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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19476434 - 01/26/14 12:01 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:


It is important that we have some type of regulatory laws, especially environmental, and we have to weigh the risks and the pro's of the project, If a pipe bursts oil in the gulf, then that puts a economic dent on shrimpers, fishermen and others who make their living off the environment. If only their was a way to regulate, but not force, maybe make incentives for business to go cleaner and put out less pollutants.




This is why we have a torts system where you can sue the living shit out of somebody who causes you harm.  There are millions of those suits occurring at any given time.




and of course to win a lawsuit you need to have a good lawyer that you can pay a ton of money. Same bullshit as always poor idiots get thrown against the wall, people with millions can get away with murder. Our legal system is more manipulated then OJ Simpsons trail, oh wait........... no it's not they are two sides of the same coin


If there is enough damage and deep enough pockets lawyers will beg for the chance to sue on a contingency basis.  They do it all the time.  You don't have a fucking clue.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
anyone in favour of replacing minimum wage laws with collective bargaining laws that cover everyone?

"Switzerland, as a country, actually does not have a minimum wage written into law. It does have collective bargaining agreements between its workers and management and almost the entire population is covered by it. The minimum salary of skilled workers ranges from 2,800 to 5,300 Swiss francs, while that of unskilled workers may be anywhere between 2,200 to 4,200 Swiss francs."

http://www.therichest.com/business/the-top-10-countries-with-the-highest-minimum-wages/

Or is that just another sour form of regulation replacing current sour form of regulations? How about it, can anyone here be a man and compromise?



I'll support collective bargaining for employees when employers get the same right.




They do have the same right. It's called the free market they can do whatever the fuck they want, set whatever prices they want, hire or fire as many people as they want. Europe doesn't even HAVE the same liberal system of business laws e.g. "free market" rituals we have and still employees are more fair paid, are you telling me it'd be a more terrible situation in this country? Give up minimum wage pay or give up collective bargaining and raise the minimum wage, I don't see how you can have your cake and eat it too




They can't set prices.  People will stop buying.  And we certainly can hire and fire anybody we want for pretty much any reason we want.  If I feel like it, I can fire somebody just because I don't like him.  And no, the companies are not allowed to collude to set labor costs.  Your ignorance of the law astounds.
Quote:



Quote:

starfire_xes said:
How many people live in Switzerland?
What is the average educational level of those people?
Do they let millions of unskilled workers in that keep down the wages of the low-paying jobs by creating a surplus of workers?




I thought that was supposed to be a bad thing everyone in this country was complaining about that nobody wants anymore? Are you saying we should let everyone over the fence now to set a better model against everyone else?




:facepalm:  Reading comprehension = F.


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19476768 - 01/26/14 01:11 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Going along with a stupid idea is compromise?

Huh.




so what's a better idea? In this world where high prices stop true economic growth e.g. houses sell for WAY too high and one family moves into it for 900k instead of each family member getting their own house for 200k, and 1.2 million in houses would be sold instead, simply because of 30 year mortgages and what people are WILLING TO PAY FOR, you would prefer all the hard working labourers ahem I mean "bums" to continue working at a poverty level and no real money being distributed and only high level corporations earning the profit simply because it's POSSIBLE that "people will work harder then they are now, instead of 55 hours a week they will work 85 hours a week, show they are more skilled and earn more and have better lives"? :smirk:

Do you realize The Netherlands has a minimum wage at equivalent $23,000 per year and no drug laws?

http://www.therichest.com/business/the-top-10-countries-with-the-highest-minimum-wages/10/

Do you honestly think the United States is still the most liberal and progressive company now? Maybe we are because of a monopoly on international trading over the last 50 something years but I see a great trend of improvement in quality of life in socialist countries in Europe, especially compared to how well the countries were 50 years ago let's say in 1954. Back in the day socialism was a sour cut on the face of the world often compared to communism. Today it may not at all be the high quality of life here in the U.S. but if it keeps improving at the rate it's been especially compared to how it was a long time ago, it could very well be a system of government much better then what we call capitalism.

I will admit that Europe barely has the liberal business policies in general the U.S. has, it's not as easy to start a business there and have a huge chain of Burger Kings one day, but that may one day change if things keep improving at the pace they are improving at over there




I asked a simple question. You responded with a rambling load of nonsense.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
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Posts: 31,375
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #19477199 - 01/26/14 02:59 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Going along with a stupid idea is compromise?

