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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Sivarted]
    #22630400 - 12/08/15 03:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that.
Also you don't want gas exchange when you don't want moisture loss.  When your grain substrate in colonization is your final fruiting substrate, the top of the grains is your fruiting surface.  It's important to keep it extra healthy.
In such a grow method, reducing/eliminating moisture loss is a good thing.  When there's enough air in almost all of our grows to complete colonization (and then some, in many respects such as my methods), there's no advantage to be had from letting it go.
In fact, retaining that CO2 environment not only means retaining moisture but maintaining colonization conditions and allowing a harder shift to fruiting conditions when the time comes.

Gas exchange is actually required for nearly nothing.

The filters are really only there for gas exchange in the pressure cooking cycle for classic metal jar lids which would otherwise be air-tight.  Though for some grows, like slower-colonizing inoculations of quart size jars or larger or for truffles, it is advantageous or necessary to have air exchange.  But even then, air exchange COULD be given manually much more infrequently than occurs steadily through a filter.
etc etc etc


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Violet]
    #22630606 - 12/08/15 04:30 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly, it's not like we're filling grain spawn jars or pp5 containers to the top. I use 2.25 cups of hydrated grain per quart jar. That gives me about a half of a jar of air for something that takes 7-10 days to colonize, not to mention all the air in between each grain kernel. Since I use plastic lids and I have a sleeve of them unopened, I will give the unfiltered plastic lids a run.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: insanemike]
    #22630685 - 12/08/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

While I don't like adding filters to the ziploc screw tops used for fruiting various substrate mixes, for these it's essential. While agar can be done in the ziploc screw tops, I still greatly prefer these for many reasons mainly size, handling, storage, the ability to drop a colonized wedge straight into a jar, not to mention the ergonomic advantages which are huge when handling them in a SAB.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I don't care what tek or method people use, pour agar, no pour,  jars or plastic, ziploc or glad, what matters is people are doing agar. The rest is all preference and preference requires selection.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22630698 - 12/08/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Violet just to fill you in, eatyualive is doing tests where he makes a brf/cornmeal paste in the round, let's it colonize, then drops it in a jar of sterilized water with a blender attachment. Blend and pour for instant liquid inoculate.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22630812 - 12/08/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Oh cool.  I wonder though how it would be significantly different than doing the same thing but with just the agar puck?  Is the thought that it would just have a bit more mycelium dug into the surface and/or aireal above it?  That it would break up and mix most easily with the least pulsing?  Sorry if this is the wrong place.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Violet]
    #22630833 - 12/08/15 05:35 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

There's 180 pages of this thread.  Not like anyone is going to read it all :smile:  Either they'll search the thread or not read it and ask again.

At least with the cornmeal plates, the mycellial growth is INCREDIBLY thick, probably about as thick as a quarter, if not a little more.

While my cornmeal LI recovery times haven't been that inspiring for me yet, the mycellium gets EVERYWHERE.  You should try it with one of your chia seed plates.  Might be bomb city for PF-tekers with no PC.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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OfflineCapMeh
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22631007 - 12/08/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Just becoming familiar with your tek Violet, and I don't see you mention foil during the PC. Don't they need to be wrapped? Referring to the twist top containers of course.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: CapMeh]
    #22631075 - 12/08/15 06:43 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

They do not need foil.

The purpose of foil, as I understand it, is to keep filter materials dry and injection ports clean before use.  In my experience, it is also a waste of time with tyvek or SFD, as long as it isn't sunken into a lid, where pooling water will flood it.  Even then, I find shit is usually wet anyway, and the foil just stops it from drying.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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OfflineSivarted
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22631177 - 12/08/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Huh, interesting.  I just always read that gas exchange is necessary, so I install it the easiest way I know how, holes with poly stuffing.  Thanks for provoking the thoughts. :smile:


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Violet]
    #22632262 - 12/08/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Oh cool.  I wonder though how it would be significantly different than doing the same thing but with just the agar puck?  Is the thought that it would just have a bit more mycelium dug into the surface and/or aireal above it?  That it would break up and mix most easily with the least pulsing?  Sorry if this is the wrong place.




The brf plate and cornmeal mush plate visibly show thicker, healthier growth than on agar which leads to quicker recovery and increased colonization speed. It maybe even more beneficial to make flour out of the grain that one uses for spawn. Especially since the culture wouldn't have to change metabolism to account for a different nutritional profile. I'm not sure what other's think but that's my thought process anyway.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Sivarted]
    #22632356 - 12/08/15 10:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sivarted said:
Huh, interesting.  I just always read that gas exchange is necessary, so I install it the easiest way I know how, holes with poly stuffing.  Thanks for provoking the thoughts. :smile:



Yep!
Yeah there have always been a lot of such things.  It seems as if one of my major roles in these forums is breaking up those sort of myths, often simply the results of methodologies sticking within certain patterns and not exploring deviations.  They're commonly held beliefs that have emerged from the contexts of the developing understanding of cultivation 'mycology' on these forums.  Pinning triggers is a big one, for instance.
There are several which are even still quite pervasive, some of which are even held onto quite rigidly... even to the point of causing conflicts when they are challenged...  It's true this place is the most intellectually and informationally advanced and accurate about the cultivation process, but it also comes with its fair share of rigidness even when the time comes to bend.
Rambling over.


