren't killed in his steaming.

Germs don't spontaneously generate because of heat. It's because they were never all killed in the first place.



Or because filters aren't 100% efficient. Also there's a difference between the scientific definition of sterility and commercial sterility. In commercial sterility organisms that can't grow in the conditions and temperatures that the product is going to be kept in don't count. That's all that's really important.




Also, that's why you waste extra verm on top of the cake already. If it was being sterilized and had 2 barriers there is no reason not to incubate at optimal temperatures.

I mean do you really think you can change what the optimal growth temperature is just to suite your tek?


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19213622 - 12/01/13 04:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Look up "D-casing". It's not much different than what you're doing and has proven to be unreliable.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
But, unless you post some pics of your success, nobody should listen to you.

Sometimes stuff works, but it's not best practice.




--------------------
The Basics
A little civility goes a long way

The Noob Forum
The Hammock Hangers' Forum


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213630 - 12/01/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If it was being sterilized and had 2 barriers there is no reason not to incubate at optimal temperatures.



Optimal temps are mid 70s throughout the whole grow, but anywhere from 65F-80F is acceptable.

Incubation is outdated/uneeded unless temps in the range stated above cannot be kept.

The inside of the jar is always a few degrees warmer than the outside because the mycellium produces heat..mycellium tends to stall at temps above 86F , and contams thrive.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: PussyFart]
    #19213634 - 12/01/13 04:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How do you know what the optimal temperature is?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #19213647 - 12/01/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Look up "D-casing". It's not much different than what you're doing and has proven to be unreliable.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
But, unless you post some pics of your success, nobody should listen to you.

Sometimes stuff works, but it's not best practice.







The vid doesn't exist, maybe you can sum it up, but I'd be willing to wager that since it is proven to be unviable that there is a fundamental difference.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213659 - 12/01/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
The vid doesn't exist, maybe you can sum it up, but I'd be willing to wager that since it is proven to be unviable that there is a fundamental difference.




There is a difference, one is proven unreliable, the other is just unproven :shrug: Why do you want everyone to take you at your word? I don't even expect that IRL.

Trust me people . . . I'm a doctor


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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix]
    #19213662 - 12/01/13 04:50 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Look up "D-casing". It's not much different than what you're doing and has proven to be unreliable.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
But, unless you post some pics of your success, nobody should listen to you.

Sometimes stuff works, but it's not best practice.







The vid doesn't exist, maybe you can sum it up, but I'd be willing to wager that since it is proven to be unviable that there is a fundamental difference.




The fundamental difference is that somebody's actually tried it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: PussyFart]
    #19213666 - 12/01/13 04:51 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

teknix said:
If it was being sterilized and had 2 barriers there is no reason not to incubate at optimal temperatures.



Optimal temps are mid 70s throughout the whole grow, but anywhere from 65F-80F is acceptable.

Incubation is outdated/uneeded unless temps in the range stated above cannot be kept.

The inside of the jar is always a few degrees warmer than the outside because the mycellium produces heat..mycellium tends to stall at temps above 86F , and contams thrive.




Temperature doesn't cause contams, they pop up because it wasn't sterile in the first place or your jar lets them in. In which case you should probably remedy your error, rather than changing what temperature is optimal, because in reality you don't change or make an optimal temperature, optimal temperatures are observed.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: Psilicon]
    #19213673 - 12/01/13 04:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Look up "D-casing". It's not much different than what you're doing and has proven to be unreliable.

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
But, unless you post some pics of your success, nobody should listen to you.

Sometimes stuff works, but it's not best practice.







The vid doesn't exist, maybe you can sum it up, but I'd be willing to wager that since it is proven to be unviable that there is a fundamental difference.




The fundamental difference is that somebody's actually tried it.




Come on now, do you really think I haven't tried it?


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: THE Oven Tek. No PC for Bulk tubs/trays. [Re: teknix] * 1
    #19213688 - 12/01/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hey I tried to bench press a bus the other day, found out that it was easy! Everyone should give it a shot.


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