Huh.




so what's a better idea? In this world where high prices stop true economic growth e.g. houses sell for WAY too high and one family moves into it for 900k instead of each family member getting their own house for 200k, and 1.2 million in houses would be sold instead, simply because of 30 year mortgages and what people are WILLING TO PAY FOR, you would prefer all the hard working labourers ahem I mean "bums" to continue working at a poverty level and no real money being distributed and only high level corporations earning the profit simply because it's POSSIBLE that "people will work harder then they are now, instead of 55 hours a week they will work 85 hours a week, show they are more skilled and earn more and have better lives"? :smirk:

Do you realize The Netherlands has a minimum wage at equivalent $23,000 per year and no drug laws?

http://www.therichest.com/business/the-top-10-countries-with-the-highest-minimum-wages/10/

Do you honestly think the United States is still the most liberal and progressive company now? Maybe we are because of a monopoly on international trading over the last 50 something years but I see a great trend of improvement in quality of life in socialist countries in Europe, especially compared to how well the countries were 50 years ago let's say in 1954. Back in the day socialism was a sour cut on the face of the world often compared to communism. Today it may not at all be the high quality of life here in the U.S. but if it keeps improving at the rate it's been especially compared to how it was a long time ago, it could very well be a system of government much better then what we call capitalism.

I will admit that Europe barely has the liberal business policies in general the U.S. has, it's not as easy to start a business there and have a huge chain of Burger Kings one day, but that may one day change if things keep improving at the pace they are improving at over there




I asked a simple question. You responded with a rambling load of nonsense.




And you have this stupid idea that our system is better then socialist countries in europe based on

A load of rambling nonsense? Wealth equality was vastly superior to the U.S. in the 50s. Now all I hear about is nonsense of povery over there. What is poverty in Europe? People who work their ass off and get paid better? The only argument that is made constantly that is hard to disagree with is how much easier it is to start a business in the U.S. then Europe and how because of this people are less motivated to do business in Europe as well as not favoring high taxes.

You know how much I give a shit? I dont. 50 years ago you didnt have serious as shit business expenses of running a lemonade stand as well as needing 50 permits in the U.S. Is there more freedom in the U.S.? Yes. Are wage raises the main cause of ridiculous business over head and will cause huge unemployment? No. Zappa said it himself he can fire someone whenever he wants how is a wage raise going to effect that? Unproven bigotry among employers using excuses?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlinestarfire_xes
I Am 'They'
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Registered: 10/24/09
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Last seen: 7 months, 1 day
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19477243 - 01/26/14 03:11 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
we have as much debt as anybody we just have better contingencies against financial crisis then they do e.g. bail outs and borrowing trillions from China etc.





China isn't lending us money anymore that stopped a couple of years ago.  they nor anyone else trusts us, so the Government is just printing money.
Quote:

imachavel said:


I thought that was supposed to be a bad thing everyone in this country was complaining about that nobody wants anymore? Are you saying we should let everyone over the fence now to set a better model against everyone else?




No.  I'm saying the situation is much different in Switzerland than in the US.  What works for them doesn't necessarily work for us.

within the US it is the same--one size fits all doesn't work.  Whats good policy for New York might be bad policy for Colorado, etc.  that's why we have soverign states.

Things like Obamacare are a one-size fits all policy that helps a few and hurts many.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19477248 - 01/26/14 03:12 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

It has nothing to do with bigotry.  If you're a pain in my ass you're gone


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19477515 - 01/26/14 04:13 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Going along with a stupid idea is compromise?

Huh.




so what's a better idea? In this world where high prices stop true economic growth e.g. houses sell for WAY too high and one family moves into it for 900k instead of each family member getting their own house for 200k, and 1.2 million in houses would be sold instead, simply because of 30 year mortgages and what people are WILLING TO PAY FOR, you would prefer all the hard working labourers ahem I mean "bums" to continue working at a poverty level and no real money being distributed and only high level corporations earning the profit simply because it's POSSIBLE that "people will work harder then they are now, instead of 55 hours a week they will work 85 hours a week, show they are more skilled and earn more and have better lives"? :smirk:

Do you realize The Netherlands has a minimum wage at equivalent $23,000 per year and no drug laws?

http://www.therichest.com/business/the-top-10-countries-with-the-highest-minimum-wages/10/

Do you honestly think the United States is still the most liberal and progressive company now? Maybe we are because of a monopoly on international trading over the last 50 something years but I see a great trend of improvement in quality of life in socialist countries in Europe, especially compared to how well the countries were 50 years ago let's say in 1954. Back in the day socialism was a sour cut on the face of the world often compared to communism. Today it may not at all be the high quality of life here in the U.S. but if it keeps improving at the rate it's been especially compared to how it was a long time ago, it could very well be a system of government much better then what we call capitalism.

I will admit that Europe barely has the liberal business policies in general the U.S. has, it's not as easy to start a business there and have a huge chain of Burger Kings one day, but that may one day change if things keep improving at the pace they are improving at over there




I asked a simple question. You responded with a rambling load of nonsense.