Now I do have to mention that there can come incidents where gas exchange becomes necessary, such as in the case of slower inoculations and/or with (too) few inoculation points.  These could result in stalling.  But even in such cases, there are alternatives (except for the classic metal lids and these mini-rounds etc), namely the slight cracking of screw-top lids (such exist for jars too!), even if only temporarily.

I had to mention it, yet at the same time I have not really ever seen such a problem in my hundreds of hundreds of air-tight Ziploc container grow-outs.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


Edited by Violet (12/09/15 08:07 AM)


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Violet]
    #22632620 - 12/09/15 12:02 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

From what I've seen so far, a 1/4" PF plate would probably give the most mycellium.  Cornmeal or BRF PF would be fine.  Even if it doesn't fully colonize, it's not like the cornmeal or BRF plates are fully colonized, so even say 75% penetrative colonization and 100% surface colonization would probably take the same time as it does for a cornmeal plate, but yield much more mycellium.

From what I've seen, the mycellium is happier on PF substrate than cornmeal.  Downside is you can't see what's going on as well.  Shaking the agar wedge over the PF plate also seems to work nicely to inoculate it better, but I didn't have luck with it on cornmeal for some reason.  Maybe something about the glazed surface.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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InvisibleKalistis
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Registered: 09/06/15
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22632649 - 12/09/15 12:18 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I started with Petri plates but when I ran out unexpectedly and needed plates in a pinch, pasty's plates served their purpose. I would be an entire week behind waiting for my ordered Petri dishes. I used the mini rounds, found it super easy to modify the containers, and got very little condensation. They have their place in my supply drawer.


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22632662 - 12/09/15 12:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I have not used brf plates yet but I would like to see the difference for myself. You maybe right in the fact that the mycelium might possibly penetrate the brf much more than it does the cornmeal which would yield more mycelium. But the difference would only be because the brf is naturally more airy with the added vermiculite. If this is the case, you could easily substitute the brown rice for the cornmeal when using the typical brf recipe.

I'm not sure if the culture would be happier on the brf but I also can not compare the 2 because I've only used cornmeal for a 2 dimensional medium where as the pf cakes that I've grown were a 3 dimensional medium.

Wouldn't shaking a wedge all over any type of plate make it difficult to discriminate between healthy mushroom mycelial growth and contamininant mold mycelium? The purpose of having a 2d surface for growth is so that we can determine such things. This only works when we couple that with dropping a wedge onto the center of the plate which gives us a more predictable growth pattern. Dropping a wedge onto the center of the cornmeal plate and first letting it recover on the agar wedge seems to work like a charm everytime.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: insanemike]
    #22632702 - 12/09/15 12:57 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Depends how confident you are in your sterile work I guess.  It isn't scarier than dropping a wedge into a grain master for g2g/slurry, and you can really see the PF plate fairly well, especially since something nasty at the top has a good chance of making it to the bottom.

From my experiments, I would say cube mycellium LOVES cornmeal based PF substrate.  It also appears to steam sterilize without endospores.  I honestly haven't made too many BRF based cakes, made a lot of Rye base PF subs.  I fucking hate that endospore riddled glutenous crap.  Awful.

I would attribute the love of cornmeal to an even less pasty texture than BRF based PF sub.  No offense OP.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22632725 - 12/09/15 01:10 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I need to make some transfers of texas yellow and texas orange cap later today. Spores seemed to germinate just as quickly on the cornmeal as it does on agar. I am really interested in trying the cornmeal based pf plate and think that is what I'll do.

It's not that unpredictable growth on agar is scarier than dropping a wedge into a grain jar. It's just that it's the last chance to reassure myself that the culture is clean before making the transfer to grain. So that if contamination does occur on grain, I'm not trying to guess at what stage I let the contamination in.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: insanemike]
    #22632746 - 12/09/15 01:24 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I feel it.  I'm just impatient, mostly cause my agar growth is slow AF for indeterminant reasons.  My cornmeal PF cake had like a good 1/4+ that wasn't hit with spore solution at all, and the mycellium is chomping through it faster than I've seen it grow through a cake before.  Because of the texture/granuels, it may be like using a lower flour quantity in a normal cake as far as texture goes.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22632765 - 12/09/15 01:38 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
I feel it.  I'm just impatient, mostly cause my agar growth is slow AF for indeterminant reasons.  My cornmeal PF cake had like a good 1/4+ that wasn't hit with spore solution at all, and the mycellium is chomping through it faster than I've seen it grow through a cake before.  Because of the texture/granuels, it may be like using a lower flour quantity in a normal cake as far as texture goes.




You have brought up some very good points and you really have me thinking now. I was so concerned with water to flour ratios when making cornmeal mush plates that I never really thought about how important texture could be. :thumbup:


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Offlinepsylosis
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Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: insanemike]
    #22633963 - 12/09/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I have a question: will these glad mini rounds melt in my PC if they are on the metal rack thing that keeps them off of the bottom of the PC?


--------------------
Ride the spiral to the end,
You may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out,
Keep going.


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Invisibleinsanemike
Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
Re: Pasty Agar Tek [Re: psylosis]
    #22633978 - 12/09/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No.


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