And you have this stupid idea that our system is better then socialist countries in europe based on

A load of rambling nonsense? Wealth equality was vastly superior to the U.S. in the 50s. Now all I hear about is nonsense of povery over there. What is poverty in Europe? People who work their ass off and get paid better? The only argument that is made constantly that is hard to disagree with is how much easier it is to start a business in the U.S. then Europe and how because of this people are less motivated to do business in Europe as well as not favoring high taxes.

You know how much I give a shit? I dont. 50 years ago you didnt have serious as shit business expenses of running a lemonade stand as well as needing 50 permits in the U.S. Is there more freedom in the U.S.? Yes. Are wage raises the main cause of ridiculous business over head and will cause huge unemployment? No. Zappa said it himself he can fire someone whenever he wants how is a wage raise going to effect that? Unproven bigotry among employers using excuses?




Meth is bad.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineimachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
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Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19477561 - 01/26/14 04:21 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It has nothing to do with bigotry.  If you're a pain in my ass you're gone




Right but firing people over a wage raise when they can afford it is purely discriminatory, despite the descrimination only being over employees working more poorly and sweating harder.

I agree with starfire xes that sovereignity is the best method while regulating buy Id have MUCH rather seen a wage raise then this obama care crap, despite the fact obama care is indeed only helping a few. Even if the few are being GREATLY helped, including a few I know getting life saving surgery through Obama care they previously couldnt afford


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19477612 - 01/26/14 04:31 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
discriminatory, descrimination




“You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19477649 - 01/26/14 04:37 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
It has nothing to do with bigotry.  If you're a pain in my ass you're gone




Right but firing people over a wage raise when they can afford it is purely discriminatory, despite the descrimination only being over employees working more poorly and sweating harder.




What does me being able to afford paying you more have to do with my obligation to pay more than I get somebody else for?  What does "afford" mean, anyway?  If I am a single childless man who's wife makes a million dollars a year does that mean my employees should get paid more just because I don't need the money?


--------------------


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InvisibleEchro
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Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 390
Loc: SoCal
Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: imachavel]
    #19478518 - 01/26/14 07:22 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
people could AFFORD health care if medical facilities charged less,



It's not the facilities, it's the insurance policies. The high prices are primarily inflated through insurance. When other people are footing the bill, you can charge almost anything you want. Socialization/Mandate of insurance isn't going to make it any cheaper.


--------------------
"People who take Life seriously are going to find it slipping through their fingers in a very maddening fashion." ~ Terence McKenna

"You still want to go on living on your knees. But I have understood life.
And anyone who understands life cannot live on his knees." ~ Renzo Novatore


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: Echro]
    #19479269 - 01/26/14 10:27 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Now zappa the carpenter is an expert on law too :lolsy:



Frivolous suit man, look it up. You can also get counter sued out the ass.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: elax420]
    #19480096 - 01/27/14 04:51 AM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Countersued for what?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #19481515 - 01/27/14 02:10 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Bzzzt reset...

Yes business is corrupting politics (politicians), of course.
Time to kick their (politicians) arse !

Bzzzt...end reset... carry on...


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: Enlil]
    #19482451 - 01/27/14 05:25 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Countersued for what?





Bringing forward a frivolous lawsuit.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: elax420]
    #19482462 - 01/27/14 05:27 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

You clearly haven't the first clue what you're talking about.  You can't countersue for that.


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: Enlil]
    #19482509 - 01/27/14 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You clearly haven't the first clue what you're talking about.  You can't countersue for that.





You clearly don’t either man, or else you wouldn’t be a public defender :smilingpuppy:

You can sue for anything, and ____ multinational corporation's legal team is going to win in most cases. What are you even trying to argue? That its a good idea to to bring frivolous suits against companies that have ungodly amounts of money burn?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: elax420]
    #19482523 - 01/27/14 05:43 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

First, I don't agree it would be frivolous, and I'm confident a court would not find it frivolous.  Second, I'm not a public defender anymore.


--------------------
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Ask an Attorney

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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: Enlil]
    #19482588 - 01/27/14 05:55 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, I don't agree it would be frivolous, and I'm confident a court would not find it frivolous.  Second, I'm not a public defender anymore.





Good decision man.

I don’t exactly know what case we are referring to, all i was responding to i that zappa is trying to act like its a good idea to bring suits against multinationals.


Unless you have a pretty solid case, its not going to be pleasant and you may very well find yourself in hot water.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: elax420]
    #19482617 - 01/27/14 06:03 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Huge corporations are sued all the time.  They almost always settle early because they know it's cheaper than paying attorney's fees to fight a protracted battle.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Government Vs. Business What Are Your Views? [Re: Enlil]
    #19482631 - 01/27/14 06:08 PM (10 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Huge corporations are sued all the time.  They almost always settle early because they know it's cheaper than paying attorney's fees to fight a protracted battle.





True, but you are only showing one side of the story man. They settle because its mutually beneficial. After Depositions, Discoveries, Exams blah blah blah plaintiff is gonna get fucked.


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